Rand's gender hierarchy

[Selene]

Darrell:

You are a forensic pathologist?

Adam

[Matus1976]

A man's relationship to any particular entity depends on his differentiating set of characteristics and the differentiating set of the characteristics of the other entity.

I think that's an overtly limiting definition of relationship, and not the context of relationship that Rand meant, or is your 'relationship' to your sig other merely a description of your physically differentiating characteristics, i.e. height, weight, gonads, brests, etc? Perhaps if you were a taxonomist that kind of 'relationship' would be what was of most interest.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Matus1976

[Selene]

quote name='Michelle R' date='16 July 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1247772152' post='75386']

Xray, you should hide your excitement about this topic a little bit. It's indecent.

You sound a bit prim, Michelle. "Indecent", lol. Are we in Sunday school here?

Ayn Rand's gender hierarchy is also evident in her novels, surely you won't dispute this?

But it looks like bringing this up always causes vehement emotional reactions.

That said, Dagny Taggart is one of the best role-models for women that you'll find in modern literature. She is not "subservient" to the men in the novel. Most of Rand's hero-worship rubbish is left out of ATLAS SHRUGGED, anyway.

Dagny Taggart is a subservient hero worshiper if there ever was one. Remember how for example she voluntarily offers her services to John Galt as his "cook and housemaid", feeling the "eager, desperate, tremulous hope of the a young girl on her first job: the hope that she would be able to deserve it."

Remember Rand explicity said she had modeled Dagny after herself, so it was only natural that she would make her a hero worshiper too.

As for the male heros in her novels - they all were more or less recreations of "Cyrus", a fantasy adventure story hero Rand got infatuated with as a young girl, mixed with traits of "Leo", the unresponsive real-life object of her desire.

Have you read Barbara Branden's book "The Passion of Ayn Rand"?

As for picking role models from fiction: do you think this serves to develop one's individuality?

Oh? Does one stop being a lady when one no longer attends Sunday School?

Cut the pseudo-psych. Dagny is certainly not "subservient." John Galt, to Dagny, is the perfect man. And this perfect creatures saves her life. Of course she's going to be respectful and slightly awed in his presence, and offer her services to him. Or are you one of those people who thinks that domestic activity degrades a woman? It's not like she becomes his loyal housewife (although, if this is what she wanted, what would there be wrong in that?). She sets about rebuilding her railroad at the end of the novel. Dagny is not subservient or docile.

My reaction to John Galt would be a bit different. I'd be feeling around his head for the battery case.

I didn't say one should adopt fictional role-models. I said: Dagny Taggart is one of the best role-models for women that you'll find in modern literature

Ahh that is why Galt is such a stud he is battery operated...however, I think you have to search a little lower for the battery package. B)

[Michelle]

quote name='Michelle R' date='16 July 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1247772152' post='75386']

Xray, you should hide your excitement about this topic a little bit. It's indecent.

You sound a bit prim, Michelle. "Indecent", lol. Are we in Sunday school here?

Ayn Rand's gender hierarchy is also evident in her novels, surely you won't dispute this?

But it looks like bringing this up always causes vehement emotional reactions.

That said, Dagny Taggart is one of the best role-models for women that you'll find in modern literature. She is not "subservient" to the men in the novel. Most of Rand's hero-worship rubbish is left out of ATLAS SHRUGGED, anyway.

Dagny Taggart is a subservient hero worshiper if there ever was one. Remember how for example she voluntarily offers her services to John Galt as his "cook and housemaid", feeling the "eager, desperate, tremulous hope of the a young girl on her first job: the hope that she would be able to deserve it."

Remember Rand explicity said she had modeled Dagny after herself, so it was only natural that she would make her a hero worshiper too.

As for the male heros in her novels - they all were more or less recreations of "Cyrus", a fantasy adventure story hero Rand got infatuated with as a young girl, mixed with traits of "Leo", the unresponsive real-life object of her desire.

Have you read Barbara Branden's book "The Passion of Ayn Rand"?

As for picking role models from fiction: do you think this serves to develop one's individuality?

Oh? Does one stop being a lady when one no longer attends Sunday School?

Cut the pseudo-psych. Dagny is certainly not "subservient." John Galt, to Dagny, is the perfect man. And this perfect creatures saves her life. Of course she's going to be respectful and slightly awed in his presence, and offer her services to him. Or are you one of those people who thinks that domestic activity degrades a woman? It's not like she becomes his loyal housewife (although, if this is what she wanted, what would there be wrong in that?). She sets about rebuilding her railroad at the end of the novel. Dagny is not subservient or docile.

My reaction to John Galt would be a bit different. I'd be feeling around his head for the battery case.

I didn't say one should adopt fictional role-models. I said: Dagny Taggart is one of the best role-models for women that you'll find in modern literature

Ahh that is why Galt is such a stud he is battery operated...however, I think you have to search a little lower for the battery package. B)

I mean he's a robot. Of all the men in ATLAS SHRUGGED, he is the only one who never gives me much of any kind of impression. Oh great, he's perfect. Whoopee! I'd take a hottie like Francisco over Galtbot 2000 anyday.

[Brant Gaede]

Everybody's gone orgasmic. Ah, the living, breathing vitality of Objectivist Living! Enjoy!

--Brant

Dagny can be on top

[Selene]

Brant...

Dagny would have to fight xray for the top position ... Michelle will be the referee.

Adam

Post script: xray would try to "top" from the bottom anyway.

[Brant Gaede]

A three-some? A four-some? Only in America! (You have to come here; I'm not going there.) "Oh, no, what I say, women superior in every way!"

--Brant

[Darrell Hougen]

Darrell:

You are a forensic pathologist?

Adam

No. I write software that automatically analyzes and matches fingerprints. The end user might be a forensic pathologist.

My comments weren't entirely clear, taken alone, but the context was a discussion of writing optical character recognition (OCR) software. My contention is that writing OCR software is no more difficult than what I do every day which is to write fingerprint analysis software.

Darrell

[Selene]

Darrell:

You are a forensic pathologist?

Adam

No. I write software that automatically analyzes and matches fingerprints. The end user might be a forensic pathologist.

My comments weren't entirely clear, taken alone, but the context was a discussion of writing optical character recognition (OCR) software. My contention is that writing OCR software is no more difficult than what I do every day which is to write fingerprint analysis software.

Darrell

Darrell:

Thanks for the clarification. My father was a NYC Fire Marshall for 8-10 years, so I always ask questions lol. Did not mean to pry.

Fascinating field you are in. Essentially, you write the software that could take the print, once "elevated" visually, by treating the area over the stamp where the person would press the stamp onto the envelope and that would be used as evidence?

Adam

[tjohnson]

No. I write software that automatically analyzes and matches fingerprints. The end user might be a forensic pathologist.

My comments weren't entirely clear, taken alone, but the context was a discussion of writing optical character recognition (OCR) software. My contention is that writing OCR software is no more difficult than what I do every day which is to write fingerprint analysis software.

Darrell

Interesting, I suppose that would involve "connecting the dots" to form contour lines? Then comparing to known contours from a database? If so, that does sound very similar. Of course there is a lot more to it than recognizing characters, there is a learning algorithm that improves the guess with user input, formatting etc. But it sounds like you would have the "guts" of it already.

[Dragonfly]

I like a challenge. Do you think it would be harder than recovering the fingerprint in this image including marking the ridge endings and bifurcations?

The recognition of text in itself may not be harder, but writing a program on your own that can compete with current commercial OCR programs may be very hard, as it encompasses much more than just recognizing letters and words, for example translating the layout, no matter how complex, to a similar looking layout in Word, WP, PDF, HTML, XLS, PPT etc., supporting some 150 different languages, etc. Perhaps none of which is in itself really difficult, but all together it's just an enormous amount of work and before you have a complete program that does it all smoothly and efficiently... What may be feasible is trying to find just a better recognition kernel for an OCR program, although that may involve reinventing the wheel (which can be fun, I know - many years ago when I was working on some programs for signal processing, I "discovered" a useful digital filter, it was only later that I found that I had rediscovered the Hamming filter...). Also many years ago (at the time of the first personal computers) I was asked if I could develop PC software for speech recognition. It seemed an interesting challenge (especially with the low speeds and small memories of PC's at the time), but I didn't have the time then, and I've no illusion that I now could ever compete with the software teams working in that domain.

[Darrell Hougen]

Fascinating field you are in. Essentially, you write the software that could take the print, once "elevated" visually, by treating the area over the stamp where the person would press the stamp onto the envelope and that would be used as evidence?

Yes. Many of our customers are police departments. The crime scene investigators raise a fingerprint using fingerprint powder or other techniques from a stamp, envelope, check, desk, door knob, or just about any other surface and take a picture of it which becomes a digital image. In the past, a picture would be scanned using a scanner, but these days the police have digital cameras that create digital images directly. Our software is used to quickly scan a large database of prints for possible matches. A human expert then examines the images returned by the system to see if any of them actually matches the latent, crime scene print.

Darrell

[Darrell Hougen]

Interesting, I suppose that would involve "connecting the dots" to form contour lines? Then comparing to known contours from a database? If so, that does sound very similar. Of course there is a lot more to it than recognizing characters, there is a learning algorithm that improves the guess with user input, formatting etc. But it sounds like you would have the "guts" of it already.

Connecting the dots would be one approach. I can't discuss the methods we actually use, for obvious reasons. Also, technically, I would have to start from scratch since the software I have developed for fingerprint analysis belongs to my employer. However, I could use similar techniques.

Darrell

[Darrell Hougen]

The recognition of text in itself may not be harder, but writing a program on your own that can compete with current commercial OCR programs may be very hard, as it encompasses much more than just recognizing letters and words, for example translating the layout, no matter how complex, to a similar looking layout in Word, WP, PDF, HTML, XLS, PPT etc., supporting some 150 different languages, etc. Perhaps none of which is in itself really difficult, but all together it's just an enormous amount of work and before you have a complete program that does it all smoothly and efficiently... What may be feasible is trying to find just a better recognition kernel for an OCR program, although that may involve reinventing the wheel (which can be fun, I know - many years ago when I was working on some programs for signal processing, I "discovered" a useful digital filter, it was only later that I found that I had rediscovered the Hamming filter...). Also many years ago (at the time of the first personal computers) I was asked if I could develop PC software for speech recognition. It seemed an interesting challenge (especially with the low speeds and small memories of PC's at the time), but I didn't have the time then, and I've no illusion that I now could ever compete with the software teams working in that domain.

One way to compete is to offer a product for a lower price. I agree that it would be difficult to read a large number of image formats, process a large number of languages, and output the result in a large number of output formats. I don't really know if I would have a viable business model -- selling a simple package that reads a limited number of formats, processes only English, and outputs a single output format, for example, but at a much lower price than the current products on the market. But it might be interesting to try.

Darrell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Darrell,

Here are a few ideas outside the box. If you are a single developer without funding, it might be worthwhile to think outside (i.e., according to Information Age—instead of the Industrial Age—market models).

1. Do not think of an OCR only program. There are oodles of them on the market and you would be simply one more. Think of OCR as a feature of another program or bundled in another package. That way you can limit the language easily and go higher-end.

Just as a throw-away idea to give you an example, Internet marketers go ape over public domain works. They repackage these in a number of way and often they make entirely new products out of them under other author names. The idea of scanning entire old books, magazines, periodicals, etc., that have not made the way to Gutenberg.org yet is too daunting for many. However, using a digital camera or a 50 bucks Flip video camera on that stuff is not. If you could get a hook-up with an OCR thing, I believe you would be able to charge a good amount of money for a bundled product package, with training videos and the works. (I.e., The product could be something like: 1. How to see what is available at the library, 2. How to research niches with this knowledge, 3. How to idealize a product, 4. Check out the public domain works, scan and OCR them, 5. How to make the products, 6. How to set up a site and sales structure and promote it. This package could consist of videos, pdf files, software, mindmaps, etc.)

Obviously you would need to work with other developers for some of these ideas, and that leads to my second point.

2. There are sites like www.rentacoder.com where you can find them. (Elance and Guru also run a lot of coding and software development work, but there are many others out there.) You would have to bop around these sites to see what you can find, but since there are buyers looking for stuff to be developed, you could also make custom OCR solutions for hire. You can even advertise that you do this and go the freelancer route.

3. Probably the most profitable idea is to set up a site selling something far more lucrative (say, in the dating, weight-loss, dog training, golf, etc., niches), and use a freeware OCR program to promote it. You can use it as a bonus for opt-in autoresponder list marketing, for example.

Or here is another rather sneaky idea (and I think a far better one). If you know how to do your keyword research correctly, you know that getting quality backlinks is the heart of site promotion in search engine rankings. If you make an OCR freeware with a correctly formatted PAD file (which will contain a link to your money site), you can distribute it to gazillions of freeware sites in a short amount of time. Google considers these sites to be very high quality, not spam. So Google will reward you with high ranking. Thus you could get a ton of free traffic from major keyword searches because you will be on the first page of search results.

Your OCR program could literally sell dog food advice for big bucks. Don't laugh. TV shows do this all the time through commercials. This way merely inverts the direction.

If people actually use your program, that's even better. You can make up some kind of promotion where they put your link on their sites, say if they want support.

I could probably think of more stuff, but that's enough right now.

btw - I think what you do is cool.

Michael

[Xray]

A man's relationship to any particular entity depends on his differentiating set of characteristics and the differentiating set of the characteristics of the other entity.

I think that's an overtly limiting definition of relationship, and not the context of relationship that Rand meant, or is your 'relationship' to your sig other merely a description of your i.e. height, weight, gonads, brests, etc? Perhaps if you were a taxonomist that kind of 'relationship' would be what was of most interest.

Since the issue is about a volitional, valuing, human individual, "dfferentiating set of characteristics" is not limited to physical characteristics but implies psychological characteristics too.

For example, when I think my of colleague Mrs X, my mind produces a mental picture combined of a set of characteristics (not only physical) which identify Mrs X by differentiating her from my other colleagues.

The entity identity principle is of supreme epistemological importance.

By entity identity, each individual is a volitional, valuing, goal-seeking entity.

These characteristics imply 100% self interest and attributing value in correspondence with beliefs and personal preferences. There is only value to an entity identity; not value to an abstract, category or otherwise. Valuations (values) are by entity identity and therefore inherently subjective.

Any and every thought or claim to the contrary is false. When the dust settles and source is easily seen, the values, i.e., attributing value, will ALWAYS be some individual flying under the false colors of "universal values."

Ayn Rand made a giant leap toward the truth by e. g. pointing out that a term like e. g. "society" does not refer to a finite entity, but is an infinite abstract, which is why she rightfully refused to accept anything flying under the false colors of "for the good of society".

But the term "man" Rand uses in "life proper to man" does not refer to a finite entity eiter but to an abstract category, in denial of the many individual human entities. Claiming a set of values existing for an abstract category is a fallacy.

The entity identiy principle is a "radical" principle (derived from Latin "radix" (root)) in that it goes to the root, to the base.

That's the whole ball game. With entity identity as the root premise thinking discipline, derivative conclusions will be alignment with an actual objective entity. Without it, base premises are a matter of feelings with derivative conclusions flying everywhere due to lack of anchor.

It is the entity identity anchor which dismisses the illusions of categorical identity and the corollary illusion, objective value.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

xray:

Be careful, ...

Your last post looks like you were typing with one hand.

Adam

Edited July 17, 2009 by Selene

[ginny]

Doesn't matter. Even when Xray types with both hands,I don't know what she's talking about.

Ginny

[Selene]

Ginny:

Your posts are extremely refreshing. I like your style, Ma'am.

Adam

Edited July 17, 2009 by Selene

[ginny]

Style is only half of it, sir.

Ginny

[Selene]

Ginny:

Again you raise an interesting question which hangs out there begging...

and the other half is...

substance?

Adam

[Xray]

Oh? Does one stop being a lady when one no longer attends Sunday School?

How am I to answer that since I can't know what subjective connotations you associate with the term "lady"?

If you could please list them here so I can get an idea.

I didn't say one should adopt fictional role-models. I said: Dagny Taggart is one of the best role-models for women that you'll find in modern literature

This is a typical subjective value judgement: you are projecting your personal preferences into "women", assuming that your idea of an 'excellent' female role model matches theirs.

This would be like saying jelly beans are among the "best foods" for people just because I happen to like them.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Doesn't matter. Even when Xray types with both hands,I don't know what she's talking about.

Ginny

Maybe you don't want to know?

What's so difficult to understand about e. g. the entity identity principle?

Or do you believe objective values exist?

If yes, feel free to list some here.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

xray:

"This would be like saying jelly beans are among the "best foods" for people just because I happento like them."

No, that is not a proper comparison[simile*] as it is disparate as to degree.

Adam

*A simile is a figure of speech comparing two unlike things, often introduced with the word "like" or "as".[1] Even though similes and metaphors are both forms of comparison, similes allow the two ideas to remain distinct in spite of their similarities, whereas metaphors compare two things without using "like" or "as". For instance, a simile that compares a person with a bullet would go as follows: "John was a record-setting runner and as fast as a speeding bullet." A metaphor might read something like, "John was a record-setting runner. That speeding bullet could zip past you without you even knowing he was there."

I am not trying to be picky, just giving you some last cover as to your language difficulties.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Selene

[ginny]

Xray, let me help Michelle out here. The definition of a lady is whatever you are not.