Linguistics for Objectivists

[kiaer.ts]

Unfortunately I chose a root appearing in English words which can come from either of two Latin concepts. There are two Latin roots from which English words containing 'cap' can come i) the one i listed -cap or cep - which means take, seize, or grasp, and ii) 'caput' for head...[ or as Ted puts it: "The root *kap- "to grasp, hold, seize" is separate from *kom- which means "together" and from *kaput- whence "head". ]

<>Mikee said capital, concept, capture, encompass, capsule, comprehand, capitulate. Yes for concept, capture, capitulate -- those come from take, seize, or grasp. I'm not sure about capsule. No for encompass and comprehend.

<>Jeffrey asked about caput. That's from head (if you say something is 'kaput' it means as if it had lost its head....other words from head include capitol, captain, capitalism, a capital crime...you lose your head...and hundreds more!)

<>Xray said capable, contraception, receive, accept. Yes for capable, contraception, receive [the spelling changed a bit as it went through french re+cipere, with the later being an altered spelling of capere...we have many words with the ceive - perceive, conceive, receive], accept. So, yes for all four!

<>Reidy said concept, percept, reception, inception. yes for all four--every single one of those words is derived from or built upon take, seize or grasp. And, yes, the two key Objectivist ideas I was thinking of -were- concept and percept!

So there is a tie between Xray and Reidy. Each wins a complete edition of Phil's Greatest Posts or the right to search for them all by going to Members on the main page.

Here's what occurs to me when I see that concept = con (together) + cept (take or grasp). That is one of the beauties of a really simple language like Latin. The Romans were simple, practical-minded, down to earth, unsophisticated people. Once I see from Latin roots that a concept is a lot of things *taken together* in some sense, that is much simpler to hold and recall than Rand's longer and more exact definition: "A concept is a mental integration of two or more units which are isolated by a process of abstraction and united by a specific definition." The units are taken together or fused or grasped together in a certain sense.

Both are true. But taking it back to its origin in Latin really makes the idea of a concept come down to earth. That's the simplest way, the simplest shorthand to remember what a concept is. Yay!

Capsule is from a fourth root, meaning "box." The root *kap actually has cognates in Finnish, Turkish, Mongolian and other Non-Indo-European languages. Orthodox linguists usually say this is coincidence, or that the barbaraic peoples borrowed from the Indo-Europeans. What it really shows is that IE simply has relatives in the languages of Siberia.

The three words I expected were conCEPT perCEIVE and the English verb have itself which comes from Old English. Old English (and the other Germanic tongues) standardly have "h" for "k" and "f" for "p". This correspondence due to a sound shift is called Grimms law after the famous brother Jacob Grimm. Other native English words from the same root include heave, heavy, haft, behave, behoove, hawk and haven. The latin verb habere which means to have looks related, but comes from the root *ghabh- from which comes our word "give."

[jeffrey smith]

Here's another quiz:

Who can translate the slogan Ted puts at the bottom of his posts? Extra credit if you can do it -without- any aids - like web tools or a Latin dictionary: "Homo sum, mihi nihil humani alienum puto."

HINT, for those who have forgotten or didn't have Latin: Use the lesson on what we've just done: Taking a Latin root and trying to think of English words that come from it -- working backwards in order to guess what its Latin meaning must have been. (There's only one word out of the seven I don't immediately see how you can do that with.)

(Imagine how good you are going to feel if you can translate Latin without knowing any - instant self-esteem booster and hard-on inducer...okay, I've had toomuchtodrink.)

Quintus Horatius Flaccus, wasn't it? But I won't translate because 1)I know it as a famous quote, which helps in the translation department and 2)let others have the fun.

Bonus points to whomever can translate my sig line.

[Mikee]

"Homo sum, mihi nihil humani alienum puto"

Hmmm. "Man exists, my non-human appearance notwithstanding" Heh. This is kind of fun.

"Magna est veritas et praevalebit."

"Great truth will prevail" ??

[kiaer.ts]

"Homo sum, mihi nihil humani alienum puto"

Hmmm. "Man exists, my non-human appearance notwithstanding" Heh. This is kind of fun.

"Magna est veritas et praevalebit."

"Great truth will prevail" ??

LOL! (The rule is, always identify the verb and its subject first.)

Edited September 7, 2009 by Ted Keer

[Xray]

Here's another quiz:

Who can translate the slogan Ted puts at the bottom of his posts? Extra credit if you can do it -without- any aids - like web tools or a Latin dictionary: "Homo sum, mihi nihil humani alienum puto."

HINT, for those who have forgotten or didn't have Latin: Use the lesson on what we've just done: Taking a Latin root and trying to think of English words that come from it -- working backwards in order to guess what its Latin meaning must have been. (There's only one word out of the seven I don't immediately see how you can do that with.)

(Imagine how good you are going to feel if you can translate Latin without knowing any - instant self-esteem booster and hard-on inducer...okay, I've had toomuchtodrink.)

But still your writing lookscoherent enough

No aids used, so the free translation may sound a bit wooden:

'I am a human being, [therefore] I regard [literally: 'believe')] nothing related to human behavior as being alien/strange to me'. (= to my thinking/feeling)

"Homo sum" = 'I am a human being'

"puto nihil alienum" [essere](accusative with infinitive not named]:

'I believe nothing [to be] strange' [Latin word order: I believe - nothing - strange (to be)]

"mihi" dative 'to me'

Disclaimer: no guarantee for the complete correctness of the grammar since it has been "requiescat in pace" for most of the Latin I learned, which has been pretty much "buried" since my long-bygone schooldays.

German: "Ich bin ein Mensch, nichts Menschliches ist mir fremd".

Meaining going in the direction: "Being a human myself, l won't judge all-too-human behavior too harshly".

Jeffrey' slogan: Magna est veritas et preavalebit.

"The truth is great and it will prevail."

Edited September 7, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

The root *kap- "to grasp, hold, seize" is separate from *kom- which means "together" and from *kaput- whence "head, haupt," and the borrowed from Latin "Kopf."

"Kopf" is German ('head').

So the root is idg. *kaput-, hence Latin "caput", German "Kopf", English "head" (consonant shift from k to h).

Edited September 7, 2009 by Xray

[kiaer.ts]

The root *kap- "to grasp, hold, seize" is separate from *kom- which means "together" and from *kaput- whence "head, haupt," and the borrowed from Latin "Kopf."

"Kopf" is German ('head').

So the root is idg. *kaput-, hence Latin "caput", German "Kopf", English "head" (consonant shift from k to h).

"Kopf" is borrowed from Latin, it is not native to German - you yourself state the sound law that demonstrates this.

As for "idg." (indogermaisch), you lost the war twice, so give it up.

[Selene]

The root *kap- "to grasp, hold, seize" is separate from *kom- which means "together" and from *kaput- whence "head, haupt," and the borrowed from Latin "Kopf."

"Kopf" is German ('head').

So the root is idg. *kaput-, hence Latin "caput", German "Kopf", English "head" (consonant shift from k to h).

"Kopf" is borrowed from Latin, it is not native to German - you yourself state the sound law that demonstrates this.

As for "idg." (indogermaisch), you lost the war twice, so give it up.

Oh damn - now you have pissed off the Valkyrie!

[kiaer.ts]

The root *kap- "to grasp, hold, seize" is separate from *kom- which means "together" and from *kaput- whence "head, haupt," and the borrowed from Latin "Kopf."

"Kopf" is German ('head').

So the root is idg. *kaput-, hence Latin "caput", German "Kopf", English "head" (consonant shift from k to h).

"Kopf" is borrowed from Latin, it is not native to German - you yourself state the sound law that demonstrates this.

As for "idg." (indogermaisch), you lost the war twice, so give it up.

Oh damn - now you have pissed off the Valkyrie!

Valkyrie is a Nordic word. The native German is Hexe.

[Xray]

The root *kap- "to grasp, hold, seize" is separate from *kom- which means "together" and from *kaput- whence "head, haupt," and the borrowed from Latin "Kopf."

"Kopf" is German ('head').

So the root is idg. *kaput-, hence Latin "caput", German "Kopf", English "head" (consonant shift from k to h).

"Kopf" is borrowed from Latin, it is not native to German - you yourself state the sound law that demonstrates this.

I wrote "Kopf" is German, i. e. the audiovisual symbol is German. Nowhere did I state that the root of the word is germanic.

As for "idg." (indogermaisch), you lost the war twice, so give it up.

What 'war' are you talking about, Ted?

So if it was sanskrit, it is also indogermanic. I used idg. sloppily, agreed.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

http://www.shorpy.com/node/519 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<This is one war

This is the other War -

1945: Germany signs unconditional surrender

AUDIO : BBC correspondent witnesses the ceremony

Germany has signed an unconditional surrender bringing to an end six years of war in Europe, according to reports from France. This evening the Ministry of Information has confirmed that an official statement declaring the end of the war, will be made simultaneously in London, Washington and Moscow tomorrow.

The day has been declared a national holiday to mark Victory in Europe Day (VE Day). The following day (9 May) will also be a national holiday.

The BBC's Thomas Cadett watched the official signing at a schoolhouse in Reims, northeastern France, which serves as the advance headquarters of the supreme commander in Europe, General Dwight D Eisenhower.

"We are so glad the war is over; sometimes we are surprised we are still living, what with the bombing, the shells, the V bombs and planes that fell down around here"

He said the signing, which took place in the early hours of this morning, was carried out "on a cold and businesslike basis."

Afterwards, he said General Gustav Jodl, of Germany, spoke briefly, saying the Germans had given themselves up "for better or worse into the victors' hands".

The document was signed by General Bedell Smith for the Allied commander, General Ivan Susloparov for Russia and General Francois Sevez for France.

It seems General Eisenhower tried to delay the release of the details of the surrender because of the difficulty of arranging a simultaneous declaration in London, Washington and Moscow.

Prime Minister Winston Churchill, the Soviet leader Marshal Joseph Stalin and United States President Harry S Truman have now agreed to make the official announcement of the end of the war at 1500 BST tomorrow.

Mr Churchill will broadcast his announcement from the Cabinet room at 10 Downing Street.

It was from this same room that previous Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain announced Britain was at war with Germany on 3 September 1939.

Until today the German surrender has been piecemeal.

The German 1st and 19th Armies have capitulated in the south. The 25th Army has surrendered in the western Netherlands and Denmark has been celebrating its first day of freedom from occupation.

Earlier today, German forces in Norway also surrendered.

The final capitulation has been delayed by the new Fuehrer, Grand Admiral Doenitz. After the death of Adolf Hitler last week, he announced his intention to continue the fight against the British and Americans as long as they hampered his battle with the Russians.

It appears it did not take him long to realise further resistance was useless.

This evening the King sent a telegram to the Supreme Allied Commander, General Dwight Eisenhower congratulating the troops for carrying out their duties with "valour and distinction".

His message continued: "How unbounded is our admiration for the courage and determination which, under wise leadership, have brought them to their goal of complete and crushing victory."

In Context

The simultaneous broadcasts officially announcing the end of the war went ahead the following day.

The Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, made a broadcast to the nation from 10 Downing Street, followed by a statement in the Commons. He then led a procession of MPs to St Margaret's Church for a service of thanksgiving.

Other church services were held at St Paul's with the boys' choir, just returned from Cornwall where they had been living during the war years. The restriction on Sunday morning bus services, introduced because of the war, was temporarily lifted to allow people to get to church the following weekend.

The head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, had tried to broker a peace deal two months before but he had attached conditions to the agreement: he wanted to keep the Nazi regime in place and stop Soviet progress into Germany.

The Allied powers had agreed at the Casablanca conference in January 1943 that only the unconditional surrender of Germany would be acceptable.

The war in Europe was over but the war against Japan continued for another four months.

[Xray]

Valkyrie is a Nordic word. The native German is Hexe.

I don't know if the Nordic "Valkyrie" means 'Hexe' (Engl. witch), but the German "Walküre" means 'female warrior', not witch, although a Walküre can do some magic also, like e. g. fly in the air with her battlehorse.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Xray

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Translation as Solving a Thinking Puzzle

Returning to my quiz on ""Homo sum, mihi nihil humani alienum puto" and Jeffrey's "Magna est veritas et preavalebit." ==> X-ray basically nailed rendering both into English. (I would quibble slightly on the last and allow the writer his emphasis and say "Great is the truth and it will prevail" rather than "the truth is great...". Also, the slightly shifted emphasis is more memorable, emphatic, poetic.)

My hint would allow a good epist. exercise, had people taken it up: "Use the lesson on what we've just done: Taking a Latin root and trying to think of English words that come from it -- working backwards in order to guess what its Latin meaning must have been." ==>

Do this IF YOU KNOW ZERO LATIN:

1. Jeffrey's signature quote: First ask you self what English words have a root like magna - magnify, magnificent, etc. You don't have to go too far till you are clear that this Latin word probably means big or large. Veritas? verities, verify...you get that it must mean correct, or truth, or proven. Something along those lines. The verb clearly is almost the same as the English word 'prevail'. So go with that for now. So we have: Large /est/ truth or correct/etc [et] prevail. Now if you notice est sounds like is and that every sentence must have a verb, you get "large is correctness? truth? verification? [et] prevails". Notice that et is like etc. which means adding. So the simplest way to put these pieces together is "Large is truth and it prevails." If you don't know Latin you won't know that you are very close but it's the future tense: "will prevail."

Also, that makes a lot more sense because everyone knows that truth doesn't always prevail in the present. So this is a statement that truth is powerful and will win in the long run.

2. Ted's signature quote is enormously difficult if you know no Latin--> Thinking out loud: homo i know is man and humani obviously human. mihi sounds a bit like me. alienum could be alien or alienated. nihil means nothing (as a root of nihilism or nihilistic). puto is harder. But what has that root in English? put, putative, impute... sum ...English?adding up, summation?

So I've got some form of "man in sum?, me/my/to me/of me nothing human/of human/humans alien put/impute/putative". It would be hard from this point if you don't know that sum in Latin means I am and the 'o' ending of a verb means I. If so, then you have "I am man, me/my [etc.] nothing human/of human/humans alien I impute/put."

Changing the order to non-awkward English where its normally subject->verb, it becomes something like "I impute/put"

and then what might be object, indirect object and any possible prepositional phrases or possessives? Need to have a direct object of the verb and has to be either alien or human or me or nothing.

Finally if you play with and try different combinations to find something that makes sense: 'nothing' is an adjective modifying 'human' and that whole phrase is the direct object...so "I impute or I put [turns out best form of the verb is I consider or I believe] "I say/view/consider/believe nothing human". And now 'mihi nihil' and 'alienum' fall into place: "alien to me".

So, whole thing now: "I am man, I consider nothing human alien to me". It's sort of a statement of tolerance or broad-mindedness.

This could have been an exercise from a first year Latin book, once you've learned the basics. Great subject for training the mind.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Philip Coates

[kiaer.ts]

Valkyrie is a Nordic word. The native German is Hexe.

I don't know if the Nordic "Valkyrie" means 'Hexe' (Engl. witch), but the German "Walküre" means 'female warrior', not witch, although a Walküre can do some magic also, like e. g. fly in the air with her battlehorse.

Valkyrie does not "mean" female warrior, at least no more than it "means" fat opera singer in a helmet. It literally referes to the choosers of the valiant dead, female spirits that accompanied a warrior killed in battle to Valhalla.

[Philip Coates]

In case anyone wonders "Why is that idiot Phil making such a multi-post fuss about a 'dead language' like Latin? Don't we have much more important things to talk about here, like why Van Jones resigned or the latest Michael Moore movie?"

Reason: It is the only single subject (9th and 10th grade) which made me much, much, much smarter (in only two years!) of everything I ever took. And I was not alone. For that reason, it should go back into the basic curriculum for multiple years. Especially for the college bound.

Pop Quiz 3: Can anyone guess why someone could plausibly make such an extreme, over the top claim, even if you don't agree (or never took Latin)?

,,,,,,,,,,,,

I should have made my last pop quiz easier...or, to "motivate" Latin by making it more accessible and relevant, I should have given examples of Latin phrases or words which have come into our language -directly-. Here they are ===>

COMMON ONES: Carpe Diem. E Pluribus Unum. Lux et Veritas. Semper Fi (for fidelis). Ad Hoc.

LESS COMMON ONES: the 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' fallacy, obiter dicta, quid pro quo, in hoc signo vinces, ibid, quondam.

Pop Quiz 4 (hard!!): Of the commonly known ones, there are only two Latin words for which I can't think of -any- English word derived from them. Can anyone come up with an English word that comes from 'carpe' or 'hoc'?

Pop Quiz 5: Adding to my five commonly known phrases, can anyone think of a sixth? Or seventh? Criterion: It has to be as well known (among most educated people) as the five I came up with.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Philip Coates

[Philip Coates]

Whoops, I may have thought of a word that comes from 'carpe'. Hint: it's an obscure word which has to do with erosion or faulting.... I'll hold off until people have had a chance to weigh in.

Still drawing a total blank on hoc, though. . . . Other than hoc a loogie, but I hardly think that is Latin for clearing yur throat.

[Xray]

Valkyrie is a Nordic word. The native German is Hexe.

I don't know if the Nordic "Valkyrie" means 'Hexe' (Engl. witch), but the German "Walküre" means 'female warrior', not witch, although a Walküre can do some magic also, like e. g. fly in the air with her battlehorse.

Valkyrie does not "mean" female warrior, at least no more than it "means" fat opera singer in a helmet. It literally referes to the choosers of the valiant dead, female spirits that accompanied a warrior killed in battle to Valhalla.

That's correct. So they did not take take part in battle - I stand corrected.

But they are clearly not what the term "Hexe" refers to. For "Hexe" is 'witch'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie

In Norse mythology, a valkyrie (Old Norse valkyrja "chooser of the slain"[1]) is one of a host of female figures who select from those who have died in battle. The valkyries bring their chosen who have died bravely in battle to the afterlife hall of the slain, Valhalla, ruled over by the god Odin, where the deceased warriors become einherjar. There, when the einherjar are not preparing for the events of Ragnarök, the valkyries bear them mead. Valkyries also appear as lovers of heroes and other mortals, where they are sometimes described as the daughters of royalty, sometimes accompanied by ravens, and sometimes connected to swans.

Valkyries are attested in the Poetic Edda, a book of poems compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources; the Prose Edda and Heimskringla, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, and Njáls saga, a Saga of Icelanders also written in the 13th century. They appear throughout the poetry of skalds, in a 14th century charm, and in various runic inscriptions.

The Old English cognate terms wælcyrge and wælcyrie appear in several Old English manuscripts, and scholars have explored whether the terms are derived through Norse influence, or an indigenous tradition from Anglo-Saxon paganism. Scholarly theories have been proposed about the relation between the valkyries, the norns, the dísir, Germanic seeresses, and shieldmaidens. Archaeological excavations throughout Scandinavia have uncovered amulets depicting valkyries. In modern culture, valkyries have been the subject of works of art, musical works, video games, and poetry.

Contents

"Scholarly theories have been proposed about the relation between the valkyries, the norns, the dísir, Germanic seeresses, and shieldmaidens".

A shieldmaiden was a woman who had chosen to fight as a warrior in Scandinavian folklore and mythology and they are often mentioned in sagas such as Hervarar saga and in Gesta Danorum. Shieldmaidens also appear in stories of other Germanic nations: Goths, Cimbri and Marcomanni.[1] The Valkyries might have been based on the shieldmaidens,[1] and they were J.R.R. Tolkien's inspiration for Éowyn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden

I don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion on Nordic mythologiy, but as Selene keeps calling me Valkyrie, I'm now fully informed and can think of what I'm going to reply should he give me that name again.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Xray

[Selene]

Well now this dumb person knows where Ayn got my hero's name from and damn it fits beautifully. Never really got into the mythological Norse and Teutonic areas.

Some nice artwork on this Wiki site - you might like some of them Ted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k

[Xray]

[Ted]

Trained linguists have been known to achieve fluency in a new language within days.

Do you have a source for that?

While it is true that a person who chooses the field of linguistics as subject of study usually does have a gift for languages, and often speaks several, and linguistic training is for scientifically researching language (in structure, in origin etc.) - still in order to achieve fluency in a new few days - this would mean absorbing, retaning and reproducing an incredible amount of vocalbulary, syntax, along with semantic subtleties, variants of style, and I doubt that this is possible witin a few days even if you are a trained linguist. When I I go back to those linguists I had as teachers, I didn't have the impression they were all foreign language wizards.

To achieve fluency it is practice, practice, practice, but "a few days"?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Xray

[kiaer.ts]

Whoops, I may have thought of a word that comes from 'carpe'. Hint: it's an obscure word which has to do with erosion or faulting.... I'll hold off until people have had a chance to weigh in.

A very useful phenomenon to be aware of is the sound shift called Grimm's law. Cognate words in Latin, Greek, English and the other branches of Indo-European show regular correspondences in their consonants. Knowing the rules for these correspondences can let you guess the meaning of an unknown word with some accuracy. Indeed, rules like this are so powerful as predictors that linguists have been able to predict what sounds would exist in languages that weren't even known yet. For example, it was predicted that in the very oldest Indo-European languages, there must have existed a guttural (back of the throat) sound that in later languages had disappeared, but which in dropping out had affected certain vowel sounds, making them shift in the way that a final silent "e" in English makes a proceeding vowel become long. In pre=Shakespearian English these silent "e's" had been pronounced and the vowel preceding them had still been like the short form. A few decades after this guttural sound, now silent, was predicted, cuneiform tablets with inscriptions from the hittite language were found. It was discovered that Hittite was indeed Indo-European, and that it had "h" sounds exactly where that silent guttural letter had been predicted. Using this powerful scientific method, linguists had predicted the existence of a sound in an unknown language that had been extinct for three thousasnd years.

The sonds of Indo-European are grouped as follows:

y,w,m,n,r,l are called the resonants. for the most part these sounds are conservative and stay the same in the daughter languages. The /w/ eventually changes to a /v/ in many languages. English is one of the few where it stays a /w/. IIn Greek the /w/ became silent and disappears while the /y/ becomes silent but shifts surrounding sounds. The sounds /m,n,r,l/ are extremly stable. The sound /s/ called the sibilant is also very stable, but does often shift to /h/ or become silent in Greek, and can become /r/ between vowels in Latin.

PIE *wem- "to vomit" archaic English "wamble" Latin "vomit" Greek "emetic."

PIE *s(w)eks "six" Latin "sex" Greek "hex"

PIE *sem- "one" English "same" Latin "similar" Greek "homo-"

PIE (s)neighw- "snow" French (thru Latin) "neige" Greek "niphe"

PIE *mel- "to grind" English "meal" Latin "molar" Russian "blintz, blini"

PIE *sawel/n English "sun" Latin "sol-" e.g., "solar" Greek "hel-" e.g., "helium"

PIE *yer- "cyclical period" English "year" Greek "hor-" e.g., "hour, horoscope."

PIE *wet- "year" English "wether" Latine "veteran" Greek "etesian"

PIE *swed- "to please" English "sweet" Latin "per-suade" Greek "hed-onism"

You may notice that the vowels seem haphazard. there are correspondences, but they are complex, based on the effects of stress and resulting even within one language with such correspondences as "sing, sang, sung, song" and "sit, sat, seat, set, nest" where the last comes from "in-sit".

PIE has three sets of what are called stops. These consonants show a shift in the Germanic languages like English which is called Grimm's Law. (Note that in Greek, the "w" leads to complex correspondences depending on the adjacent vowel, and the the English "wh" really represents the sound "hw") Also, "kw-" has a tendency to shift to "p-" somewhat irregularly.

PIE p,t,k,kw Latin p,t,c,qu Greek p,t,k,(p/t/k) English f,th,h,wh Slavic p,t,s,k

PIE b,d,g,gw Latin b,d,g,v Greek b,d,g,(b/d/g) English p,t,k,qu Slavic b,d,z,g

PIE bh,dh,gh,ghw Latin f,f,h,f Greek ph,th,ch(ph/th/ch) English b,d,g,gw Slavic b,d,z,g

If we know these correspondences and we know the form of a root in one of the languages, we can often predict the form in another. For instance, Phil's phrase "carpe diem" has the verb carpe which means "seize." If Latin "c" and "p" correspond to English "h" and "f" then we can look for a verb with the shape "harf" in English, and we come up with "to harvest." (F between vowels usally becones "v" in English.) The same root, "karp-" also exists in Greek where it means "fruit" and is used in English in technical botanical terms.

Some correspondences:

PIE *bhrat- English "brother" Greek "phraternity" Russian "brat"

PIE *dhe(k) English "do" Latin "fac-tory" Greek "the-sis"

PIE *ghans- English "goose" Latin "(h)anser"

PIE *kuwon- English "hound" Latin "can-ine" Greek "cyn-ic"

PIE *ped- English "foot" Latin "pedal" Greek "podiatry"

PIE *kwod- English "what" Latin "quod"

PIE *genu English "knee" Latin "genu-flect"

PIE *dyew- English "tuesday" Latin "Jove" Greek "Zeus"

PIE *kerd- English "heart" Latin "cardiac"

PIE *klep- English "lift" Greek "kleptomaniac"

[Philip Coates]

Ted, thanks for all that information. I have a number of things to say on it, but I'd rather wait till people have responded to other aspects of my last post on Latin, which I think is very important. So I don't want to hijack myself . . .

> I don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion on Nordic mythologiy,

Xray, I'm afraid that horse may have already left the barn and is in the next county by now. Although I hate to be a neigh-sayer. I'd love it if they could "Finnish" that discussion. If they don't it might end up being IgNordic.

> but as Selene keeps calling me Valkyrie, I'm now fully informed and can think of what I'm going to reply should he give me that name again.

You could always simply ignore that and not respond to every little provocation...is that an option? I'm learning how, myself...I'm trying to conserve at least a half dozen neurons for more productive purposes.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Philip Coates

[kiaer.ts]

During WWI a British scholar with a knowledge of Sanskrit was caught behind German lines in a Lithuanian speaking area. (You know, the first race war the Krauts lost.) Sanskrit is the holy Language of the Rg Veda and the Mahabarata. It is the ancestor of Hindi in the same way Latin is the ancestor of French. It hasn't been spoken for three thousand years. Lithuanian is considered perhaps the most conservative (least changed) of the modern IE langauages.

From the web:

The similarities between Sanskrit and Lithuanian are truly amazing,for example:

Sanskrit sunus (son)- Lith. sunus;

Sanskrit avis (sheep)- Lith. avis;

Sanskrit dhumas (smoke)- Lith. dumas;

Sanskrit viras (man)- Lith. vyras;

Sanskrit padas (sole)- Lith. padas;

Sanskrit vrkas (wolf)- Lith. vilkas;

Sanskrit aswa (horse)- Lith. asva;

Sanskrit antaras (second)- Lith. antras;

Here's one more Lithuanian proverb that sounds very much the same as in Sanskrit:

Lithuanian-Dievas dave dantis,Dievas duos ir duonas.

Sanskrit-Devas adat datas,Devas dasyati dhanas.

In English that proverb means:

God gave us teeth God will give us bread.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Ted Keer

[kiaer.ts]

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Edited September 8, 2009 by Ted Keer

[kiaer.ts]

Can you figure out what language this is and what it means?

here is a second version of the same:

[Xray]

Here's what occurs to me when I see that concept = con (together) + cept (take or grasp). That is one of the beauties of a really simple language like Latin.

My experience with Latin was ifferent; I found it mostly cumbersome to learn. It has many irreguar verbs, a plethora of noun and verb classes to memorize, then there are different cases, the three grammatical genders etc.

It is useful though to know about its prefixes and suffixes, but imo a simple terminonology course could cover that in school. The same as e. g. for Greek pre/suffixes like e. g. chromo-, meta-, phil-, and many more. Useful t know, but not necessary to learn the language for that (unless one wants of course).

But I do know enough people who love Latin - it is probably a 'de gustibus non est disputandum' issue.