Brant Gaede Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Warning, Adam, warning! She has no philosophy aside from what is burbling in her mind. No one else can use it.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Warning, Adam, warning! She has no philosophy aside from what is burbling in her mind. No one else can use it.--BrantCan you give me an example e of a philosophy outside of mind? That is, a philosophy "out here" which one discovers just like one would discover a new planet? Edited June 2, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Warning, Adam, warning! She has no philosophy aside from what is burbling in her mind. No one else can use it.--BrantCan you give me an example e of a philosophy outside of mind? That is, a philosophy "out here" which one discovers just like one would discover a new planet? I'm talking about a usable philosophy, not a philosophy "out there."--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Warning, Adam, warning! She has no philosophy aside from what is burbling in her mind. No one else can use it.--BrantCan you give me an example e of a philosophy outside of mind? That is, a philosophy "out here" which one discovers just like one would discover a new planet? I'm talking about a usable philosophy, not a philosophy "out there."--BrantIn how far is Rand's philosophy "usable" with her claim of objective values existing being a contradiction in terms? Edited June 2, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Adam,It's a game and Xray writes the rules at whim. Here is the play sequence according to Xray's new rules (but with the same old ending). How you play is you run a word through all these steps and try to discern when and how Xray decides the step applies. If you agree with her, you win.1. When a word "denotes" something, it stands for the concept.2. When a word "connotes" something, this is a distorted meaning given to a word in different situations.3. "Denote" is valid meaning, and "connote" is not valid meaning.4. A word is allowed to "denote" one thing and one thing only forever and ever amen.5. When in doubt and for all cases anyway, Xray decides when a word "denotes" something or "connotes" something.6. Ditto for Ayn Rand. Xray decides when Rand is denoting or connoting.7. This proves that Ayn Rand was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and contradicted herself over and over.8. And this proves that Objectivism falls apart at the root.Xray has spoken. MichaelLet's stay focused, Michael. You have not answered my # 115 post: My premise is that when a person claims something to be objective, it is claimed to be a FACT. Facts are subject to proof and disproof. Imo Ayn Rand's claim of "objective values" existing does not pass the test since values can't be anything but subjective.Agree? Disagree?If you disagree - please quote the passage and explain why you disagree. TIA.QUOTE (Michael Stuart Kelly @ Jan 2 2008, 01:31 PM) This is an example of thinking in concepts, not just words.MichaelI have never seen an example of not thinking in concepts.I am going to give this a try again and hope I don't regret it. (I am takingyou at your word that you seek the truth.)" (Michael)I seek nothing else. My position is that the ROOT of all knowledge is entity identity. An entityis known to exist (identified) by mentally abstracting it by it's SET OFDIFFERENTIATION CHARACTERISTICS. The relationship between two entities isdetermined by the set of characteristics of each. This is also the reference by which a definition is determined. At radicallevel, a definition is a description of the entity in terms of set ofdifferentiating characteristics. OK. Your turn. How do you go about determining truth? By what criteria doyou determine a definition? What is your definition of truth?"There is a HUGE difference between WORD and CONCEPT." (Michael)At this point, I'm looking for you to present a definition of the term,word, and a definition of the term, concept. TIA. Edited June 2, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I withdraw what I said about your intelligence.I was wrong.I was right originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Xray,I am focused. That's how I uncovered your rules.Although put in humorous form, I stand by my observations about your game.I don't want to play.(But I still like you...)Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Engle Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Can you give me an example e of a philosophy outside of mind? That is, a philosophy "out here" which one discovers just like one would discover a new planet?Sure. One you don't possess; grasp internally and integraded-ly completely or perhaps at all (with all your centers, intellectual, emotional, physical). You can "circumspect a topic" all you wish, and glean from it. But "getting it" doesn't mean just intellectually getting it. The dog has to hunt, and that is a different matter. Too much time locked upstairs and the staff will start stealing your silverware, or at least complaining about low wages. I don't think you can do that yet because you live solely in your mind. Check out the rest of your organization. Do a satisfaction poll, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Xray,I am focused. That's how I uncovered your rules.Although put in humorous form, I stand by my observations about your game.I don't want to play.(But I still like you...)MichaelI don't want to play games either. If I did, I'd post on game board. I have asked several questions here to which a clear "yes" or "no" answer plus elaborations would suffice to make significant headway for both of us in the discussion.For example: What is your definiton of "truth"? Edited June 3, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Can you give me an example e of a philosophy outside of mind? That is, a philosophy "out here" which one discovers just like one would discover a new planet?Sure. One you don't possess; grasp internally and integraded-ly completely or perhaps at all (with all your centers, intellectual, emotional, physical). Please explain how a philosophy can be outside of mind. You can "circumspect a topic" all you wish, and glean from it. But "getting it" doesn't mean just intellectually getting it. The dog has to hunt, and that is a different matter.What is your "dog" hunting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Philosophy outside a mind: In a book.Having a conversation with Xray is like wrastling with a stingray.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Yep watch out for her tail! :cheer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 There is a very brutal form of Chinese execution called "Death by a Thousand Cuts."It is one of the most inhuman forms devised. I have never seen it used as a tactic, though. Only as torture before execution.Now there is a morphed version used as a tactic to winning Xray's game:"Death by a Thousand Queries"Filling out the episodes of "The Saga of the Leading Question" (It would be different if the answers were not already in the can, setting there as traps. But this is bait used as a competitive tactic, not exchange of information.)Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Philosophy outside a mind: In a book.--BrantPlease, Brant, how can there exist a book without a mind having conceived it? Edited June 4, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Why are you linking to those YouTubes right in the middle of a discussion, Selene? Edited June 4, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I have asked several questions here to which a clear "yes" or "no" answer plus elaborations would suffice to make significant headway for both of us in the discussion.For example: What is your definiton of "truth"?There is a big difference between asking for a definition and asking what a person means by a word. We could agree on what 'table' means and yet disagree on whether or not the object in question fits the definition. It's relatively easy to agree on definitions but communicating is a whole other story that involves non-verbal understanding. Do you know what I mean?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Why are you linking to those YouTubes right in the middle of a discussion, Selene?Let's stay focused x-ray.I was clearly making a multi-media argument, complete with historical definitional meanings.I regret that you are unable to understand the deeper meaning in the video.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) There is a very brutal form of Chinese execution called "Death by a Thousand Cuts."It is one of the most inhuman forms devised. I have never seen it used as a tactic, though. Only as torture before execution.Now there is a morphed version used as a tactic to winning Xray's game:"Death by a Thousand Queries"Filling out the episodes of "The Saga of the Leading Question" (It would be different if the answers were not already in the can, setting there as traps. But this is bait used as a competitive tactic, not exchange of information.)MichaelInquiry is the mother of truth, Michael. How can you expect to get to the gist of any issue without asking questions? I welcome questions and am surprised at how few I am asked by you, Selene, Brant, etc. For example, not one single question from you others as to why exactly I disageee on certain key elements of Rand's theory.Only Thom G who has started this thread is trying to get into a real discussion, and does reply to questions with detailed answers addressing the points. He knows I'm not playing games (thank you Thom - I'll reply to your posts asap), and knows that answered questions provide for the inquirer the chance to get a clear picture of the discussion partner's stance re an issue. [Michael(It would be different if the answers were not already in the can, setting there as traps. But this is bait used as a competitive tactic, not exchange of information.)Would you please provide an example of where you think an answer was already "in the can". As for the alleged "competition", truth is not handed over as an award for a good performance in a debate. Truth has no owner. Truth is the identification of a fact of reality. Would you agree on this definition? I can't imagine you not agreeing since Rand herself verbatim stated this. Edited June 4, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Xray,I have asked you questions. I need to look them up, but I think the answers were simply preaching about what you deem Rand meant and how she was wrong, and weird comments like words can't have more than one definition. So I stopped asking.Anyway, you didn't understand me.In my judgment, you are playing a game, whether you say you are or not. When I see people say one thing and do another, I go with what they do. I am not playing the game anymore with you.I can't be any clearer than that. Call me dogmatic or something and let it go...Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 How can you expect to get to the gist of any issue without asking questions?...Truth has no owner.So here is a question for you. Do lies have owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) RAISES HANDI have a question "teacher"?If, "Inquiry is the mother of truth..."Who is truth's father?Are they divorced?Or is inquiry a single parent?Adam Edited June 4, 2009 by Selene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 How can you expect to get to the gist of any issue without asking questions?...Truth has no owner.So here is a question for you. Do lies have owners?Let's break it it down. First we have to ask, what exactly is a lie? A lie is stating something as a fact while knowing the alleged fact to be untrue. Agreed? So unlike truth, a lie is a creation by an individual's mind, but calling it "ownership" does quite fit here imo.I would call it "Lies have creators". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Philosophy outside a mind: In a book.--BrantPlease, Brant, how can there exist a book without a mind having conceived it?I didn't say that, but the book of philosophy is "out there." The author may be dead or not. From one mind to another via a book. These are factual statements. What's important to you is how these facts are characterized which I find trite in the extreme. You have not provided one good or any reason why I should rejigger how I classify this stuff. My mind's been working this way my whole life and there is nothing trite about that. I want to get things done, not spin my wheels endlessly in an epistemological morass.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) RAISES HANDI have a question "teacher"?If, "Inquiry is the mother of truth..."Who is truth's father?Are they divorced?Or is inquiry a single parent?AdamTeacher (smiling encouragingly at student Adam, to convey her appreciation of his attempt at active participation in class discussion):"Interesting point, Adam. What do the rest of the class think of Adam's questions?" (Questions asked in class of always go back to the whole group as a first step - at least that's how I work).So let's see what we get and then we'll take it from there. Edited June 4, 2009 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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