bradbradallen

Christian Objectivist

Recommended Posts

Yes Ted and essentially, the house of worship, the town hall, the community hall are places

to be part of something communal, as in a performance of fiddling music, or an opera or a debate.

They are centers of art.

Good observation

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xray/Michael/Rich:

"Buddha himself spoke he had been reborn many many times." So since you apparently you were there, how was the voice quality?

Don't try to dilute the issue by pretending not to recognize figurative speech, Selene. :)

Did you happen to hear Lao Tsu also?

See above.

Are there not current humans who contemporaneously claim to be "born again"?

Oh, plenty! What strikes me about most of them is that they usually claim to have been some kind of outstanding personality in their previous lives. like e. g holding a high position at the Egyptian pharao's court or being in the inner circle of power at Louis XIV court. Stuff along that line.

I have yet to see one of them claiming that they worked e. g. as a latrine cleaner in Pompeji. Have you?

[Xray] "And who is to decide who the 'evildoers' are?"
[selene] Did you not know about Rich's machine that sounds an alarm when evil doers approach?

How could such a earth-shatterig invention have eluded me? I'm devastated. :o ;)

Edited by Xray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have yet to see one of them claiming that they worked e. g. as a latrine cleaner in Pompeji. Have you? I bet my bottom euro you haven't. :D

Xray,

You better not bet me. I have heard oodles speak of such and worse.

I had to go through both AA and NA to clean up my life from alcohol and drugs. You don't find either of these organizations housed in the homes of Objectivists or like-minded people, but instead you find them in churches.

I didn't go anywhere else, because at that time, there was no where else for me to go to get better.

These meetings are sometimes called beauty parlors because of the dramatic transformations that occur right before people's eyes within a few short weeks. A total bum gradually starts wearing clean clothes, starts grooming, starts using proper language and so on. Once I started going to these meetings, I also started paying attention to certain pockets of religions where they also take totally lost souls and help them clean up so they can live decently within society. Outside of religious organizations and specific abuse-support groups, I know of no places where this regularly happens.

Every person I ever met who got clean in these manners has spoken freely about his or her phase of "latrine cleaning in Pompeii," when not speaking of the times spent wallowing in the latrines of Pompeii.

This is my life experience. I didn't have to get this second-hand from anyone.

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael:

Again, but of course. And, x-ray, your effeteness does not wear well in my eyes either.

I would suggest you have your eyeglass prescription updated because you cannot see clearly because your upturned nose gets in the way.

Get off your bottom euro, start hanging out with adults and get out into the stream of life.

Sometimes is doesn't smell too good, but until you have crawled through it, be a lot more tolerant to others.

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[1] Why do people feel the need to worship?

Then, and only then:

[2] Why do people feel the need to worship in public?

(1) For the same reason we need art, to concretize our fundamental values.

(2) For the same reason that we enjoy being the audience of a live performance, and performing to a live audience.

Religious performance can include drama, poetry, and music, and places of worship can be or display masterpieces of painting, sculpture and architecture as well as such other aesthetic stimulations as inspirational lighting, the use of bells and incense and so forth. Religious worship is art.

Ted,

This is the kind of response I normally read in Objectivism-friendly discussions and it is basically correct as far as it goes. But it does not answer the center of the question.

(Don't forget that I myself am an artist—performing, recording and creative artist—and worked professionally at it for a good part of my career.)

Notice that you said "religious performance can include... [art]." This was followed by "religious worship is art."

The first part is in alignment with what I have observed. The second is not. Religious worship is far different than art, but it can use art to enhance the experience.

Simple prayer is one thing that is not covered by the worship is art idea. But there are other things, too, like milestone ceremonies, birth and death rituals, and so on.

Rand tried to replace religion with art and I think she got the tone right, and even some of the emotions right, but that is all. I think she, also, missed the center for that goal. Her theory of why people need art (concretization of abstract values) works really well for art (up to a point), but it does not work for religion, at least the more abstract religions. I believe this is one reason so many people can read her works, agree with them, but still not abandon the church.

Something really fundamental got left out. I want to find out what that is.

I have been thinking about this a lot recently, but all I have so far are good questions and halfway decent speculations. Not complete answers.

It's funny because I used to have all the answers when I was younger. Then life kinda happened...

:)

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have yet to see one of them claiming that they worked e. g. as a latrine cleaner in Pompeji. Have you? I bet my bottom euro you haven't. :D

Xray,

You better not bet me. I have heard oodles speak of such and worse.

I had to go through both AA and NA to clean up my life from alcohol and drugs. You don't find either of these organizations housed in the homes of Objectivists or like-minded people, but instead you find them in churches.

I didn't go anywhere else, because at that time, there was no where else for me to go to get better.

These meetings are sometimes called beauty parlors because of the dramatic transformations that occur right before people's eyes within a few short weeks. A total bum gradually starts wearing clean clothes, starts grooming, starts using proper language and so on. Once I started going to these meetings, I also started paying attention to certain pockets of religions where they also take totally lost souls and help them clean up so they can live decently within society. Outside of religious organizations and specific abuse-support groups, I know of no places where this regularly happens.

Every person I ever met who got clean in these manners has spoken freely about his or her phase of "latrine cleaning in Pompeii," when not speaking of the times spent wallowing in the latrines of Pompeii.

This is my life experience. I didn't have to get this second-hand from anyone.

Michael

Michael, I suspect Xray may have been speaking more literally about people talking about reincarnation and claiming to have lived past grandiose lives.

In that event, for what it's worth, in my extremely eclectic reading experiences I HAVE come across accounts of people who have claimed to remember past lives as ordinary people in ancient Egypt, Boston in the 1800s, or whatever.

Judith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have yet to see one of them claiming that they worked e. g. as a latrine cleaner in Pompeji. Have you? I bet my bottom euro you haven't. :D

Xray,

You better not bet me. I have heard oodles speak of such and worse.

I had to go through both AA and NA to clean up my life from alcohol and drugs. You don't find either of these organizations housed in the homes of Objectivists or like-minded people, but instead you find them in churches.

I didn't go anywhere else, because at that time, there was no where else for me to go to get better.

These meetings are sometimes called beauty parlors because of the dramatic transformations that occur right before people's eyes within a few short weeks. A total bum gradually starts wearing clean clothes, starts grooming, starts using proper language and so on. Once I started going to these meetings, I also started paying attention to certain pockets of religions where they also take totally lost souls and help them clean up so they can live decently within society. Outside of religious organizations and specific abuse-support groups, I know of no places where this regularly happens.

Every person I ever met who got clean in these manners has spoken freely about his or her phase of "latrine cleaning in Pompeii," when not speaking of the times spent wallowing in the latrines of Pompeii.

This is my life experience. I didn't have to get this second-hand from anyone.

Michael

Michael, not to be misunderstood: I was talking about people claiming to have lived in former times and being "reincarnated", and what strikes me (I can only speak for myself, but I have never been told otherwise) that they usually claim to have held high positions - no one for example has told me they had been, let's say, a slave rowing on a Roman warship, or in a similar deplorable position.

Whereas what you are referring to is something else: you refer to people having risen to what they often call a "second life" from a former stage of near-total destruction, suffering and despair while going through their personal hell when they were still in the throes of addiction.

We may disagree on may points in the discussion, Michael, but my heart goes out to you for what have gone through. Your post deeply moved me, and I sincerely wish you a lot of strength to keep you going on your path.

I'll get back to your post in more detail later.

Edited by Xray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have yet to see one of them claiming that they worked e. g. as a latrine cleaner in Pompeji. Have you? I bet my bottom euro you haven't. :D

Xray,

You better not bet me. I have heard oodles speak of such and worse.

I had to go through both AA and NA to clean up my life from alcohol and drugs. You don't find either of these organizations housed in the homes of Objectivists or like-minded people, but instead you find them in churches.

I didn't go anywhere else, because at that time, there was no where else for me to go to get better.

These meetings are sometimes called beauty parlors because of the dramatic transformations that occur right before people's eyes within a few short weeks. A total bum gradually starts wearing clean clothes, starts grooming, starts using proper language and so on. Once I started going to these meetings, I also started paying attention to certain pockets of religions where they also take totally lost souls and help them clean up so they can live decently within society. Outside of religious organizations and specific abuse-support groups, I know of no places where this regularly happens.

Every person I ever met who got clean in these manners has spoken freely about his or her phase of "latrine cleaning in Pompeii," when not speaking of the times spent wallowing in the latrines of Pompeii.

This is my life experience. I didn't have to get this second-hand from anyone.

Michael

Michael, I suspect Xray may have been speaking more literally about people talking about reincarnation and claiming to have lived past grandiose lives.

Yes, Judith that's what I was speaking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Xray,

Sorry for the mixup. There is a well-worn phrase here in the USA about "reborn Christians." I thought this was what you were talking about. And thank you for your well-wishes. May they return to you in double.

Judith,

As for meeting people who make such claims, I have met them too. I was never remotely convinced, though.

But...

If you want to see some really weird stuff, you should see the Alan Kardec people in Brazil. They have gallery of paintings made by poor people who they claim incorporate the spirits of famous dead painters. These poor people often set in public doing the paintings for hours before an audience. Many have been scrutinized and investigated by very skeptical journalists in the press (some quite famous) and had their claims of no former training in painting verified.

I don't swallow the incorporation of spirits thing, at least not in the primitive manner they give it, but I also don't see this as a normal magic trick.

You also haven't lived until you have witnessed a Macumba or Umbanda ritual...

:)

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folks:

I kinda of thought that xray was not getting what "born again" meant, but I did not want to be picky! lol

At any rate, Patton supposedly had prior life experiences wherein he was a common soldier in some of the Greek and

Roman ancient battles.

Shirley McLaine maintains that she has had numerous past lives.

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anyone is interested in reading serious research on this subject and not just nutcases rambling on, take a look at Ian Stevenson's books. He died recently (February 2007) and was until near the end of his life the head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia Medical School. He traveled widely, documenting cases of children who remembered past lives, for example in India, among the Druse in Lebanon, and in North America. The books describe the kind of documentation he did and contain case reports. In some cases there are photographs of bizarre physical similarities as well.

Judith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Folks:

I kinda of thought that xray was not getting what "born again" meant, but I did not want to be picky! lol

I should have used the clearer term "reincarnated", to avoid the confusion with "born again/reborn", which is employed in another context by some denominations, or in certain personal situations where people compare their life as they lead it now to the life they used to lead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If anyone is interested in reading serious research on this subject and not just nutcases rambling on, take a look at Ian Stevenson's books. He died recently (February 2007) and was until near the end of his life the head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia Medical School. He traveled widely, documenting cases of children who remembered past lives, for example in India, among the Druse in Lebanon, and in North America. The books describe the kind of documentation he did and contain case reports. In some cases there are photographs of bizarre physical similarities as well.

Judith

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. (1966). (Second revised and enlarged edition 1974), University of Virginia Press, ISBN 0813908728

This one Judith?

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If anyone is interested in reading serious research on this subject and not just nutcases rambling on, take a look at Ian Stevenson's books. He died recently (February 2007) and was until near the end of his life the head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia Medical School. He traveled widely, documenting cases of children who remembered past lives, for example in India, among the Druse in Lebanon, and in North America. The books describe the kind of documentation he did and contain case reports. In some cases there are photographs of bizarre physical similarities as well.

Judith

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. (1966). (Second revised and enlarged edition 1974), University of Virginia Press, ISBN 0813908728

This one Judith?

Adam

That's one of them, yes. I don't remember which one has the accounts of the North American children, but I found that one particularly interesting because North American children aren't brought up in a culture redolent of reincarnation the way Indian children are. The one with the photographs was one of the later books, as I recall. Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect (1997), Praeger Publishers, ISBN 0-275-95282-7 and Children Who Remember Previous Lives: A Quest of Reincarnation (2001), McFarland & Company, ISBN 0-7864-0913-4 might be better books with which to start.

Judith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I had to go through both AA and NA to clean up my life from alcohol and drugs. You don't find either of these organizations housed in the homes of Objectivists or like-minded people, but instead you find them in churches. I didn't go anywhere else, because at that time, there was no where else for me to go to get better.

AA (and its related branches) is an organization where belief in god plays the pivotal role and I think this is why churches give them rooms.

That churches are committed to helping here in general has to do with the "charity" idea.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]Once I started going to these meetings, I also started paying attention to certain pockets of religions where they also take totally lost souls and help them clean up so they can live decently within society. Outside of religious organizations and specific abuse-support groups, I know of no places where this regularly happens.

What is the objectivist stance on such organizations?

And thank you for your well-wishes. May they return to you in double.

Thank you too Michael for your kind words.

Edited by Xray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael raised the rational steps in another thread:

Admitting the problem

1. I admit I am powerless over a wrong moral choice I have made—that my life has become unmanageable.

Hope

2. I come to accept that reason is a power greater than any other in my life and that it can restore me to sanity.

3. I make a decision to turn my will over to reason.

Changing guilt into remorse and self-forgiveness

4. I make an honest, searching and fearless moral inventory of myself.

5. I admit to myself, and to one or more human beings, the exact nature of my wrongs without condemning my own worth as a human being.

6. I deepen my wish to remove all these defects of character through reason.

7. I humbly decide to use reason to remove my shortcomings as they arise, to accept myself as a worthy human being each time, and to start by forgiving myself for the past.

Cleaning up the past

8. I make a list of all persons I have harmed and become willing to make amends to them all.

9. I make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure myself, them, or others.

Maintenance

10. I continue to take personal inventory and when I am wrong I promptly admit it.

11. I seek through study, introspection and meditation to improve my awareness of truth, seeking only for knowledge of wisdom and the power to act on it.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening to reason and self-love as the result of these steps, I try to carry this message to those who are suffering from guilt, and to practice these principles in all my affairs.

There are websites as to this approach.

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael raised the rational steps in another thread:

Admitting the problem

1. I admit I am powerless over a wrong moral choice I have made—that my life has become unmanageable.

Hope

2. I come to accept that reason is a power greater than any other in my life and that it can restore me to sanity.

3. I make a decision to turn my will over to reason.

Changing guilt into remorse and self-forgiveness

4. I make an honest, searching and fearless moral inventory of myself.

5. I admit to myself, and to one or more human beings, the exact nature of my wrongs without condemning my own worth as a human being.

6. I deepen my wish to remove all these defects of character through reason.

7. I humbly decide to use reason to remove my shortcomings as they arise, to accept myself as a worthy human being each time, and to start by forgiving myself for the past.

Cleaning up the past

8. I make a list of all persons I have harmed and become willing to make amends to them all.

9. I make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure myself, them, or others.

Maintenance

10. I continue to take personal inventory and when I am wrong I promptly admit it.

11. I seek through study, introspection and meditation to improve my awareness of truth, seeking only for knowledge of wisdom and the power to act on it.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening to reason and self-love as the result of these steps, I try to carry this message to those who are suffering from guilt, and to practice these principles in all my affairs.

There are websites as to this approach.

Adam

"Admitting the problem

1. I admit I am powerless over a wrong moral choice I have made—that my life has become unmanageable.

Hope

2. I come to accept that reason is a power greater than any other in my life and that it can restore me to sanity.

3. I make a decision to turn my will over to reason." (end quote)

This places reason outside self, as a "power greater than any other" in one's life, a power to which "one can turn over one's will". It gives reason a god-like quality.

Edited by Xray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This places reason outside self, as a "power greater than any other" in one's life, a power to which "one can turn over one's will". It gives reason a god-like quality.

Xray,

Maybe, just maybe, somewhat metaphorically, it means accepting reason as the best part of human nature (and available to us all) for dealing with reality and conflicts.

Giving in to craving sure as hell didn't work.

Ask the author and he will tell you what he means instead of you telling him...

:)

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael: "I also agree that the Christian God as presented in the literature—or Jewish God or Allah or any number of other Gods I have read about—are intellectual mistakes when affirmed to be facts. They are fantasies or metaphors to simplify understanding broad questions like "Why must we die"" and "What is the meaning of life?" at best.

"But that still leaves the question of why people have sought this form of explanation throughout all of human history and why all societies have vast hordes of people congregating in places of worship. Do you have any thoughts on that?"

Michael, you have essentially answered, in your first paragraph, the question you posed in your second paragraph. Yes, religion does attempt to offer people answers to the questions we all necessasrily ask: "Can we understand the world we live in?"-- "How do we achieve knowledge?-- "What is the good for man?"-- "How shall we treat other men?" -- "Is there a purpose to our lives?"

However, predominantly the answers religion gives have not been helfpul. Rellgions have taught us that supernatural entities exist and have power over us that we cannot understand or deal with, and that our reason must bend its knees to faith. Most religions have taught us self-sacrifice; they have taught us that our lives are chained by Original Sin; they have taught us that we must, on pain of eternal hell-fire, sacrifice ourselvles to others; they have taught us that sex is evil, and that money is the root of all evil.

However, people still cling to religion because philosophy has not done much better. Not in the sense of providing a comprehensive and intelligible view of man and his world that could substitute for religion.

I believe that the reason so many people, discovering Rand, have without great difficulty been able to drop whatever religious views they held, is precisely because she provides answers to these fundamental questions. That is not to say that she necessarily always was correct, but that she offers a view of the world, of man, of his relationship to other men, of the good, of the possiibilities that life offers us, that is both comprehensive and intelligible.

Barbara

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I believe that the reason so many people, discovering Rand, have without great difficulty been able to drop whatever religious views they held, is precisely because she provides answers to these fundamental questions. That is not to say that she necessarily always was correct, but that she offers a view of the world, of man, of his relationship to other men, of the good, of the possiibilities that life offers us, that is both comprehensive and intelligible.

I was long familiar with many skeptical arguments against god. Perhaps the most common but least effective challenge I heard was "there are thousands of religions, they all can't be right."

Two days after I picked up Virtue of Selfishness I was attempting to integrate what I had read with my Jesuitical Catholicism. After one week I was an explicit atheist. It was the fact that there was no need for a sky father to validate moral truths that made the transition satisfying and compelling and obvious.

I still have many Christian friends and family members. None of them has any problem with what they understand of Objectivism. I comfort them with my explanation that they need not worry for me, since god is so obviously an Objectivist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael: "I also agree that the Christian God as presented in the literature—or Jewish God or Allah or any number of other Gods I have read about—are intellectual mistakes when affirmed to be facts. They are fantasies or metaphors to simplify understanding broad questions like "Why must we die"" and "What is the meaning of life?" at best.

"But that still leaves the question of why people have sought this form of explanation throughout all of human history and why all societies have vast hordes of people congregating in places of worship. Do you have any thoughts on that?"

Michael, you have essentially answered, in your first paragraph, the question you posed in your second paragraph. Yes, religion does attempt to offer people answers to the questions we all necessasrily ask: "Can we understand the world we live in?"-- "How do we achieve knowledge?-- "What is the good for man?"-- "How shall we treat other men?" -- "Is there a purpose to our lives?"

However, predominantly the answers religion gives have not been helfpul. Rellgions have taught us that supernatural entities exist and have power over us that we cannot understand or deal with, and that our reason must bend its knees to faith. Most religions have taught us self-sacrifice; they have taught us that our lives are chained by Original Sin; they have taught us that we must, on pain of eternal hell-fire, sacrifice ourselvles to others; they have taught us that sex is evil, and that money is the root of all evil.

However, people still cling to religion because philosophy has not done much better. Not in the sense of providing a comprehensive and intelligible view of man and his world that could substitute for religion.

I believe that the reason so many people, discovering Rand, have without great difficulty been able to drop whatever religious views they held, is precisely because she provides answers to these fundamental questions. That is not to say that she necessarily always was correct, but that she offers a view of the world, of man, of his relationship to other men, of the good, of the possiibilities that life offers us, that is both comprehensive and intelligible.

Barbara

But isn't the same principle at work here as is with religion? A view of "man" is provided (treating the categegory as if it were a finite entity), Rand judging what is "good" etc.

And as in religion (or in any other ideology, it needn't be transcendent), objective values are claimed to exist. Rand explicitly provides her "cardinal values and virtues" catalog.

Values require a valuer, and valuer goes to subjective choice.

Rand's cardinal values and virtues are: Reason, Purpose, Self-Esteem; Rationality, Productiveness, Pride.

Given the countless individual identities subjectively choosing their values, I can't see this catalog as anything other than a personal subjective selection.

As for "man" - isn't the idea of a "collective being", a "collective identity", a contradiction of individual identity?

For what is always manifest is individual identity no matter what. Doesn't the reality of individual identity deny a collective label "man"?

Edited by Xray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This places reason outside self, as a "power greater than any other" in one's life, a power to which "one can turn over one's will". It gives reason a god-like quality.

Xray,

Maybe, just maybe, somewhat metaphorically, it means accepting reason as the best part of human nature (and available to us all) for dealing with reality and conflicts.

Giving in to craving sure as hell didn't work.

Ask the author and he will tell you what he means instead of you telling him...

:)

Michael

Without the individuals replacing their old subjective value system with another, my guess is no therapy will have any effect.

As for cravings - they are part of human nature too; they always indicate an individual need. In the AA group meetings, are those needs (which underly the craving for the substance) identified and thematized?

Edited by Xray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the AA group meetings, are those needs identified and thematized?

Xray,

Nope. They are generalized. NA, too. At NA, they don't even like you mentioning the type of drug you used.

The idea is to get your mind off the specific substance and on to the underlying causes that led you to develop a problem. Thinking about the substance in itself induces craving.

This doesn't work for everybody and I have observed different patterns of different kinds of addiction (I include alcoholism as addiction), not characterized by the substance, but by another standard. There is biological addiction. There are people who have been sexually abused as children who become addicts in a manner that plays out somewhat differently than a person who becomes an addict, say, because he or she thought consuming the substance was cool and just did too much too often.

I intend to develop some writing in this area.

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ted:

"It was the fact that there was no need for a sky father to validate moral truths that made the transition satisfying and compelling and obvious."

Yes, well put, the logical alternative which is not "supernatural" in its essence. Actually, your Jesuit training was a peculiar plus in that it does provide you with the mental discipline to apply reasoning in a precise way.

Barbara:

"I believe that the reason so many people, discovering Rand, have without great difficulty been able to drop whatever religious views they held, is precisely because she provides answers to these fundamental questions. That is not to say that she necessarily always was correct, but that she offers a view of the world, of man, of his relationship to other men, of the good, of the possibilities that life offers us, that is both comprehensive and intelligible."

Yes indeed. That is why I could look up after finishing Atlas and say to myself, but of course!

Similar to Dagny's statement that we never had to take any of this seriously, did we?

"Most religions have taught us self-sacrifice; they have taught us that our lives are chained by Original Sin; they have taught us that we must, on pain of eternal hell-fire, sacrifice ourselves to others; they have taught us that sex is evil, and that money is the root of all evil."

I think the Original Sin deal is pretty exclusive to Catholics.

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the Original Sin deal is pretty exclusive to Catholics.

Uh, not quite. Luther thought the Church didn't take original sin seriously enough, and Calvin made predestination the center of his theology. The whole idea of protestantism is that Catholicism didn't see man as nearly miserable enough. Didn't object to indulgences because they were being sold. He objected because he didn't think one could earn forgiveness of sins at all. See sola fide and predestination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...