Consider the moral courage of a man standing alone having taken an oath which he meant!

[galtgulch]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2009-210

And this is what he had to say to those who also took that same oath:

<<<"422 Yea & 1 Nay from RP

Posted April 30th, 2009 by ch₳d

One person out of the entire congress thinks it's a bad idea to spend tax payer money to award Arnold Palmer with a gold medal and of course Ron stood up as he did in the past.

"I must, however, oppose the Gold Medal for Ronald and Nancy Reagan because appropriating $30,000 of taxpayer money is neither constitutional nor, in the spirit of Ronald Reagan's notion of the proper, limited role for the federal government."

"Because of my continuing and uncompromising opposition to appropriations not authorized within the enumerated powers of the Constitution, I would maintain my resolve and commitment to the Constitution--a Constitution, which only last year, each Member of Congress, swore to uphold. In each of these instances, I offered to do a little more than uphold my constitutional oath."

"In fact, as a means of demonstrating my personal regard and enthusiasm for Ronald Reagan's advocacy for limited government, I invited each of these colleagues to match my private, personal contribution of $100 which, if accepted by the 435 Members of the House of Representatives, would more than satisfy the $30,000 cost necessary to mint and award a gold medal to Ronald and Nancy Reagan. To me, it seemed a particularly good opportunity to demonstrate one's genuine convictions by spending one's own money rather that of the taxpayers who remain free to contribute, at their own discretion, to commemorate the work of the Reagans. For the record, not a single Representative who solicited my support for spending taxpayer's money, was willing to contribute their own money to demonstrate their generosity and allegiance to the Reagan's stated convictions." ~ Ron Paul">>>

[Alfonso Jones]

Galt -

A nice gesture by Ron Paul. It would be better if Ron Paul were not a major player in the US Federal Government pork machine, himself. That would lend the gesture more credibility.

Bill P

[Chris Grieb]

Galt -

A nice gesture by Ron Paul. It would be better if Ron Paul were not a major player in the US Federal Government pork machine, himself. That would lend the gesture more credibility.

Bill P

Bill P; Well Said!

Gulch; I think the ball is your court.

[galtgulch]

Galt -

A nice gesture by Ron Paul. It would be better if Ron Paul were not a major player in the US Federal Government pork machine, himself. That would lend the gesture more credibility.

Bill P

Bill P et al,

I take no pleasure in arguing with either of you. Ron Paul will have to defend himself if necessary. He doesn't have to prove himself to me. You know I have profound disagreements with him, e.g. evolution and prochoice, and if he had been a beautiful girl whom I met at a party when I was single I would have been turned off completely because of those beliefs. Normally they would be dealbreakers for a politician as well.

But we must not drop the context. He has stood up for adherence to the oath to uphold the Constitution for the last thirty some odd years, stood alone against all of the rest of his fellow congressmen on several hundred occasions. I don't see it as a gesture or a token. I know you are focusing on his willingness to donate a few bucks rather than vote for the taxpayers to fund the gift.

I am impressed by the fact that he exposes all of the rest of them for the traitors they are to the Founder's ideals and to the principle of limited government with enumerated powers. That is not a mere gesture, that is devotion to the principle of individual freedom.

I know you are more than concerned with whether Ron Paul would defend us from those who would destroy us from without. Have you no concern for the threat which exists now from domestic enemies of the Constitution such as virtually all the Congressmen, all the Senators and the President and his henchmen, tax cheats that they are, hypocrits all, with their evil statist collectivist intentions and policies?

Whether you like it or not I repeat that Ron Paul has awakened freedom lovers in this country from all walks of life, all ages, including a devoted contingent within the colleges and universities who are actively recruiting and enlightening others all over. True they have inconsistencies and we can find fault in a couple of their positions but generally they are addressing issues long ignored in public discourse.

Witness the growing cosponsorship of HR1207 the Federal Reserve Transparency Act of 2009 with over 112! This is being accomplished by some of the 150550 members of the C4L and YAL.

It may or may not become law but this movement is just getting warmed up and getting organized. They have every intention of running candidates for every congressional seat as well as state legislature positions going forwards and will continue until they win enough of them to change the present course of our ship of state.

Don't waste your time criticizing me or finding fault with Ron Paul. Join us and let others you encounter know about this happening, this freedom seekers movement. I think this is virtually unprecedented excepting the original revolution. That one took great courage for farmers to pick up a rifle and stand up to the British Empire's Redcoats.

One hopes such a fight will never become necessary to avoid tyranny here again. We are enslaved even now to the extent that we are taxed. The politicians ignore the Supreme Law of the Land meaning the Constitution itself. Our rights are in jeopardy, witness the gun control laws and movement.

I hope you decide to join us despite our differences not only with me but with others within the movement. There is one thing we all have in common which is more valuable to our common cause than whatever differences we may have. If we have time we can try to work out our differences especially once we have rescued our country from the tyranny it is becoming.

Am I making any sense to anyone here?

gulch

[Alfonso Jones]

gulch -

I like some things about Ron Paul. I like his spirited advocacy of paying strict attention to the U. S. Constitution, and his stands on economics. I do wish he set a better example in his personal behavior (see the reference to pork above).

I do not like his lack of concern for the threat from without.

Bill P (who formerly lived very close to the 14th Congressional District in Texas and lived in Texas for about 28 years)

[galtgulch]

gulch -

I like some things about Ron Paul. I like his spirited advocacy of paying strict attention to the U. S. Constitution, and his stands on economics. I do wish he set a better example in his personal behavior (see the reference to pork above).

I do not like his lack of concern for the threat from without.

Bill P (who formerly lived very close to the 14th Congressional District in Texas and lived in Texas for about 28 years)

Bill P

What strikes me about your response is your focus on Ron Paul. I feel, I hate to say this, that you are missing the point!

To me it is more important that we focus on the existence, progress and potential of the movement which has been generated by Ron Paul, despite his flaws,shortcomings, errors of knowledge and beliefs.

There is no doubt that the movement exists all over the country and among all ages of people who share a passion. Where they may have harbored a longing for freedom and a free society which they kept to themselves while they struggled to advance their own lives despite the drift of the country towards statism and the welfare warfare state, now they actually feel and realize that there is a movement which has the potential to make that dream a real possibility.

It is no longer just about admiration for Ron Paul although that does continue as he continues to demonstrate what he can achieve as an individual working within an unresponsive political intellectual desert.

Ron Paul has told his supporters that he has no intention of being their leader or telling each of them what to do. That is up to each of them to decide for themselves. Many if not most have risen to the occasion and are using their own ingenuity to find ways to participate in this growing movement. In addition to simply recruiting others they are also engaged in activism in many ways.

Am I making myself clear? I know Ron Paul has flaws. I have pointed out that his unfortunate positions on abortion and evolution are absurd and irrational to the point of being an embarrassment. That is all besides the point. He has ignited the movement. So did Ayn Rand in her own way. She has provided the intellectual ammunition so vital to the success of the struggle for individual freedom. It is outrageous for us to withhold our contribution in terms of the knowledge and perspective we have by virtue of what we know as Objectivists, from the pro freedom movement now in progress because of Ron Paul

The movement exists all over and it might achieve an historic sea change with or without us. My contention is that if we participate in the movement the end result will be closer to our own vision than would otherwise happen.

Its the movement, stupid!

gulch

[Alfonso Jones]

Its the movement, stupid!

gulch

I hear and understand you, gulch. My assessment is that

"It's the stupid movement" if they are following Ron Paul.

Bill P

[galtgulch]

Its the movement, stupid!

gulch

I hear and understand you, gulch. My assessment is that

"It's the stupid movement" if they are following Ron Paul.

Bill P

No you don't!

The movement will outlive Ron Paul and will be modified by the ideas and beliefs of those who are involved in the movement who run for office and speak their own mind on the issues. It is not a matter of "following" any more than any of us are "following" Ayn Rand.

Remember when Objectivism was referred to as a cult and Rand replied that by its nature Objectivism could not be a cult because it demands that individuals use their own judgment meaning that no one accepts the ideas on faith rather one must understand the ideas based on reason.

There is plenty of reason to advocate the free market and limited government, the Austrian school theory as well as the theory of evolution and a woman's right to choose. There will be many in this movement who are more consistent than Ron Paul in their advocacy of individual liberty and rational positions in all areas.

What is it that you are counting on to stop the power lusters who are already in power? It is not at all clear that they will be willing to step aside once their terms expire. There is no time to waste as the barbarians are within the gates!

gulch

[Selene]

Rules for the revolution

Rule 1 - Aim small shoot small;

Rule 2 - Avoid strong drink it may cause you to shoot at a revenuer and ... miss;

Rule 3 - Cash in advance on the first day of the week and

Rule 4 - See Rule 1 above.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Selene

[Alfonso Jones]

gulch -

You say "no you don't!!!" Does this mean that you maintain that the C4L group is NOT following Ron Paul? I hope that you are correct.

I wonder what fraction of your posts about C4L mention Ron Paul? That might be a rough indicator, at least for your public presentation...

Bill P

[galtgulch]

gulch -

You say "no you don't!!!" Does this mean that you maintain that the C4L group is NOT following Ron Paul? I hope that you are correct.

I wonder what fraction of your posts about C4L mention Ron Paul? That might be a rough indicator, at least for your public presentation...

Bill P

Bill P

At the moment there are some 150,574 members of the growing movement. i am in no position to know how many are "followers" and how many are independent thinkers who were merely inspired by Ron Paul. I assume there are many who share his more mistaken views on abortion and evolution but even these are also in favor of limited govt in the realm of economics.

I am not saying that it doesn't matter, just that we can not afford to let this train go by without hopping on, in order to wait for the train which shares our beliefs entirely because you will agree that one is nowhere to be seen and is not coming.

It makes more sense to me to hop aboard this one which purports to be pro Constitution, limited govt and try to reason with those who are open to listening to reason. The main issues is going to have more to do with stopping the behemoth, ending the welfare warfare state, auditing then ending the Fed, restoring sound money, repealing the laws which interfere with the market, abolishing the unauthorized agencies, ending the drug war, etc.

What are you waiting for?

gulch

[Alfonso Jones]

gulch -

Got an estimate how many of your posts about C4L have mentioned Ron Paul?

Bill P

[thomtg]

Galt -

A nice gesture by Ron Paul. It would be better if Ron Paul were not a major player in the US Federal Government pork machine, himself. That would lend the gesture more credibility.

Bill P

I used to think as you, Bill (Go Vols!), until recently. This past March, Ron Paul answered the very question you raised about budget appropriations. I linked it here. Essentially, Dr. Paul sticks to the Constitutional principle that it is the role of Congress to control the budget, that it should leave no room for discretionary spending to the Executive branch, none. Therefore, the budget should be 100% earmarked.

[galtgulch]

gulch -

Got an estimate how many of your posts about C4L have mentioned Ron Paul?

Bill P

Bill P

What in heaven's name has that got to do with anything? You are incredibly annoying by refusing to acknowledge the value of this pro freedom movement which is gathering strength each minute. It is happening even though you are critical of the man who ignited it. Don't you understand that the movement has the potential to challenge the status quo of business as usual in the federal government? The movement, C4L is planning to run for each Congressional district seat from now on! Some will run in each party or as independents. The dialog will be unprecedented. The Emperor will be exposed. People will hear the truth about the Fed, etc.

I expect that even you will end up voting for a C4L candidate for Congress in your district. Who represents Shanghai?

www.campaignforliberty.com 2May 150,610

gulch

Edited May 2, 2009 by galtgulch

[Selene]

Oh Blind One:

"You are incredibly annoying..."

Excuse me Mr. Pot, look in the mirror at Gulch the black kettle.

Adam

[Alfonso Jones]

gulch -

Got an estimate how many of your posts about C4L have mentioned Ron Paul?

Bill P

Bill P

What in heaven's name has that got to do with anything? You are incredibly annoying by refusing to acknowledge the value of this pro freedom movement which is gathering strength each minute. It is happening even though you are critical of the man who ignited it. Don't you understand that the movement has the potential to challenge the status quo of business as usual in the federal government? The movement, C4L is planning to run for each Congressional district seat from now on! Some will run in each party or as independents. The dialog will be unprecedented. The Emperor will be exposed. People will hear the truth about the Fed, etc.

I expect that even you will end up voting for a C4L candidate for Congress in your district. Who represents Shanghai?

www.campaignforliberty.com 2May 150,610

gulch

gulch -

You really don't see the point, do you? You continue to gush about Ron Paul - as you did previously when you maintained so many times that Ron Paul was going to win the Republican nomination. Even though you seem unable to recognize the nature of C4L as followers of Ron Paul. If Ron Paul were to run for President again, do you think they would hesitate before supporting him?

My voter registration is in Knoxville, Tennessee - not Shanghai.

Bill P

[galtgulch]

gulch -

Got an estimate how many of your posts about C4L have mentioned Ron Paul?

Bill P

Bill P

What in heaven's name has that got to do with anything? You are incredibly annoying by refusing to acknowledge the value of this pro freedom movement which is gathering strength each minute. It is happening even though you are critical of the man who ignited it. Don't you understand that the movement has the potential to challenge the status quo of business as usual in the federal government? The movement, C4L is planning to run for each Congressional district seat from now on! Some will run in each party or as independents. The dialog will be unprecedented. The Emperor will be exposed. People will hear the truth about the Fed, etc.

I expect that even you will end up voting for a C4L candidate for Congress in your district. Who represents Shanghai?

www.campaignforliberty.com 2May 150,610

gulch

gulch -

You really don't see the point, do you? You continue to gush about Ron Paul - as you did previously when you maintained so many times that Ron Paul was going to win the Republican nomination. Even though you seem unable to recognize the nature of C4L as followers of Ron Paul. If Ron Paul were to run for President again, do you think they would hesitate before supporting him?

My voter registration is in Knoxville, Tennessee - not Shanghai.

Bill P

Bill P

There are things about Ron Paul to gush about and things about him which are profoundly disturbing I concur.

I still make a distinction between him and the movement itself which he "ignited." Evidently to you the movement consists only of followers of him. I am in agreement that many are but not all. I have watched the responses on discussion boards and there are reasonable people there as well as those who are not open to reason on certain issues. Still the movement exists and is growing. It is too soon to know how large it will become and how effective it will ever be. The focus is not on abortion and not at all on evolution.

Mostly it has to do with how the federal govt ignores the limits in power granted in Article 1 Section 8 and how blatant the feds are in disregarding the rights of the citizens of the states. There is a movement to restore states rights and sovereignty which is part of the pro freedom movement although not all the supporters of that are C4L people.

There are those who want Ron Paul to run again in 2012 and it remains to be seen if he will as he is up in years.

He certainly remains active as a congressman. I do not hear you opposed or even aware of his activities. I doubt you would take issue with his HR1207 Federal Reserve Transparency Act or his opposition to the War on Drugs.

I keep saying that there is a distinction between Ron Paul and the movement he started. The movement now includes the Young Americans for Liberty on over 125 campuses. The movement will outlive him. I am hopeful that the movement will lead to a change in the dialog in the campaigns which will further enlighten the populace about how the Federal Govt was limited in the Constitution and is ignoring those limits.

You never indicate what you are counting on to change the course of our society if not this movement. I contend that Objectivists can play a role by participating in the movement.

www.campaignforliberty.com 150,646

"A Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever."

-John Adams-

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility... I welcome it."

-John F. Kennedy-

"Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question: is it political? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor political, nor popular - but one must take it simply because it is right."

-Martin Luther King, Jr.-

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

-Patrick Henry-

"Every normal man must be tempted at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."

-H.L. Mencken-

[Judith]

The C4L website also actively supports an isolationist foreign policy. I must say that that point is the only one of the movement's with which I find myself disagreeing.

Judith

[galtgulch]

The C4L website also actively supports an isolationist foreign policy. I must say that that point is the only one of the movement's with which I find myself disagreeing.

Judith

Judith,

How do you come to that conclusion? Do you advocate we keep military bases in 130 foreign countries?

Are you in favor of the kind of foreign intervention such as led to the instillation of the Shah of Iran in 1953?

Are you in favor of the kind of trade embargoes which led to deaths of tens of thousands of children in Iraq but didn't hurt Saddam?

What is your definition of isolationism? Was George Washington an isolationist?

gulch

[Selene]

"How do you come to that conclusion?" Easily.

Do you advocate we keep military bases in 130 foreign countries?

Yes, until we eliminate the specific folks that killed 2, 974 of my neighbors including personal friends, but I guess Boston did not get hit so your skirt is dry, mines not.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/cartoo...ltoon042309.gif

Are you in favor of the kind of foreign intervention such as led to the instillation of the Shah of Iran in 1953? Red Herring - False Man fallacy

Totally irrelevant to Ron Paul today.

Are you in favor of the kind of trade embargoes which led to deaths of tens of thousands of children in Iraq but didn't hurt Saddam? Yes. And a lot worse. And I hate the fact that you think that answering this question begging question wins you the argument.

What is your definition of isolationism? You used the term, you define it and then we will talk.

Was George Washington an isolationist? Yes.

Adam

[Alfonso Jones]

I just browsed again to the Campaign for Liberty WWW-site. I find the following to be listed as the Board of Directors. Below this listing is a link to their store. In the pictures below are featured 8 items for sale - - - two are books by Ron Paul, and one a bumper sticker "Ron Paul was right."

Congressman Ron Paul -- Honorary Chairman (Ex Officio member)

Ronnie Paul -- Chairman of the Board

John Tate -- President

Jesse Benton -- Senior Vice President

Lori Pyeatt -- Secretary/Treasurer

Debra Medina

Dr. Richard Hardoin

I guess I can see why gulch doesn't think this movement is about Ron Paul, focused on him, led by him, etc... Just launched by him. A sort of deistic notion, though perhaps we should write that "Paulistic."

Bill P

[galtgulch]

"How do you come to that conclusion?" Easily.

Do you advocate we keep military bases in 130 foreign countries?

Yes, until we eliminate the specific folks that killed 2, 974 of my neighbors including personal friends, but I guess Boston did not get hit so your skirt is dry, mines not.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/cartoo...ltoon042309.gif

Are you in favor of the kind of foreign intervention such as led to the instillation of the Shah of Iran in 1953? Red Herring - False Man fallacy

Totally irrelevant to Ron Paul today.

Are you in favor of the kind of trade embargoes which led to deaths of tens of thousands of children in Iraq but didn't hurt Saddam? Yes. And a lot worse. And I hate the fact that you think that answering this question begging question wins you the argument.

What is your definition of isolationism? You used the term, you define it and then we will talk.

Was George Washington an isolationist? Yes.

Adam

Adam,

It is rather gallant and chivalrous for you to answer the questions I asked Judith, who is the one who mentioned isolationism first.

The 1800 military bases have been everywhere for decades and most have nothing to do with defending our country from anyone. It costs the American taxpayer a trillion dollars a year but something tells me that before long Bernanke and Geithner will be issuing a trillion dollar Federal Reserve Note.

Actually I have no idea what the rationale or argument is to attempt to justify all those bases. You are the one in favor of them and more so I guess that makes you an advocate of Empire.

I thought the libertarian position was free trade with all individuals in whichever countries. I don't consider that to be isolationist.

I wondered what took Bush three weeks before he attacked which gave the leaders a chance to flee from the office buildings in Afganistan. I certainly thought he should have acted as soon as he knew. I also thought the weapons of mass destruction were trucked out of Iraq into hiding in Syria where they still are.

I do not claim any wisdom regarding our foreign policy except to defend us from invasion or terrorist attacks.

In the meantime the government is intervening in so many of our industries with virtually no respect for private ownership especially of professionals in medicine where they are forced to participate in the govt programs and forbidden to contract with their patients directly.

It is easy for you all to gang up on me but I have yet to hear what you expect is going to resolve the situation, certainly not the growing hordes of innumerable Objectivists.

I still think the common enemy is those statists and interventionists within both major parties as well as the career bureaucrats who are not subject to re election.

Of course we disagree with the C4L people who are prolife but at least they oppose statism. I know that many of them are religious but they can be reasoned with on economic issues and political matters. If we worked with them so that we got to know each other in person perhaps we could resolve other issues in the realm of ethics as well.

www.campaignforliberty.com 2 May 150,674

gulch

[Selene]

"the libertarian position", as if there is a libertarian stone statue that spits out positions - should never be a suicide pact.

Do you even have a clue as to outlandishly naive this is >> "...before he attacked which gave the leaders a chance to flee from the office buildings in Afghanistan." [sic]. These folks have never been completely defeated in over 1000 years. Their power structure is not in office buildings.

Good gosh Gulch have you no sense of how dangerous the world is?

Adam

[galtgulch]

"the libertarian position", as if there is a libertarian stone statue that spits out positions - should never be a suicide pact.

Do you even have a clue as to outlandishly naive this is >> "...before he attacked which gave the leaders a chance to flee from the office buildings in Afghanistan." [sic]. These folks have never been completely defeated in over 1000 years. Their power structure is not in office buildings.

Good gosh Gulch have you no sense of how dangerous the world is?

Adam

Adam,

You are really good at what you do here. I just thought I would let you know that when you ask questions like the one above my respect for you drops another notch. I will not tell you the words that go through my mind but you can figure that out yourself.

I remember reading that there was some sort of headquarters of government officials in a large office building in Kabul and that by the time three weeks later that Bush attacked in some way they had all dispersed. I don't suppose it was the entire leadership which we all know live deep in underground tunnels in the mountains in Bora Bora.

At the moment I have more to fear from our own government although there is always the possibility that the terrorists will create a dirty bomb in a dozen major cities or at suburban malls. Have you figured out how to prevent that from happening?

www.campaignforliberty.com 2May 150695

gulch

Edited May 3, 2009 by galtgulch

[Selene]

Precisely.

Therefore, we have to as citizens be consistent. We have two enemies foreign and domestic, the problem is the domestic ones are the damn government.

What do you know about the "penalties" that allegedly exist for not filling out the "long form", they tried that a decade ago and it had no teeth. Is there something new?

Adam