To Grow as an Objectivist

[Xray]

And according to Barbara Branden, the primary (reason) and its corollary (rejection of faith), was and remained the philosophical issue most important to Rand.

Xray,

Please define "philosophical" as you understand how Barbara Branden meant it.

In my understanding, it is heavily weighted on epistemological effects here, not metaphysics. Combating the effects of faith were important to Rand because faith-based information (1) is unreliable, (2) hides the motives of evil people, and (3) makes a person doubt his own knowledge. In that sense, yes it is important. Evil folks kill and enslave people and Rand wanted to neutralize them by pulling the covers off their intellectual con game.

But in the technical sense of constructing a philosophy from the ground up, faith isn't even considered on the metaphysical level in Objectivism (in the axiomatic concepts). On other levels, it is treated as the chosen alternative to reason, but this is already on the ethical level.

Michael

I always have problems with the word "metaphysical" here since it is (also) used in philosophical discussions as relating to transcendence only. For example, John Doe might say in a discussion. "I reject any metaphysical speculations, and therefore the question as to whether there is an afterlife or not is of no interest to me."

Rand used the word in the sense "view of reality".

Imo Rand's rejection of faith ran deeper than the mere combating of the effects of faith. She lambasted religion as the "enemy of the ability to think".

I would say B. Branden's use of the word 'philosophical' here refers to the complete objectivist thought system of Ayn Rand.

If necessary, we can ask Barbara for further clarification directly here at OL.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Xray

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I always have problems with the word "metaphysical" here since it is (also) used in philosophical discussions as relating to transcendence only. For example, John Doe might say in a discussion. "I reject any metaphysical speculations, and therefore the question as to whether there is an afterlife or not is of no interest to me."

Rand used the word in the sense "view of reality".

Xray,

This is correct, so long as we understand that view/reality implies there is a reality independent of the viewer, but no viewer independent of reality. It is refreshing to see someone seeking to understand the concepts and use of language (including referents) in the Objectivist orbit, and comparing that to their habitual concepts and usage. This is the point where true agreement and/or disagreement starts.

I would say B. Branden's use of the word 'philosophical' here refers to the complete objectivist thought system of Ayn Rand.

If necessary, we can ask Barbara for further clarification directly here at OL.

That is an excellent idea.

Michael

[Alfonso Jones]

I'd have to know what you meant by that. It was a part of it.

Read Atlas Shrugged, for instance. Does Rand's atheism seem a major theme, or a very minor one? Ditto for The Fountainhead. It's there, explicitly in Galt's speech. Where else, explicitly?

If it had been as much a pillar or foundation of her thought as you maintain, surely she would have spoken of it more.

Read her essays in the periodicals - Objectivist Newsletter, The Objectivist, The Ayn Rand Letter. She just didn't spend much time on the subject.

Bill P

It obviously WAS a major theme.

Barbara Branden wrote:

"The absolutism of reason with its corollary, the rejection of faith, was and remained, the philosophical issue most important to the philosophical issue most important to Rand.

Ayn." (end quote)

(Source: The passion of Ayn Rand, chapter "The Fountainhead", p. 165).

Good and relevant quote. I urge you to read it carefully - it makes the point I have been making. Thanks for citing it. Reason is a pillar. The rejection of faith or "other" means to knowledge is a consequence, and leads to atheism.

Do you see the point?

Bill P

The point you have been making has already been clarified in the discussion. I agree with you that her reason led her to reject faith. She claimed that objectivism can't be reconciled with religion. The discussion was about a poster claiming that (I'm paraphrasing) objectivism can be a helpful tool in seeing the good in religion, and it was that statement I debated because imo Rand's philosophy contradicts it.

A corollary is not a primary principle.

The corollary is subordinate to the primary by definition.

Michael

And according to Barbara Branden, the primary (reason) and its corollary (rejection of faith), was and remained the philosophical issue most important to Rand.

Nathaniel Branden reports, in "My Years with Ayn Rand," page 46:

"I became an atheist at thirteen for two reasons," she said. "First, because there were no rational grounds for believing in God. Second, and terribly important to me, because God was held to be the greatest entity in the universe. That made man inferior, and I resented the idea that mam was inferior to anything."

Bill P

[Alfonso Jones]

I'd have to know what you meant by that. It was a part of it.

Read Atlas Shrugged, for instance. Does Rand's atheism seem a major theme, or a very minor one? Ditto for The Fountainhead. It's there, explicitly in Galt's speech. Where else, explicitly?

If it had been as much a pillar or foundation of her thought as you maintain, surely she would have spoken of it more.

Read her essays in the periodicals - Objectivist Newsletter, The Objectivist, The Ayn Rand Letter. She just didn't spend much time on the subject.

Bill P

It obviously WAS a major theme.

Barbara Branden wrote:

"The absolutism of reason with its corollary, the rejection of faith, was and remained, the philosophical issue most important to the philosophical issue most important to Rand.

Ayn." (end quote)

(Source: The passion of Ayn Rand, chapter "The Fountainhead", p. 165).

Good and relevant quote. I urge you to read it carefully - it makes the point I have been making. Thanks for citing it. Reason is a pillar. The rejection of faith or "other" means to knowledge is a consequence, and leads to atheism.

Do you see the point?

Bill P

The point you have been making has already been clarified in the discussion. I agree with you that her reason led her to reject faith. She claimed that objectivism can't be reconciled with religion. The discussion was about a poster claiming that (I'm paraphrasing) objectivism can be a helpful tool in seeing the good in religion, and it was that statement I debated because imo Rand's philosophy contradicts it.

A corollary is not a primary principle.

The corollary is subordinate to the primary by definition.

Michael

And according to Barbara Branden, the primary (reason) and its corollary (rejection of faith), was and remained the philosophical issue most important to Rand.

Nathaniel Branden reports, in "My Years with Ayn Rand," page 46:

"I became an atheist at thirteen for two reasons," she said. "First, because there were no rational grounds for believing in God. Second, and terribly important to me, because God was held to be the greatest entity in the universe. That made man inferior, and I resented the idea that mam was inferior to anything."

Bill P