Beggars in Spain (Nancy Kress)

[Christopher]

I recently had the great pleasure to read the Hugo and Nebula winning novel Beggars in Spain. Nancy Kress does a wonderful job I believe of painting a picture between the radical selfish motives of producers, the opposingly radical altruistic motives of consumers, and various points along the spectrum in between.

There were two characterstics of her story that really struck me. The first was that she does a delicate and detailed job of trying to integrate human social behavior with human rights in a number of conflicts that arise within the book. Rather than take the stance that producers ought to bomb the crap out of individuals who threaten them, she draws out several different characters with differing motives - producers (in line with Objectivist ethics) who sympathize only with the lives of other producers; producers (in line with Objectivist ethics) who sympathize with all life; producers who don't sympathize with Objectivist ethics and side with consumers; and of course the consumers. It was well thought-out, and you can see that Kress has deeply considered the issues most salient to Objectivism.

Second, she paints a picture of the future of the United States, not unlike what might be beginning to happen today. I thought it was interesting in the sense that her future looks like a capitalist-socialist nation, with authentic socialist values (as opposed to corrupt Russia of today and old USSR of yesteryear) in dominance. She illustrates the acts of the minority producers within that socialist context, really bringing the different motivations of the characters clashing together. Creepy and I hope she's wrong, but absolutely fascinating.

This is some of the best Scifi has to offer in the realm of Objectivist ethical considerations, and I recommend it highly. Kress has continued this conflict between interpersonal and individual living within the Probability series as well.

Christopher

[anonrobt]

I recently had the great pleasure to read the Hugo and Nebula winning novel Beggars in Spain. Nancy Kress does a wonderful job I believe of painting a picture between the radical selfish motives of producers, the opposingly radical altruistic motives of consumers, and various points along the spectrum in between.

There were two characterstics of her story that really struck me. The first was that she does a delicate and detailed job of trying to integrate human social behavior with human rights in a number of conflicts that arise within the book. Rather than take the stance that producers ought to bomb the crap out of individuals who threaten them, she draws out several different characters with differing motives - producers (in line with Objectivist ethics) who sympathize only with the lives of other producers; producers (in line with Objectivist ethics) who sympathize with all life; producers who don't sympathize with Objectivist ethics and side with consumers; and of course the consumers. It was well thought-out, and you can see that Kress has deeply considered the issues most salient to Objectivism.

Second, she paints a picture of the future of the United States, not unlike what might be beginning to happen today. I thought it was interesting in the sense that her future looks like a capitalist-socialist nation, with authentic socialist values (as opposed to corrupt Russia of today and old USSR of yesteryear) in dominance. She illustrates the acts of the minority producers within that socialist context, really bringing the different motivations of the characters clashing together. Creepy and I hope she's wrong, but absolutely fascinating.

This is some of the best Scifi has to offer in the realm of Objectivist ethical considerations, and I recommend it highly. Kress has continued this conflict between interpersonal and individual living within the Probability series as well.

Christopher

And I believe there is a sequel or two in that, too... would had mentioned her name with those others listed for home schooling books to read if had remembered [my books are, for the most part, almost all yet in storage]...

[tjohnson]

Second, she paints a picture of the future of the United States, not unlike what might be beginning to happen today. I thought it was interesting in the sense that her future looks like a capitalist-socialist nation, with authentic socialist values (as opposed to corrupt Russia of today and old USSR of yesteryear) in dominance.

A little off the topic but I think the issues are more clearly portrayed when using language like individualist-socialist, or individualism vs. socialism. I think the word 'capitalism' has been hijacked from its original meaning and actually confuses the issues.

[emb021]

The sequels are:

"Beggars and Choosers"

"Beggars Ride"

I had heard about the first one, but only bits and pieces, and not enought info to want to read it. May have to rethink that.

[Selene]

Chris:

"...authentic socialist values..." Now you can list the top ten socialist values. Yes?

Adam

[Christopher]

Chris:

"...authentic socialist values..." Now you can list the top ten socialist values. Yes?

Adam

Errr... how about:

1. Death

2. Self-sacrifice

3. a backrub for all those who ask

4. Destruction

5. Looting

6. Pillaging

7. Apple Pie

8. Pain

9. Death

10. Cake (thanks Marie!)

Actually, what I meant was that even though everybody on this forum knows socialist values equate to death, Kress wrote about a future that was socialist without personal corruption and personal power-grabbing so frequented by Stalin et al. (instead, it was social power-grabbing).

[Selene]

Chris:

Never assume on this forum lol.

Seriously, I am a serious sci fi reader, but the last decade or so I have not kept up on new sci fi authors. Harlan Ellison and the Dune sequences through his son is new stuff for me.

Therefore, I am operating in the dark with this authoress.

Did "social power-grabbing" mean lots of glitter and a really kewl posse of "hanger oners", kinda like Mike Tyson's camp or O'Biwan the MAGNIFICENT's staff and cabinet?

Or, did people get sent to nor social powerful death camps and gulogs for the Saturday night starvation dance?

Adam

[Christopher]

Here's a quick breakdown of the story:

The main character is raised on Objectivist ethics. Things unfold, and she finds herself split between two main groups: the socialist consumers and the aggressive producers who don't value the life of the consumers. The story happens, makes for a great book. First climax occurs between consumers and producers.

[Here's a semi-spoiler, but not major]

Eventually, Kress' future vision is one in which the consumer majority has won out. There are a certain set of free benefits for everyone in the US, including food, housing, clothing, etc. Most people don't work because there's no incentive. There are also a very small minority of producers ( <1% of population) who are so efficient that they produce for the majority. Because the majority is in power, the majority taxes the crap out of the producers. Those taxes are all used for meeting the basic needs of everyone else. Eventually the producers again fight back (2nd climax). Many ethical considerations are taken into this battle and all are seriously treated.

It's a beautiful and eerie vision, but one that has relative merit given today's political direction.

Christopher

Chris:

Never assume on this forum lol.

Seriously, I am a serious sci fi reader, but the last decade or so I have not kept up on new sci fi authors. Harlan Ellison and the Dune sequences through his son is new stuff for me.

Therefore, I am operating in the dark with this authoress.

Did "social power-grabbing" mean lots of glitter and a really kewl posse of "hanger oners", kinda like Mike Tyson's camp or O'Biwan the MAGNIFICENT's staff and cabinet?

Or, did people get sent to nor social powerful death camps and gulogs for the Saturday night starvation dance?

Adam

[Selene]

Chris:

So, "...fight back..." as in violently (which I have no problem at all with)?

Adam

[Christopher]

Chris:

So, "...fight back..." as in violently (which I have no problem at all with)?

Adam

There are many ways to fight, both violently and elsewise. Kress uses a variety. I recommend the book highly. If you read it, I'd love to hear what you think of the conclusion.

Christopher

[Christopher]

The sequels are:

"Beggars and Choosers"

"Beggars Ride"

I had heard about the first one, but only bits and pieces, and not enought info to want to read it. May have to rethink that.

Thanks for quoting the sequels.

I just picked up Beggars and Choosers (a Hugo nominee), and she referenced John Galt! After reading Beggars in Spain, it was clear she had him in her thoughts.

[emb021]

I would be curious as to what Kress's views are on Objectivism/libertarianism. I get no sense from her site of being in favor of it.

I know at times some authors follow certain philisophical beliefs. Some times this colors their works, and for me, if its a view I don't agree with, makes it very hard for me to read their works.

For instance, I read a couple of books by a Michael Z. Williamson (Freehold and The Weapon). In Freehold he shows a very libertarian planetary society who has to deal with the invasion of a highly socialist UN. He doesn't use his story to promote said society, but shows it to be overall pretty good. But some of his comments on his website make me think he isn't a libertarian, so its puzzling.

[Christopher]

I would be curious as to what Kress's views are on Objectivism/libertarianism. I get no sense from her site of being in favor of it.

I know at times some authors follow certain philisophical beliefs. Some times this colors their works, and for me, if its a view I don't agree with, makes it very hard for me to read their works.

For instance, I read a couple of books by a Michael Z. Williamson (Freehold and The Weapon). In Freehold he shows a very libertarian planetary society who has to deal with the invasion of a highly socialist UN. He doesn't use his story to promote said society, but shows it to be overall pretty good. But some of his comments on his website make me think he isn't a libertarian, so its puzzling.

In Kress' first book, she doesn't come out ever quoting anything related specifically to Objectivism. I often thought that perhaps she didn't want to be associated to (and written off as) an Objectivist. Also, there is the fundamental reality that true Objectivists aren't Objectivists at all since we adhere to our own values (and not those of a designated group). We could name Madison or Franklin as practicing Objectivist ethics, but we would never say they are Objectivists.

Rather than depend on societal/cultural associations, perhaps for writers it's best to describe things as they are, not simply label them.