Conspiracies

[Dragonfly]

Discussions with conspiracy nuts are a waste of time, as they are True Believers, just like ufo nuts or creationists, who think that they must spam all kinds of forums to deliver their silly message. These trolls are best ignored.

[dougplumb]

As far as experts go, I do not need a mathematician to tell me that 2+2 isn't 5. I don't need a tree scientist to tell me that if you chop down a tree it doesn't suddenly turn into dust and fall straight down (This analogy was used by a Phd engineer in describing 9/11 (both structural engineering & material science Phd - Judy Wood)

I have a bachelors degree in engineering and have personally spoke to many top experts regarding the collapses of the buildings on 9/11. They laugh and agree that it is as ridiculous as it looks. Those buildings didn't "fall" down.

If you want experts, there is a list of them here: http://patriotsquestion911.com/ (for those that dare to look)

There are only a few "experts" like Ben Chertoff (who is related to Michael Chertoff) who print things like what we saw in Popular mechanics. The whole official version is supported by only a handful of high ranking establishment engineers, and the official version was constantly changing as conspiracy theorists pointed out lies and impossibilities. A lot of engineers depend on the military industrial complex and cannot speak out. They want big screen TV's and expensive cars.

Who here believes man is causing global warming ? Isn't there a bunch of experts flogging that one ?

You cannot trust the government experts in a fascist society.

[dougplumb]

Dragonfly: Show me one single piece of evidence that supports the governments version of 9/11. I don't mean something that you heard on Anderson Coopers 360 [maximum spin] - I mean evidence.

[tjohnson]

Doug, I am not discounting what you say nor painting you with the same "conspiracy nut" brush that other here are doing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a conspiracy but you have to admit you will be fighting an uphill battle getting widespread acceptance of it.

[Selene]

Doug:

Deep breath. Now, my question was what do we do and your answer was:

"I think we should try and inform as many people as possible, through any means. Police and military and leaders need to know there is an aware public, otherwise they cannot do anything to stop this. Public opinion ultimately rules."

This is your answer. Again with no venom intended.

Assuming I completely agree with every single conclusion, we should try to "inform people... through any means".

Any means is defined as.......

Adam

Edited May 21, 2009 by Selene

[dougplumb]

I pass out DVD's and ran for an election. Friends of mine - the more talented ones do interviews. Black Krishna is a friend of mine and he has some of the best interviews I have ever heard. He and Dr. Tim Ball lay out global warming. see http://www.sumo.tv/watch.php?video=2891960 for a magnificent presentation on Global warming.

Also see Black Krishna and Alan Watt on the big picture.

I have also done some speeches that are posted on You Tube.

Its a good idea to give someone a movie - frinstance Alex Jones "Terrorstorm" You can make as many copies of this as you want legally if you order just one copy. Pass it around and say "I'm curious to hear what you think of this movie, I saw it and thought they made some interesting points". I've made 1000 copies of that or more. I put them in mail boxes.

[dougplumb]

see http://www.archive.org/details/BlackKrishn...auds_Mar27_2007 The above link was broken.

[Rich Engle]

Discussions with conspiracy nuts are a waste of time, as they are True Believers, just like ufo nuts or creationists, who think that they must spam all kinds of forums to deliver their silly message. These trolls are best ignored.

I agree, as far as blanket generalizations go. But do you mean that people who discuss it openly such as Doug and I, are among these "nuts," True Believers, and spam forums everywhere delivering silly messages, that we are trolls, best ignored? Just checking to see if we got thrown into your soup, and I don't want to put words in your mouth...

If that ~is~ in fact the case, though, that is a mistake.

[dougplumb]

Which do you mean by conspiracy nuts ? - the ones that believe in the evil terrorist mastermind because they hate our freedom plot, or the ones that believe it was the banks and the military industrial complex trying to expand corporate power?

[Rich Engle]

Talk about sifting through the rubble... Here's a weird one I need to run down.

Facebook. The other day I get a friend request from William Proxmire.

Yeah, you heard me. People do that junk off and on, but you wonder why, really. He died in 2005, for one thing. He was also married to Elsie Rockefeller, one of the great-grandaughters of John D.

Why ME? I'm about as connected to that stuff as Abbie Hoffman, and there it comes rolling in. Geez, in the words of Jerry Seinfeld: "Who ARE these people?"

Just thought I'd break up all the not-so-much fun going on here for a second.

[Judith]

That's why I said the only way to figure it out one way or another is to get in there and sift through it for yourself. It's a lot of work. So, you have to want to do that in the first place.

That's why I started this thread. Rich, if you could put down some of the links you've found to be helpful, I'd find that very useful.

Also, if someone could provide a link for downloading that Club of Rome document for free that doesn't require one to register or anything, that would also be very useful.

Judith

[Brant Gaede]

Which do you mean by conspiracy nuts ? - the ones that believe in the evil terrorist mastermind because they hate our freedom plot, or the ones that believe it was the banks and the military industrial complex trying to expand corporate power?

Doug, generally we are Objectivists here and we consider things through that philosophical lens. Unlike you, we do [edit: not] have a conspiracy philosophy. Deal with it.

--Brant

Edited May 22, 2009 by Brant Gaede

[Rich Engle]

OK, I'll find some free stuff that's downloadable. I don't think there is ONE definitive primer for it, but there are some things.

I'm not dodging it, it's just a lot of statistical density. You find intersects from looking at a lot of stuff, that's where you get the much-desired objective reality.

As far as looking through a philosophical lens, Brant, I'm not sure what you mean there (?) for this. I mean, facism, elitism, small rich cadres, they have their own weird philosophies. ~I~ don't believe in rituals (at least for a way of life; rituals have uses): the point is these kind of folk do.

When you look at elite culture, you find some real sicko stuff, and a lot of it involves worshipping death. You can look at a sick bastard like artist Damian Hirst, what he makes, and what he commands at auctions. You can dig up very high end restaurants (in NYC, for instance) where they enjoy being served very expensive necrotic, dead critters. This crap actually goes down (I think that was an inadvertent and bad pun), in that kind of cult that worships death itself, still, in essence, worshipping the god Ba. These are people that have the catbird seat as far as financial control, and other domination that goes with it.

That's just the outside of the sickness, but it is for sure there, and you have to wonder why the cream of the crop are so very involved in that stuff.

[dougplumb]

"Doug, generally we are Objectivists here and we consider things through that philosophical lens. "

lets hear your take on 9/11 through that lens.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Doug Plumb

[dougplumb]

The single best thing to watch is proabably "The Money Masters: How The Federal Reserve Stole America". Its free on Google.

Then watch "9/11 Road To Tyranny" also free on Google, Then "Terrorstorm", also free.

Jones thoroughly backs up everything he says, thats why so many establishment supporters HATE him. These last two were done by Jones.

Then watch "EndGame" also by Jones.

That should give you a good overall view, but start with The Money Masters.

[Selene]

It is like a skip in an old record!

"Jones

thoroughly backs up everything <<<<<therefore, you will watch this and agree with me!

he says, thats why so many establishment supporters

HATE <<<<<I got the hating him and I can read.

him."

And yes, I will watch them.

Adam

[Alfonso Jones]

I've been meaning to read Foucault's Pendulum for some time now. I guess it's time.

Bill P

[ginny]

I'm going to be so sorry I'm asking again, but here goes: General S. and I have asked a very simple, non-complicated question: what makes you think 9/11 is a conspiracy. Doug, Rich, can neither of you answer. Doug, I don't care about DVD you've handed out or things like that. Please, just answer. If you two continue to walz around this simple question, you really can't blame anyone for calling you names.

Shall have a go at it, gents? The question is simple. Just a nice broad answer that is understandle will suffice.

Ginny

[tjohnson]

I've been looking at some of the material and I will admit it looks suspicious how the debris seems to be projectile-like at the top of the buildings at the beginning of the collapses. And apparently there is evidence of explosives in the debris. So lets say there was opportunity to set up some explosive devices in the buildings prior to 9/11 so did CIA agents do this? Would American CIA agents do this to their fellow citizens? What about the hijacked planes, were they not hijacked by fanatical religious terrorists? Details please.

[Jonathan]

As far as photographic evidence goes, I don't depend on it much on 9/11 except to see the manner and speed for which the buildings went down.

Well, earlier in the discussion, you claimed that you had seen "squibs" on video. You asserted that they were most definitely "squibs," and not something that you merely interpreted as looking like what you imagined squibs might look like.

You also claimed with apparent certainty that a confession tape showing bin Laden was not bin Laden.

So, do you now retract those statements?

I have a bachelors degree in engineering and have personally spoke to many top experts regarding the collapses of the buildings on 9/11. They laugh and agree that it is as ridiculous as it looks. Those buildings didn't "fall" down.

I thought that you had said earlier that you are not an engineer. Which type of engineering do you have a bachelor's degree in? Your profile says that one of your interests is audio engineering. Is that what you have a degree in? And you think that your audio engineering degree somehow qualifies you to comment on structural engineering?

Beyond your own qualifications (or lack thereof), in reading conspiracy theorists' views, and the alleged expert opinions that they cite, I'm often reminded of the "top experts" who opined about the shuttle Columbia disaster. Many of them believed, contrary to actual expert physicists' views, that a stray piece of foam would not have been able to damage the shuttle's wing. A mock-up of the wing's leading edge had to be made and tested with a foam projectile in order to convince them.

J

[dougplumb]

Johnathan: "I thought that you had said earlier that you are not an engineer. Which type of engineering do you have a bachelor's degree in? Your profile says that one of your interests is audio engineering. Is that what you have a degree in? And you think that your audio engineering degree somehow qualifies you to comment on structural engineering? "

I am an electrical engineer, and have taken structural and material science courses, but that is not relevant. What we are talking about here is common sense. There are many more experts in physics, structural engineering and material science questioning the official version than endorsing it, and for the same common sense reason.

Johnathan: "Well, earlier in the discussion, you claimed that you had seen "squibs" on video. You asserted that they were most definitely "squibs," and not something that you merely interpreted as looking like what you imagined squibs might look like."

I doubt that a filtering algorithm would produce artifacts that look like squibs. They are either there in the original footage or they were added in later by post processing.

Tell me Johnathan, what is your objective take on 9/11 ? Why waste bandwidth just doing character attacks when you can contribute to the discussion. Lets hear your objective theory on 9/11.

general semanticist: "And apparently there is evidence of explosives in the debris. So lets say there was opportunity to set up some explosive devices in the buildings prior to 9/11 so did CIA agents do this? Would American CIA agents do this to their fellow citizens? What about the hijacked planes, were they not hijacked by fanatical religious terrorists? Details please."

I don't know who actually put the bombs in the building. I would imagine that a private contractor from somewhere did it. Secret missions get carried out all the time by the military, and certainly by private thugs that will do anything for money.

As far as the hijacked planes go there is no evidence that suggests the hijackers ever existed that I know of. I know the flight manifests were first released without their names on it. The whole story around the hijacked planes is full of lies [cell phone calls] and there is no physical evidence that supports terrorists on the planes.

[dougplumb]

"what makes you think 9/11 is a conspiracy. Doug, Rich, can neither of you answer."

Who gained from it ? Did Usama gain anything ? Would he strike at a center for banking and commerce because he hates our freedom ? Why would Usama do this ?

Did the military industrial complex gain anything ? - Yes - money for more power to the bankers. people will be taxed more to get a bigger military to protect us from these terrorists. More war and more drug and oil profit (yes, the government deals dope but that is another topic)

9/11 gave the gov an excuse to invade Afghanistan, they needed to protect their opium crops from the Taliban who had burned 90 % of them. The armies were already at the border waiting for 9/11 and a reason to attack- which occured 3 weeks after 9/11. Heroin export went from 40 billion to now over 600 billion.

The government power over its citizens certainly increased with the police state. There will be no chance of the citizenry rejecting Sustainable Development or the UN now, the military is watching everyone to keep them safe from terrorists. Soon guns will be confiscated to further protect us from terrorists.

The night before 9/11 Rumsfeld announces that 2.3 trillion had gone missing from the Pentagon. The American public need to forget about that and the rediculous subsequent explanation for it.

I go into more detail in an earlier post on this stuff.

[tjohnson]

As far as the hijacked planes go there is no evidence that suggests the hijackers ever existed that I know of. I know the flight manifests were first released without their names on it. The whole story around the hijacked planes is full of lies [cell phone calls] and there is no physical evidence that supports terrorists on the planes.

But who would do a suicide mission besides suicide bomber-type individuals? Are you suggesting that government officials hired some thugs to fly jets into buildings?

[dougplumb]

I think the planes were electronically controlled to fly into the buildings.

[Rich Engle]

ginny:

Doug is right in that the videos he recommended are a good starting point. Watch those first. Otherwise, there's no frame of reference. I mean, it would take forever just to write out outlines from those...why not just look at them?