Zappa

[arete1952]

btw - If you want to listen to Britney, go right ahead. Just don't blame me for it. I'm indifferent to her work, but I won't hold it against you if you are not.

Michael

Michael:

I have no interest in Spears' music...or Zappa's for that matter...my tastes run more along the lines of Palestrina, Monterverdi, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, Copland, Corigliano, Rouse...as I say in my Personal Statement: "Life is too short to spend time listening to bad music."

Ken

Edited February 3, 2009 by arete1952

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ken,

I was ribbing you.

Here is some unsolicited advice. Don't get too snobbish about pop music. I used to be that way as a classical artist. (From your list of composers, you would probably like some of my classical compositions, but most were never recorded when they were performed. I intend to run after them in Brazil later—they are all over the place down there—recover copies of the scores and get the best of them properly recorded.)

When I started producing pop music, I kept complicating it too much. Being simple and direct and speaking to people's hearts is a difficult art. Not everyone can do it. If you are a composer, try it. You'll see what I mean.

There was a very intuitive pop artist named Geraldo Vandré who finally opened my mind on this and taught me my first steps on doing the simple stuff right. Now I can do both.

God, I miss composing...

(narrowing my awareness, staring straight ahead and speaking very slowly) I shall do Internet marketing. I shall do Internet marketing. I shall do Internet marketing. I shall do Internet marketing. I shall do Internet marketing. I shall do Internet marketing. I shall do Internet marketing...

Michael

[Robert Campbell]

Zappa has great technical skill. His writing is interesting if one analyzes its structure. But does the melody evoke strong emotion? To me it seems very cold, like intellectualized Jazz and ornate but otherwise emotionally uninteresting classical music from the baroque or early classical music. And the worst part is that his lyrics, when he has them, seem to do nothing but undermine anything of value. ...

At this point, I've listened to maybe 18 of his songs. Is there anything non-instrumental worth listening too if you are not a Jazz musician?

Is there anything with sentiment?

Ted,

The You Tube clips that you and others have linked to will give a newbie some idea of Frank Zappa's work (though I must point out that the audio is rather badly distorted on "Peaches En Regalia," quite unnecessarily as it uses the studio recording as released on Hot Rats.)

Zappa didn't write any numbers on the order of "Dein ist Mein Ganzes Herz." His love songs verged on the purposely silly, like "Wowie Zowie" or the nouveau doowops he did during his earlier years. It is up to the listener to decide whether that is a deal-breaker. I suspect that some of the jazz I like best is the kind you consider overintellectualized. Same may go for some of the baroque and early classical music (do you think J. S. Bach's output was mostly emotionally uninteresting?). Or even the compositions of Camille Saint-Saëns. In fact, on his album Uncle Meat Zappa contributed two sets of variations that you could easily call neo-baroque, on which he played harpsichord...

As for the vulgar satire in Zappa's lyrics, I don't think satire as a genre is either post-modern or cowardly, though post-modernists or cowardly people might try it, just as they might try a bunch of other things. Was Jonathan Swift a baddy? François Rabelais? Mark Twain, in some of his moods? Jay Ward (the creator of Rocky and Bullwinkle)? I enjoyed the clip of "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow" that Kat posted.

I don't know whether Zappa ever read H. L. Mencken, but they had in common a pronounced distaste for "Uplift" and "uplifters." As for me, I like some music that is uplifting, but tend to be put off by compositions or performers that are striving too hard for that particular effect.

Robert Campbell

[kiaer.ts]

Zappa has great technical skill. His writing is interesting if one analyzes its structure. But does the melody evoke strong emotion? To me it seems very cold, like intellectualized Jazz and ornate but otherwise emotionally uninteresting classical music from the baroque or early classical music. And the worst part is that his lyrics, when he has them, seem to do nothing but undermine anything of value. ...

At this point, I've listened to maybe 18 of his songs. Is there anything non-instrumental worth listening too if you are not a Jazz musician?

Is there anything with sentiment?

Ted,

The You Tube clips that you and others have linked to will give a newbie some idea of Frank Zappa's work (though I must point out that the audio is rather badly distorted on "Peaches En Regalia," quite unnecessarily as it uses the studio recording as released on Hot Rats.)

Zappa didn't write any numbers on the order of "Dein ist Mein Ganzes Herz." His love songs verged on the purposely silly, like "Wowie Zowie" or the nouveau doowops he did during his earlier years. It is up to the listener to decide whether that is a deal-breaker. I suspect that some of the jazz I like best is the kind you consider overintellectualized. Same may go for some of the baroque and early classical music (do you think J. S. Bach's output was mostly emotionally uninteresting?). Or even the compositions of Camille Saint-Saëns. In fact, on his album Uncle Meat Zappa contributed two sets of variations that you could easily call neo-baroque, on which he played harpsichord...

As for the vulgar satire in Zappa's lyrics, I don't think satire as a genre is either post-modern or cowardly, though post-modernists or cowardly people might try it, just as they might try a bunch of other things. Was Jonathan Swift a baddy? François Rabelais? Mark Twain, in some of his moods? Jay Ward (the creator of Rocky and Bullwinkle)? I enjoyed the clip of "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow" that Kat posted.

I don't know whether Zappa ever read H. L. Mencken, but they had in common a pronounced distaste for "Uplift" and "uplifters." As for me, I like some music that is uplifting, but tend to be put off by compositions or performers that are striving too hard for that particular effect.

Robert Campbell

Robert, is there a song that Zappa wrote whose lyrics weren't silly or satirical?

I am not looking for a defense of the man, just an example of a positive, uplifting work of his. All I am getting are defenses.

Yes, I like Bach's Fugue in D and Saint Saens' Organ Symphony and even his Danse Macabre.

I think it's rather easy to point to a musician's best or at least most popular works.

Bill kindly and very helpfully provided these:

Peaches en Regalia

Watermelon in Easter Hay

Twenty Small Cigars

Chunga's Revenge

Is there nothing better?

[Rich Engle]

I'm sitting here trying to be productive in the middle of grieving, and all I get is someone correcting my typing ("Er, yes, yes, bit, but...Mr. Engle, the PRAPHER spelling is...COP-Land...fuckin' Objectivists...and the Cha-Cha is really the Cha-Cha-Cha...two steps forward, two steps back, Cha-Cha-Cha!"). Yes, yes, Copland, I know...I went to skool an stuff, I'm not dumb lahk everbuddy sez, I can do stuff, and stuff.

There's a wonderful program airing on Ovation right now about Cop(e)land's collaboration with Martha Graham.

My POINT, good lawdy, Ted, is that pallette is pallette...NOT criteria. It's taste, and viva la difference. No, I can't think of any baby I love u Zappa tune. I'm sure he left that to others. If you don't think straight about stuff like that, sounds to me it means that Zappa goes down on the food chain, under, oh, ABBA, Bobby Darin, maybe. The Femmes... Oh....yikes... the comparison game is worthless for the most part, outside of stuff that's just pure, unbridled poop. But craft is craft, intensity is intensity, noble and elegant are noble and elegant, even if it's written about yellow snow. Frank was Frank, and there will never be another that gets near him. He spawned, too. Listen to Steve Vai play "For The Love of God," or "Building The Church." If that stuff doesn't put some shazizzle in your fizzle, well...

rde

Edited February 3, 2009 by Rich Engle

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Come to think of it, I can't think of anything heroic and uplifting that SNL has ever done, but I still like to watch the show. I probably would hate if if I expected (or demanded) to see an episode of Law and Order or Little House on the Prairie presented there once in a while.

A good entertainer with humongous success knows the wisdom of sticking to his niche. He lets to viewer change the channel and doesn't do it for him.

Michael

[kiaer.ts]

I take it both of you agree then that the songs Dave suggested are demonstrative of Zappa's best?

PLEASE! Do not respond with another defense of the poor man! Nor with an analogy as to how a good hamburger from Wendy's is not heroic and uplifting, but can be entretaining nonetheless. I simply want to know the guy's best, so that if there's something I like I can enjoy it. Stop confusing me with someone who would think that because I don't enjoy it others shouldn't. I am not trying to prove that Zappa is unlikable. I am asking you to help me.

As for Saturday Night Live, I laughed at Roy Rules, Dear Sister, and the parody of the candidates' preemptive apologies. But if someone asked me for good comedy I'd suggest South Park and House.

[Rich Engle]

I was emailing to (someone) about this thread and (they) said this here was more direct to my points. Sometimes you get better results when you're doing stuff for some other purpose:

"For some reason, there's always been this thing in O-hell where they want to standardize art. I never got that from reading Rand's work, although she was truly horny about Romantic art. Yeah, maybe to-date that was the best movement. Probably was in her time. But can't they see as soon as you freeze things, they die? What if they got what they wanted? That all art was Romantic...ah, the highest level, the greatest passion, blah blah fuckin' blah.

I know artists and musicians, and I know one thing for sure about them--if you restrict them, they either run, or fight; fighting usually involving doing the exact opposite of whatever has been proposed as officiallly sanctioned art.

You can't use fuckin' Aristotlean logic to constrict style. Jesus, what is wrong with these people? Don't they know that that attitude KILLS things?"

_____

As to your Wendy's greaseburger thing, Ted...

It's all about the context. Hamburger is like a roasted chicken. Now, if you're hungry, and all you can come up with is a roasted (fried, BBQ'd...) chicken, that's pretty good, because it's the chicken.

Now, on the other hand, if you (and I'm not saying I have ever done this, well, not precisely this anyway) if you are having a hot, steamy fling... You get a room somewhere, and some whiskey, and a a chicken, that can be a peak moment.

You can sit there admiring her, say, replete in slutware, itermittently washed by the flickering neon sign out the window (that's the best if you can get it). You eat the chicken with your hands, drink your whiskey. You kiss, even though you're eating the chicken. After that is up to you.

Now that's good chicken, see?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ted,

I don't know all that much about Zappa's work. I thought that was clear in my opening post.

I was never interested in Zappa before other than at a huge distance, so I took a look-see. Here is a small part of what I examined, and a few thoughts.

So in order to find new Zappa works for you, I will have to search on the Internet and discover them myself. But I am having a real tough time discerning what you expect to receive.

Normally I get a good idea of your taste and standards, especially from that wonderful blog of yours. This time around I don't. You seem to be trying to pigeonhole Zappa into some category you arrived at somehow and ask for us to disprove it.

I don't know how to do that.

Anyway, I am so short on time I have not even listened to all the links in this thread, although I intend to.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

Michael,

Don't do his effing homework for him...he already has acknowledged that Zappa is (per his judgment), er, "valid" in some respect. He just isn't groovin' it. Not for Ted, mostly, and that's OK.

You know, maybe it's because I'm a musician, but I like almost ALL music. There are very few songs that annoy me. Relatively speaking. What with music being big, and all. Usually, repetition play is what makes you hate something you first started liking. That's what kills songs while they make money.

I'm an experienced music expert, and one thing I know is that is no guarantee. Often, you go back and see things you wrote off, and your now-acquired life experience/wisdom/feel, whatever, tells you that you just weren't up to hearing it right. I had that happen, particularly, lately, with artists like Tom Petty, and Glen Campbell, of all people. It happens. It means you are evolving, your ears, your soul, your emotional center is opening up. You're getting in tune with the universal vibe.

Even bad performances (that's the worst), I can usualy endure, or at least garner enough sympathy for the players for trying. The only ones I really hate are arrogant, talentless douchebags. Those guys, I take apart. They don't like guys like me showing up.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Rich,

In classical music I had an experience like that. I have never liked Brahms on first hearing. Even on 10th hearing.

My conducting teacher, Maestro Eleazar de Carvalho, asked me which composer I did not like when I was putting together my first program to conduct (with the São Paulo State Symphony). I said Brahms right on the spot. So he scheduled me to conduct the Tragic Overture.

I studied it in earnest, conducted it well, and ended up falling in love with his music, although the piano concertos and some of the chamber music still send me into a coma after they get rolling.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

Wow. that's funny you mentioned Brahms, MSK...

I was always like that with Brahms. Oh...you mighta well buried me alive rather than listen to Brahms. I remember being at Cleveland State U. studying theory/harmony/comp and OF COURSE my teacher was a Brahms man. It was drudge, it was horror, it was death to my ears.

I forget when I broke through on that. I think I was just (as I try to do) "giving it another chance" or something... I heard one of his early symphonies, and it all just opened up. I got it. Mahler is like that for me, too.

I wouldn't want a steady diet of Brahms, no need to, but I can hear him well now. Some of it I find glorious.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Rich Engle

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Rich,

To be fair to Ted, you should visit his magnificent blog: Radicals for Happiness. It's a loose compilation of things he finds beautiful from our culture, especially the past.

He has done a stellar job of collecting random drops of joy.

(I really like folks who do good stuff like that.)

Michael

[Selene]

Big second on on Radicals - I have introduced it to over 50 people.

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks, Michael, but Rich is at least correct in this - don't do the work unless you want to do it for yourself. Someone who is a fan should be able to either say, yes, the pieces David suggested to me are a representation of Zappa's best or not. I could certainly reccomend a representative set of the Beatles or Rush's best in various styles if asked.

I am not trying to have anyone disprove my categories, just make myself understood to a bunch of people whom I would think would be interested in (1) understanding each other and (2) suggesting things of value to each other. You have done this before, Michael, and I think I have as well. I am not quite sure what Rich was talking about with the chicken. In any case, I have stomped on no one's baby.

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks for the compliment Mike. I am in the midst of another move, and hope to get back to posting at my blog soon. I even have a Zappa post drafted, but am awaiting a better metaphor that a chicken slut ...

[Rich Engle]

Eh, I've been out there cooking massive meals for the grieving family...phone traffic endless... My dead partner, their dad, husband...grandkid. 1st rule of survival: keep yourself comfortable. Drafting his eulogy in my head for Sat. Wondering what to do with our music. I can barely go down there into our studio... If you ever went to Edison's NJ lab and library...it was like that; seeing remains of Edison's last experiments (when I was there as a kid, sixties, it looked like he was working on synthetic rubber, something I guess he wasn't that good at maybe)...

The ink was barely dry on the desk, his lyrics for me. Notes on arrangements. Poems. Cassette tapes, dictations and playing sketches done the day he died. We sat side by side at the console for months. Yeah, so that sucks and I'm staying out of my studio. Bleh. Anyway.

Yes, MSK, oddly...I was just thinking the same thing before I read your suggestion to see Ted's blog. Great minds...

Sure, Ted...I'll go over there. That's only fair and you get good reviews. Hey, I've been around awhile, and you know it. Where did we first meet...hmm? I've been reading you since around Brant (I think him first...). Brant?

Irony: my dead songwriting partner's name was Ted.

Ted, may I see your papers, please? ;)

And don't worry about the chicken thing. I am, as I write this, trying to not do a freewrite that would probably explain it to you, but I'm not sure it would make our OL standards. Mike would probably let me get away with it.

Oh hell, let's just go. Chicken:

I'd rather play music from the hips than from the head. Hips first, at least.

"Rock and Roll is about fucking." --Suzy Roche

Sometimes, you can do stuff with a piece of greasy chicken that, on reflection, you value quite a bit more than you thought...more than other things. More like, "I just wanna do that again."

There's one time I bought a cooked chicken and did that, and I was disappointed in the chicken because it was kind of dry.

But in the end, I remember this one thing I ended up doing with a drumstick that I can only wait until the next time I get to. My girlfriend is a real tornado. Ah, just dating a nice Jewish girl.

I would suggest if a person prefers certain emotional ranges of songs, it means they need that. So, Ted likes that stuff, among other stuff. That's just normal. Me, I get mushy if I listen to too many love songs.

And real good songs associated with certain times in your life, that's a heartbreaker...play over in your mind, over, over.

r

[Robert Campbell]

Rich,

Sorry to hear about your friend. But it's good to have you back on the board.

Ted,

I'll be happy to go through my Zappa albums and give you list of what I consider his best works. But that will have to be tomorrow or Thursday. I'm at a point in my experimental psychology course where the paperwork is flying thick and fast.

I wasn't sure how to respond to your request earlier because your implied requirements came across to me as restrictive. I enjoy a wide range of music, much of which I wouldn't call uplifting in the sense you seemed to have in mind. I've noticed that even when we like the same composers, we often don't prefer the same compositions.

Robert Campbell

[kiaer.ts]

Eh, I've been out there cooking massive meals for the grieving family...phone traffic endless... My dead partner, their dad, husband...grandkid. 1st rule of survival: keep yourself comfortable. Drafting his eulogy in my head for Sat. Wondering what to do with our music. I can barely go down there into our studio... If you ever went to Edison's NJ lab and library...it was like that; seeing remains of Edison's last experiments (when I was there as a kid, sixties, it looked like he was working on synthetic rubber, something I guess he wasn't that good at maybe)...

The ink was barely dry on the desk, his lyrics for me. Notes on arrangements. Poems. Cassette tapes, dictations and playing sketches done the day he died. We sat side by side at the console for months. Yeah, so that sucks and I'm staying out of my studio. Bleh. Anyway.

Yes, MSK, oddly...I was just thinking the same thing before I read your suggestion to see Ted's blog. Great minds...

Sure, Ted...I'll go over there. That's only fair and you get good reviews. Hey, I've been around awhile, and you know it. Where did we first meet...hmm? I've been reading you since around Brant (I think him first...). Brant?

Irony: my dead songwriting partner's name was Ted.

Ted, may I see your papers, please? ;)

And don't worry about the chicken thing. I am, as I write this, trying to not do a freewrite that would probably explain it to you, but I'm not sure it would make our OL standards. Mike would probably let me get away with it.

Oh hell, let's just go. Chicken:

I'd rather play music from the hips than from the head. Hips first, at least.

"Rock and Roll is about fucking." --Suzy Roche

Sometimes, you can do stuff with a piece of greasy chicken that, on reflection, you value quite a bit more than you thought...more than other things. More like, "I just wanna do that again."

There's one time I bought a cooked chicken and did that, and I was disappointed in the chicken because it was kind of dry.

But in the end, I remember this one thing I ended up doing with a drumstick that I can only wait until the next time I get to. My girlfriend is a real tornado. Ah, just dating a nice Jewish girl.

I would suggest if a person prefers certain emotional ranges of songs, it means they need that. So, Ted likes that stuff, among other stuff. That's just normal. Me, I get mushy if I listen to too many love songs.

And real good songs associated with certain times in your life, that's a heartbreaker...play over in your mind, over, over.

And what's wrong with mushy? Sorry about your partner, missed that above. I do not have papers, but trust me, I am a musician only in so far as I know how to play one thing. A stereo. What I enjoy spreads over a very wide range. I will say I have disliked every song of Zappa's that I have ever heard that had lyrics, and have liked (but not yet been wowed by) every instrumental I have heard. I simply like to find things to like.

[Rich Engle]

And, Ted, nothing wrong with mushy as far as I am concerned.

Mostly, I'm just running around setting shit up so I can have that. All roads lead to time off with the woman; the rest is good, but just not that good.

heh,

r

[Alfonso Jones]

Zappa has great technical skill. His writing is interesting if one analyzes its structure. But does the melody evoke strong emotion? To me it seems very cold, like intellectualized Jazz and ornate but otherwise emotionally uninteresting classical music from the baroque or early classical music. And the worst part is that his lyrics, when he has them, seem to do nothing but undermine anything of value. ...

At this point, I've listened to maybe 18 of his songs. Is there anything non-instrumental worth listening too if you are not a Jazz musician?

Is there anything with sentiment?

Ted,

The You Tube clips that you and others have linked to will give a newbie some idea of Frank Zappa's work (though I must point out that the audio is rather badly distorted on "Peaches En Regalia," quite unnecessarily as it uses the studio recording as released on Hot Rats.)

Zappa didn't write any numbers on the order of "Dein ist Mein Ganzes Herz." His love songs verged on the purposely silly, like "Wowie Zowie" or the nouveau doowops he did during his earlier years. It is up to the listener to decide whether that is a deal-breaker. I suspect that some of the jazz I like best is the kind you consider overintellectualized. Same may go for some of the baroque and early classical music (do you think J. S. Bach's output was mostly emotionally uninteresting?). Or even the compositions of Camille Saint-Saëns. In fact, on his album Uncle Meat Zappa contributed two sets of variations that you could easily call neo-baroque, on which he played harpsichord...

As for the vulgar satire in Zappa's lyrics, I don't think satire as a genre is either post-modern or cowardly, though post-modernists or cowardly people might try it, just as they might try a bunch of other things. Was Jonathan Swift a baddy? François Rabelais? Mark Twain, in some of his moods? Jay Ward (the creator of Rocky and Bullwinkle)? I enjoyed the clip of "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow" that Kat posted.

I don't know whether Zappa ever read H. L. Mencken, but they had in common a pronounced distaste for "Uplift" and "uplifters." As for me, I like some music that is uplifting, but tend to be put off by compositions or performers that are striving too hard for that particular effect.

Robert Campbell

Robert, is there a song that Zappa wrote whose lyrics weren't silly or satirical?

I am not looking for a defense of the man, just an example of a positive, uplifting work of his. All I am getting are defenses.

Yes, I like Bach's Fugue in D and Saint Saens' Organ Symphony and even his Danse Macabre.

I think it's rather easy to point to a musician's best or at least most popular works.

Bill kindly and very helpfully provided these:

Peaches en Regalia

Watermelon in Easter Hay

Twenty Small Cigars

Chunga's Revenge

Is there nothing better?

Well, rather than us continuing playing some sort of guessing game, why not provide us with some information?

1) What specific criteria do you use in evaluating music?

2) How specifically did each of there four pieces of music fail, in your personal estimation, against those criteria?

As it is, we're basically left with a blind guessing exercise, not knowing anything of substance (yes, I've read the thread) about what you are really looking for. Not just a few emotive words - but what are your criteria? And a few examples of good and bad against those criteria.

Bill P

[Rich Engle]

Bill whips out some elegant Kung Fu

"Well, rather than us continuing playing some sort of guessing game, why not provide us with some information?

1) What specific criteria do you use in evaluating music?

2) How specifically did each of there four pieces of music fail, in your personal estimation, against those criteria?

As it is, we're basically left with a blind guessing exercise, not knowing anything of substance (yes, I've read the thread) about what you are really looking for. Not just a few emotive words - but what are your criteria? And a few examples of good and bad against those criteria."

It is this little petty virus that goes with Ayn Rand folks. Here, you can look at it backwards:

N Peart, Rush:

Now, none of the standard geeks that have been posting on O sites since green screens have really acknowledged that band. Somewhere, sometime, it happened. It happened because Rush's drummer read Atlas, and he wrote some songs that translated to great selling albums. Meanwhile, most of us dumbass musicians already liked Rush in the first place just because they were a tight, kick ass power trio. Oddly, at around the same time, Rush attracted a contingent of Born Again Christian types. Juxtapose, compare, whatever, those two communities. That's pretty fucked up shit. They saw the same thing. In Rand.

Well, surely one thing I know is that the Xstians never acknowledged Peart's influence (to the point of becoming, aside from a global-class drummer, a novelist). On the other hand, you had a bunch born 'o gin Christians loving Rush, and Triumph. There became this weird connection between Rush, Triumph, Peart, Rand... That was kind of weird.

The next thing you know is you get a bunch of Rush oriented musicians on OL and other sites, AND, you get people that suddenly acknowledge Rush as valid. The latter part of that is what always pissed me off, because normally, those folks would normally do the write off as just another loud rock trio.

Hypocrisy comes to mind, were these folks even capable of developing that sentiment.

It gets that stupid. Quietly acknowledging Rush just because maybe Neal Peart read Atlas, and threw down an album influenced.

Ask him! He's been asked. Read what he said.

Just like every other scenario, the current movement generally tends to respond to change like a sluggy, dry toolbox.

In general, running into most Objectivists is about as fun as fucking a dry pussy. Fortunately, there are exceptions.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Rich Engle

[kiaer.ts]

Zappa has great technical skill. His writing is interesting if one analyzes its structure. But does the melody evoke strong emotion? To me it seems very cold, like intellectualized Jazz and ornate but otherwise emotionally uninteresting classical music from the baroque or early classical music. And the worst part is that his lyrics, when he has them, seem to do nothing but undermine anything of value. ...

At this point, I've listened to maybe 18 of his songs. Is there anything non-instrumental worth listening too if you are not a Jazz musician?

Is there anything with sentiment?

Ted,

The You Tube clips that you and others have linked to will give a newbie some idea of Frank Zappa's work (though I must point out that the audio is rather badly distorted on "Peaches En Regalia," quite unnecessarily as it uses the studio recording as released on Hot Rats.)

Zappa didn't write any numbers on the order of "Dein ist Mein Ganzes Herz." His love songs verged on the purposely silly, like "Wowie Zowie" or the nouveau doowops he did during his earlier years. It is up to the listener to decide whether that is a deal-breaker. I suspect that some of the jazz I like best is the kind you consider overintellectualized. Same may go for some of the baroque and early classical music (do you think J. S. Bach's output was mostly emotionally uninteresting?). Or even the compositions of Camille Saint-Saëns. In fact, on his album Uncle Meat Zappa contributed two sets of variations that you could easily call neo-baroque, on which he played harpsichord...

As for the vulgar satire in Zappa's lyrics, I don't think satire as a genre is either post-modern or cowardly, though post-modernists or cowardly people might try it, just as they might try a bunch of other things. Was Jonathan Swift a baddy? François Rabelais? Mark Twain, in some of his moods? Jay Ward (the creator of Rocky and Bullwinkle)? I enjoyed the clip of "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow" that Kat posted.

I don't know whether Zappa ever read H. L. Mencken, but they had in common a pronounced distaste for "Uplift" and "uplifters." As for me, I like some music that is uplifting, but tend to be put off by compositions or performers that are striving too hard for that particular effect.

Robert Campbell

Robert, is there a song that Zappa wrote whose lyrics weren't silly or satirical?

I am not looking for a defense of the man, just an example of a positive, uplifting work of his. All I am getting are defenses.

Yes, I like Bach's Fugue in D and Saint Saens' Organ Symphony and even his Danse Macabre.

I think it's rather easy to point to a musician's best or at least most popular works.

Bill kindly and very helpfully provided these:

Peaches en Regalia

Watermelon in Easter Hay

Twenty Small Cigars

Chunga's Revenge

Is there nothing better?

Well, rather than us continuing playing some sort of guessing game, why not provide us with some information?

1) What specific criteria do you use in evaluating music?

2) How specifically did each of there four pieces of music fail, in your personal estimation, against those criteria?

As it is, we're basically left with a blind guessing exercise, not knowing anything of substance (yes, I've read the thread) about what you are really looking for. Not just a few emotive words - but what are your criteria? And a few examples of good and bad against those criteria.

Bill P

Bill, I'm sorry I keep calling you Dave.

None of the songs you suggested "fail." And I cannot specify one category that would make a piece of music be a good piece of music. I can enjoy and be moved by:

Concerto in D

Beethoven (you name it)

Rossini Stabat Mater

Siegfried's Funeral March

Nutcracker Suite

Mahler's First Symphony

Stravinsky Rite of Spring

Gershwin

Brother Can You Spare a Dime

Yes South Side of the Sky

Metallica For Whom the Bell Tolls

Guns N Roses - Crazy

Doors Soft Parade

Bette Midler The Rose

so, other than perhaps Drama, I can find no other criterion.

You seem to be suffering under the illusion that I am trying to pass judgment upon, or categorize, or prove something about Zappa. No. I am simply not very familiar with him. I know that people enjoy him. I would like to enjoy him too if I can. That's it. There is certainly no need to respond to me as if you are a dog that has been beaten, and expect another "KASS" whipping at my hands.

If I enjoy an artist, like the Beatles, and someone asks for a suggestion as to their best work, I can form a reccomendation of their best pieces over a wide range - Norwegian Wood, Eleanor Rigby, A Day in the Life, I am the Walrus, Hey Jude, Blackbird, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Helter Skelter, Something, Here Comes the Sun. If you are going to like the Beatles, you are going to like at least a few of those songs immensely.

Since you enjoy Zappa, I am sure you can think of what his best songs are in various genres, and recommend them. I think this is what Bill has done. Those instrumental pieces strike me as good, I have compared them above to other pieces I have liked. If that is his best, then let me know.

[Alfonso Jones]

You seem to be suffering under the illusion that I am trying to pass judgment upon, or categorize, or prove something about Zappa. No. I am simply not very familiar with him. I know that people enjoy him. I would like to enjoy him too if I can. That's it. There is certainly no need to respond to me as if you are a dog that has been beaten, and expect another "KASS" whipping at my hands.

I have no idea where that last sentence came from, or what it is intended to relate to. None whatever. And I find it impossible to reconcile your first sentence with the thread thus far.

I think I'll bow out of this discussion. Communication seems futile.

Bill P

[arete1952]

If I enjoy an artist, like the Beatles, and someone asks for a suggestion as to their best work, I can form a reccomendation of their best pieces over a wide range - Norwegian Wood, Eleanor Rigby, A Day in the Life, I am the Walrus, Hey Jude, Blackbird, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Helter Skelter, Something, Here Comes the Sun. If you are going to like the Beatles, you are going to like at least a few of those songs immensely.

Not that anyone asked me so I hope no one minds if I sound off...

I like the Beatles very much but do not enjoy any of the above songs 'immensely'. In fact I intensely dislike 'I am the Walrus' and 'Helter Skelter' and would never dream of recommending them. 'Hey Jude' bores me silly...I can't say I dislike it as much as the previous two but if I never heard it again that would be fine with me. The others are fine songs to varying degrees but not among my favorites. But then I am something of anomaly as a Beatles fan in that I like the early and middle stuff best...there is not much post-Revolver (Parlophone LP not Capitol) that I really like. I'll take 'Anytime At All', 'No Reply', 'I'll Be Back', 'Things We Said Today' and 'It's Only Love' (among many others from the 1962-66 era) over any of the above. (Yes, I know Norwegian Wood is from that afore-mentioned era...and is, of course, my favorite among the above.)

The best Beatles album is 'Rubber Soul' (Parlophone) with 'A Hard Day's Night' (again Parlophone...always Parlophone ) a very close second.

Just my take and taste on these things....no 'intense offended' (as Archie Bunker used to say) to anyone.

Best,

Ken

Edited February 4, 2009 by arete1952