ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hello.First, let me assure you that I am not trolling.Second, I posted the following at objectivismonline.net in response to a specific thread that I had found while googling on the topic of human instinct. The thread caught my interest, I read a good deal of it, then felt compelled to jump in. My comment was not directed towards Objectivism per se. Indeed I wasn't even there to discuss Objectivism. It was just my reaction to some of the comments I read, and the general mindset I thought I detected among some of the commenters.However, after registering and posting my thoughts, I was swiftly banned and my post deleted. That got me curious; is there something about Objectivists in general that caused such a reaction? No, that couldn't be it: I don't know a lot about Objectivism, but I know that individualism is at its core. Groupthink is probably not prevalent among them.So, I decided to google "objectivist forum" and try another one, as a sort of experiment: how will a different group of Objectivists react to my rather benign and indirect comment?Let's find out:When science counters your ideology, if your response is to look for ways to interpret science to make it fit your ideology, rather than the other way around, then your ideology is a religion. You've chosen ideology as your rock. It's like a post driven into the ground, and you've got one ankle chained to it. When science bumps into you, you turn to face it, standing between it and your ideology with fists raised.What you should do is chain yourself to science, and reach out to grab whatever ideology suits your biases from among those that pass near enough for you to reach. This way, if science later happens to undermine your ideology, you can release it and grab another one. You should wear your ideology like a loose garment. Don't get bogged down in details, but rather, stay in tune with your general biases, and you'll be able to freely hop from one ideology to another, as long as they're more or less in your corner.If your ideology has a guru-figure, there's an increased likelihood that you'll be forced to defend it against science at some point. When this happens, you run the serious risk of relegating yourself to the kook-fringe. Now, there's nothing wrong with being fringe, but the kook-fringe is reserved for those who do things like deny science.If you want to keep it simple: make science your ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here we go again...Tyler Wat,Do you have a web presence somewhere other than here?Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here we go again...Tyler Wat,Do you have a web presence somewhere other than here?MichaelSure, why?It's the name, isn't it? I know, haha, funny, right? No, not so much, actually. Not after the gazillionth time. :frantics: Anyway, I'm not some troll returned to torment you, if that's what "here we go again" means. My post is genuine; I'm just looking for an Objectivist response to my thoughts on ideology vs science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here we go again...Tyler Wat,Do you have a web presence somewhere other than here?Regardless, it's pure twaddle. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 It has to be VP. Who'd care to imitate him?--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Garbage Pile time. Has to be a record for that.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 He's not even trying to conceal his ID.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Forgive me, but this is simply bizarre.I'm not concealing anything. I told you how and why I found my way here. What's with all the suspicion? Do you get a lot of trolls?Why not just step back a moment, read my post again, and see that it's utterly non-threatening.Then, if you still don't care to begin a friendly discussion, why not just ignore it and leave it for someone else who might? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You're Victor Pross.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You should wear your ideology like a loose garment.Even science has to be worn as a loose garment , just not as loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 You're Victor Pross.--BrantNo, I am not.Who is Victor Pross, and why do you think I am him?More importantly, how is your bizarre behavior related to my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 You should wear your ideology like a loose garment.Even science has to be worn as a loose garment , just not as loose. I agree.Though, the scientific method is the best one we have for examining the universe, so it is reasonable to not allow ideaology to lure us too far from that path, lest we get lost in the wilderness of confusion.Science is ever-changing. That is its strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Sayeth, Victor Pross.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfly Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You're Victor Pross.--BrantNo, I am not.Who is Victor Pross, and why do you think I am him?More importantly, how is your bizarre behavior related to my post?If you're not Victor Pross, I suggest you send Michael some proof of you real identity to dispel that notion, as we've had some bad experiences with VP in the past which may explain some of the reactions you've had on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't care if he's Henry VIII, I'll talk to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 You're Victor Pross.--BrantNo, I am not.Who is Victor Pross, and why do you think I am him?More importantly, how is your bizarre behavior related to my post?If you're not Victor Pross, I suggest you send Michael some proof of you real identity to dispel that notion, as we've had some bad experiences with VP in the past which may explain some of the reactions you've had on this forum.Surely you're joking. You want me to, what, scan my driver's license and send it to a stranger over the Internet?Rather than me disproving God, why doesn't my friend here submit his evidence?Seriously, what is it that makes me appear to be this person (and who is he, and what did he do to elicit such paranoia)? I'm intrigued, quite frankly. But not enough to attempt to prove a negative.Next thing you know I'll be asked to prove I didn't shoot J.R.(That does it, I'm googling "Victor Pross." See, now you've got me doing it. This coffee-clutch intrigue is contagious. Either that or I'm insanely bored....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't care if he's Henry VIII, I'll talk to him. Ha! The one marriage he didn't consummate was the one to his most attractive wife!No, I'm not Henry VIII. :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here we go again...Tyler Wat,Do you have a web presence somewhere other than here?MichaelSure, why?Tyler Wat,Please help me out. Provide some links to your online presence.Thanks.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Forgive me, but this is simply bizarre.I'm not concealing anything. I told you how and why I found my way here. What's with all the suspicion? Do you get a lot of trolls?Why not just step back a moment, read my post again, and see that it's utterly non-threatening.Then, if you still don't care to begin a friendly discussion, why not just ignore it and leave it for someone else who might?I have been assured by a third party that you are too literate to be Victor Pross and that I've become paranoid about him. I have to agree. If you are who you say you are, I apologize for what I've said. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Forgive me, but this is simply bizarre.I'm not concealing anything. I told you how and why I found my way here. What's with all the suspicion? Do you get a lot of trolls?Why not just step back a moment, read my post again, and see that it's utterly non-threatening.Then, if you still don't care to begin a friendly discussion, why not just ignore it and leave it for someone else who might?I have been assured by a third party that you are too literate to be Victor Pross and that I've become paranoid about him. I have to agree. If you are who you say you are, I apologize for what I've said. --BrantWho cares who he is. Just explain to me tho, who starts out a thread with the words "I am not a troll"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Ted,Following your lead, I simply can't resist. Some opportunities are bigger than me...First, let me assure you that I am not trolling.The Troll GardenLet's take a stroll down the Troll Garden to get warmed up.I am not posting these images in any particular order and their numbered titles are linked to the original sources. I, for one can think of tons of quips for them. Some of these are dead ringers for my mental images of some posters in O-Land. A Drooling Beast's delight... Enjoy the troll stroll...MichaelTroll Garden No. 1 Troll Garden No. 2 Troll Garden No. 3 Troll Garden No. 4 Troll Garden No. 5 Troll Garden No. 6 Troll Garden No. 7 Troll Garden No. 8 Troll Garden No. 9 Troll Garden No. 10 Troll Garden No. 11 Troll Garden No. 12 Troll Garden No. 13 Troll Garden No. 14 Troll Garden No. 15 Troll Garden No. 16 Troll Garden No. 17 Troll Garden No. 18 Troll Garden No. 19 Troll Garden No. 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Forgive me, but this is simply bizarre.I'm not concealing anything. I told you how and why I found my way here. What's with all the suspicion? Do you get a lot of trolls?Why not just step back a moment, read my post again, and see that it's utterly non-threatening.Then, if you still don't care to begin a friendly discussion, why not just ignore it and leave it for someone else who might?I have been assured by a third party that you are too literate to be Victor Pross and that I've become paranoid about him. I have to agree. If you are who you say you are, I apologize for what I've said. --BrantWho cares who he is. Just explain to me tho, who starts out a thread with the words "I am not a troll"?This is so funny!--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Brant:Precisely. Any interrogator internal eyes would light up by that opening statement!In the Sandler selling system which works on pattern interruption and negative reverses, there is a phrase - "never spill your candy in the lobby" which is the way I saw that post opening.Or, another angle, the lady doth protest too much!Glad I was not alone in that first read perception.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReligiousIdeology Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) I announced myself as a non-troll because your fellow Objectivists gave me reason to believe that I might be perceived as one. Since we're posting pictures (happily, my ban there was temporary):Note how, like here, the burden of proof was placed on me to prove that I wasn't trolling, which is impossible because they can simply move the goalposts. What they, like you, should have done is point out why my post qualified as trolling -- which neither they nor you can do, because it doesn't. Note also how the excuse for deletion is that my post was "unclear," which strains credulity when you see that it is written in plain and simple English.Anyway, that's all there is to it, folks. It wasn't a guilty conscience that compelled me to write that line, it was my conditioning by other Objectivists. So you can dispense with the amateur psychology and "gotcha" high-fives.I never expected this degree of insularity, however. By Zeus, you people are paranoid. The most striking aspect of all this, to me, is that my post has yet to be discussed (with the exception of General Semanticist, who offered at least some partial feedback and seems to have an open attitude). Instead, a flurry of suspicion immediately commenced, almost as though it were intended as a smokescreen to avoid the topic of discussion.Here we go again...Tyler Wat,Do you have a web presence somewhere other than here?MichaelSure, why?Tyler Wat,Please help me out. Provide some links to your online presence.Thanks.MichaelI thought you were asking if I frequent other forums, which I do. But no, I don't have my own web site. Why does that matter? I'm genuinely curious why you feel the need to investigate my identity and online activities. I've never experienced this at any other forum.I'd rather not provide links to the other forums I frequent, because, quite frankly, I'm a bit rattled by my reception here. I have family photos online and I don't want them in the hands of people who have irrationally accused me of being a criminal without the slightest reason. I guess paranoia is contagious.Forgive me, but this is simply bizarre.I'm not concealing anything. I told you how and why I found my way here. What's with all the suspicion? Do you get a lot of trolls?Why not just step back a moment, read my post again, and see that it's utterly non-threatening.Then, if you still don't care to begin a friendly discussion, why not just ignore it and leave it for someone else who might?I have been assured by a third party that you are too literate to be Victor Pross and that I've become paranoid about him. I have to agree. If you are who you say you are, I apologize for what I've said. --BrantI'm glad to know that at least someone among you is capable of analytical thought. Edited January 22, 2009 by ReligiousIdeology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 We've had serious problems with at least one unwanted poster and when you came on board and stated you weren't a troll you inadvertently pushed all the wrong buttons.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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