Kampf and Jihad

[James Heaps-Nelson]

James,

Here is another site I found very informative on the Nazi-Islamist connection:

Tell The Children The Truth

Michael

I'll accept Nazi links to the Muslim Brotherhood, Baathist parties in Syria and Iraq, but I'm skeptical about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistani radicals, The Taliban etc. The Syrian and Iraqi governments were never dominantly Islamic though. Saddam Hussein tapped into that later for his own purposes, but as part of a secular government, he was able to clamp down on the Shia majority. The ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam were tenuous. Saddam filled his government with the most loyal non-Shia he could find. Tariq Aziz was even a Christian.

The Egyptian Islamic Jihad/Al Qaeda connection was through Zawahiri. So there are roundabout connections and they all hated the Jews, but I don't buy the grand all-encompassing Islamist-Nazi conspiracy in those websites.

Jim

Edited January 14, 2009 by James Heaps-Nelson

[James Heaps-Nelson]

James,

Here is another site I found very informative on the Nazi-Islamist connection:

Tell The Children The Truth

Michael

It is an eye opener. I'm going to have to take a lot of time on this. Thanks for the links and leads.

Jim

[James Heaps-Nelson]

James,

Here is another site I found very informative on the Nazi-Islamist connection:

Tell The Children The Truth

Michael

It is an eye opener. I'm going to have to take a lot of time on this. Thanks for the links and leads.

Jim

This is going to take several weeks of follow up work that I don't have right now but will get to eventually. The scale of Nazis that were sheltered in Egypt under Nasser is mindboggling. I also did not know the connection of the Nazis to Saddam's uncle. I knew Nazis were sheltered in Syria and several South American countries. I did not know about their safe haven in Egypt.

Jim

[Barbara Branden]

Michael: "Barbara, At any rate, I held, and still hold, that force should be used against force, and ideas against ideas. Force should only be used against the acts of people, not against the philosophical or religious ideas they hold in their heads."

Michael, please remember that i am one of the the people from whom you learned this.

You wrote:

"I am confused with this logic when discussing Germans.

"Did all the Germans who allowed Hitler to rise die off and a whole new generation take their place after WWII? Since, according to this thinking, they were to blame for Hitler, and since these average Germans basically survived WWII, what stopped a Hitler from arising again and being embraced by them after the USA left?

"I believe there is more at work than simply saying they were evil, then they stopped."

Good god, Michael, Hitler was elected. Of course it was the German people who allowed him to rise. But that is not to say that they all were evil. Some wre ignorant, some were stupid, some were self-blinded, some were apathetic, some were terrorized into silence, some were brain-washed, and a great many of them were evil.

What stopped a Hitler from rising again? We did -- by keeping our troops in Germany after the war, by ruthlessly crushing the continuing Nazi attempts at sabotage and aggression, by rubbing the noses of the Germans in the horrors they had perpetrated, and by not allowing Germany to rearm.

Barbara

[Barbara Branden]

Religions, like people, often change over the years, But if we blame Christianity-as-it-was-then for the Crusades, shall we not also blame Islam-as-it-is today for Jihad?

And just as not all Muslims accept the legitimacy of Jihad, I'm certain that not all Christians applauded the Crusades. That does not change the fact that in Christianity as it was then preached and understood there was a poison that made mass murder possible, so there is in Islam as it is now preached and understood the equivalent poison.

Barbara

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Barbara,

From what I have read, all Muslims accept the legitimacy of jihad, which means struggle. Not all accept the legitimacy of violent jihad against non-Muslims, or the holy war version. Nor do all accept it as an official pillar of Islam. I have read that the Sufis, and even many other Muslims, consider jihad to be mainly an inner struggle with faith.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Michael,

One other question about the Nazi/Islamist connection: I know a bunch of Nazis were sheltered in South American countries like Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Chile after the war. Some years back there was a huge bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires attributed to Imad Mugniyeh of Hezbollah. It didn't make sense to me at the time, because why would a top level Middle Eastern terrorist go all the way to BA for a bombing even if he was able to kill dozens of people, mostly Israelis. On the surface it looks like just another senseless act of terror, but I think there was more to it than that. What did it accomplish?

Do you think Mugniyeh was protecting Nazis from Israeli Nazi hunters in South America?

Jim

Edit- I now think the explanation is much more pedestrian but no less frightening. Hezbollah has established a permanent base in the tricountry region of South America from which it is easy for them to launch devastating attacks on Israeli and possibly in the future, American, targets.

Edited January 14, 2009 by James Heaps-Nelson

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Good god, Michael, Hitler was elected. Of course it was the German people who allowed him to rise. But that is not to say that they all were evil. Some wre ignorant, some were stupid, some were self-blinded, some were apathetic, some were terrorized into silence, some were brain-washed, and a great many of them were evil.

What stopped a Hitler from rising again? We did -- by keeping our troops in Germany after the war, by ruthlessly crushing the continuing Nazi attempts at sabotage and aggression, by rubbing the noses of the Germans in the horrors they had perpetrated, and by not allowing Germany to rearm.

Barbara,

I think you missed my point, and I admit I could have been clearer. I never denied that the German people supported Hitler and elected him (by much less than 50%—thirty-something percent if I remember correctly).

My point is what is stopping those same Germans from committing the same error, at least on a smaller level? What turned West Germany into a capitalist nation supported by those same Germans? Did we re-engineer their souls? How?

You mentioned coercion and crushing. Did this force turn the same German people who elected Hitler into capitalists?

That's an implicit premise (or at least one that gets transmitted often) I want to check.

I believe intellectual efforts were made in addition to the force used. I don't see how it could have been otherwise. People do not become capitalists because they are forced to.

This same reasoning applies to the Islamist situation. Without an intellectual effort to run alongside the military one, I am afraid Israel will never find peace. Oversimplifying Islam is not very intellectual.

We are the intellectuals, so we, more than anyone, need to be vigilant on this point and strive for competence in persuasion. And I mean persuading Muslims, not just ourselves.

That is my point.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

I am just learning more about this and it is frightening. Islamist terrorist groups have established a presence in South America in the tri-country region of Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay. I speculated on Mugniyeh's Buenos Aires attack, but more probably he had simply taken up residence in South America for a while and it was easier for him to hit local Israeli targets. Here is a link about tri-country terrorist activites in South America:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17874369/#storyContinued

Jim

Edited January 14, 2009 by James Heaps-Nelson

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

James,

Enjoy the ride.

Once you see it, you will never judge this issue in the same manner again. The real galling part is that the Allies did not finish the job with the Nazis. Instead, after WWII, we employed the Islamic Nazis to spy on the Communists and allowed them to develop strong clandestine networks and even political parties with our money. Then we filled their coffers with a wealth they never imagined existed with oil money.

To compound the issue, after WWII, the Jews wanted to move in next door to these thugs because of religious reasons. Would you take up residence next door to a group of serial killers who had killed off many of your family? But that's what they did.

The USA was founded in part on America being the "promised land." I am grateful it happened this way since the USA became the greatest country on earth. I can only speculate, but I think if Israel had chosen anywhere else on earth to establish a country after WWII except right beside bloody Islamist Nazis, it would be a major world power by now competing with the USA for top spot. Sure, the thugs would be growling and cutting up, but nothing like what exists today.

That to me is one real damning indictment of the folly of holding on to religious traditions against reality.

Now it's too late and a rotten situation exists that will rob many many productive people of the good life, and hold a wonderful nation (Israel) back for many many more years to come.

In the war against Islamism, I believe that the Nazi part needs to be targeted much more than at present. On a sliding scale, Nazism+Islamism is the worst evil of the present hostilities. Plain old Islamism (or fundamentalist Islam) comes in second place as a strong threat to Western nations. Pulling the teeth from those two, in that order, will make the world a far safer place to live in.

After that, I believe modern life and the Information Age will keep moderate Muslims from becoming violent.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

James,

Enjoy the ride.

Once you see it, you will never judge this issue in the same manner again. The real galling part is that the Allies did not finish the job with the Nazis. Instead, after WWII, we employed the Islamic Nazis to spy on the Communists and allowed them to develop strong clandestine networks and even political parties with our money. Then we filled their coffers with a wealth they never imagined existed with oil money.

To compound the issue, after WWII, the Jews wanted to move in next door to these thugs because of religious reasons. Would you take up residence next door to a group of serial killers who had killed off many of your family? But that's what they did.

The USA was founded in part on America being the "promised land." I am grateful it happened this way since the USA became the greatest country on earth. I can only speculate, but I think if Israel had chosen anywhere else on earth to establish a country after WWII except right beside bloody Islamist Nazis, it would be a major world power by now competing with the USA for top spot. Sure, the thugs would be growling and cutting up, but nothing like what exists today.

That to me is one real damning indictment of the folly of holding on to religious traditions against reality.

Now a rotten situation exists that will rob many many productive people of the good life, and hold a wonderful nation (Israel) back for many many more years to come.

In the war against Islamism, I believe that the Nazi part needs to be targeted much more than at present. On a sliding scale, Nazism+Islamism is the worst evil of the present hostilities. Plain old Islamism (or fundamentalist Islam) comes in second place as a strong threat to Western nations. Pulling the teeth from those two, in that order, will make the world a far safer place to live in.

Michael

I have to agree with you Michael even only knowing part of the story, but part of the problem was that no country wanted a massive influx of Jews after the war. The Jews thought they were getting what they always wanted and Britain and the Allies were unloading a huge headache in a temporary solution that ended up being a permanent nightmare.

Jim

Edited January 14, 2009 by James Heaps-Nelson

[Barbara Branden]

Michael: "...after WWII, the Jews wanted to move in next door to these thugs because of religious reasons."

It was only partly for religious reasons. They had learned the hard way that no country would accept them. Surely you know the story of the 900 Jews who escaped from Europe, only to be refused admission and turned back to their deaths by Roosevelt. Six million would not have died -- one million would not have died -- had a single country opened its doors to Europe's Jews. None did.

Barbara

[BaalChatzaf]

Michael: "...after WWII, the Jews wanted to move in next door to these thugs because of religious reasons."

It was only partly for religious reasons. They had learned the hard way that no country would accept them. Surely you know the story of the 900 Jews who escaped from Europe, only to be refused admission and turned back to their deaths by Roosevelt. Six million would not have died -- one million would not have died -- had a single country opened its doors to Europe's Jews. None did.

Barbara

At the end of the 19th century Theodor Herzl, a not excessively observant Jew, saw the playing out of the Dreyfus Affair in France and he saw that Jews in Europe did not have a bright future. Either they would suffer the pogroms or they would be forced to convert or they would be expelled. He started a movement to establish a Jewish State where Jews could dwell in safety. It was the Zionist Movement and Herzl visualized a burgoise Judenstadt where Jews could live a normal life. The result of the Zionist program was to purchase large tracts of land in Palestine from the then legal government, that of Ottoman Turkey. The Turks were only too happy to sell blighted worthless land to these crazy Jews. After all their money was good.

Bottom line. Jews legally purchased a homeland for themselves. At the time the Jewish Agency was established the population of Palestine was very low. Jewish agronomists with the backing of Jewish capitalists (particularly the Rothschilds) made the land productive again. The city of Tel Aviv, a large modern city was built on drained swamp land. It was built largely by Jewish capital and labor. In addition the Jewish agency received contribution from Jews all over the world. I remember collecting contributions in my blue and white can. This was before the State of Israel was declared in 1948. We used to call the place Palestine in those days.

So the Jews of the Zionist persuasion did not invade Palestine nor did they drive anyone out. They bought land no one wanted (but them). In fact, the increase in productivity created employment opportunities for non-Jewish Palestinians. The Jews did not invade. They settled the land and created prosperity not only for themselves, but others as well.

This cock-and-bull story about the Jewish Invasion is one that is told by anti-semites. After the second world war, the few surviving Jews wanted to live on land already purchased by the Jewish Agency. The Brits, guided by realpolitik tried to prevent imigration of the few surviving Jews to Palestine. They did not succeed. The survivors intended to live and work on land legally purchased by the Jewish Agency. They did not come to invade.

Had the radical Palestinians not made war on the Jews, the Jewish population would have accepted Partition peacefully. Such was not to be. The Palestinian population, now increased largely by Jewish improvement and investment in the land was absolutely against any independent Jewish presence. They were not only ungrateful, they were stupid. Every time they made war against the Jews they lost. Have they learned anything? Apparently not. They want it all, and as a result they will eventually have nothing.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Michael,

I've always wondered about our relationship with Syria. We officially put them on lists of countries that sponsor terror, but more than occasionally you hear about the CIA conducting a rendition to Syria. It almost looks like a neutral cooptition (cooperation and competition) where the CIA maintains cooperative backchannel contacts with the Syrians but occasionally will approve an anti-Syrian operation with the Israelis like the one that destroyed that nuclear reactor if the Syrians get too frisky. A few high-profile Nazis such as Alois Bruner have showed up in Damascus.

I will check the history, but you're hinting that the Allies supported the formation of the fascist Nazi-linked Baathist parties in Syria and Iraq to spy on the Soviets and their satellites and maintain ground in the Middle East at the heart of the Cold War. My guess is that the US knew and approved of or at least turned a blind eye toward the huge Nazi presence in Egypt under Nasser and it was complicated for Israel to get help from the US because of this.

Also my guess is that the OSS\CIA recruited legions of full-blown Nazis as intelligence assets in the Cold War and probably supported their embeds in Egypt, Syria and many South American countries. It also probably allowed the US to much more effectively conduct Crystal Tower diplomacy in South America and even sponsor coups like that of Salvador Allende by Augosto Pinochet. Given that the Nazis already had links to some of the fascist countries, it probably gave the US and other allies footprint in the game in countries where they had chilly relations before in WW2. My guess is that the OSS\CIA recruited heavily among those Nazis who were most active in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yugoslavia and the Ukraine as well as Eastern Europe and outwardly aggressively prosecuted the Nazi high command at Nuremberg. It also explains a bunch of the creepy South American contacts Kissinger had during the early/mid-1970's.

No wonder the Israelis had to have their own Nazi hunters. Was Eichmann sheltered because of his middle Eastern contacts during the war?

I also wondered why the US didn't more aggressively prosecute Japanese war criminals. Emperor Hirohito was spared, but a whole cadre of the Japanese High Command like Hideki Tojo and others had summary military tribunals under MacArthur and were hanged. I didn't understand this until I saw a show about the early US bioweapons programs. For some reason, Hitler had some weird qualms about bioweapons and the Germans had no active program in this area. However, the Japanese had a very advanced bioweapons program and had conducted massive airborne eradications of Chinese populations in Manchuria. The US made deals with many of the Japanese scientists including those who had conducted in vivo medical experiments on prisoners while they were alive. Ishii was the most notorious of these Japanese scientists. The scientists got immunity from prosecution in exchange for their cooperation.The data obtained from the Japanese scientists was mostly worthless according to the documentary I saw and the US suspended its bioweapons program, at least in the open, by treaty under Nixon.

Jim

Edited January 14, 2009 by James Heaps-Nelson

[ginny]

This is in reply to Barbara's post No. 79, about how Hitler got elected. Real easy, folks. I can still hear Mother and other german woman discussing how important he was in producing jobs and food (something sorely lacking at the time). He was/is a hero for doing that. Even after all of his deeds/actions were known, the food/job part apparently justified everything else. (Not making this up.). Hmmmm - food, jobs - something we're lacking more and more. Something to keep in mind.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael: "...after WWII, the Jews wanted to move in next door to these thugs because of religious reasons."

It was only partly for religious reasons. They had learned the hard way that no country would accept them. Surely you know the story of the 900 Jews who escaped from Europe, only to be refused admission and turned back to their deaths by Roosevelt. Six million would not have died -- one million would not have died -- had a single country opened its doors to Europe's Jews. None did.

Barbara,

The time frame I mentioned was after WWII, not before. After WWII, the victors had a great deal to say about how to divvy up the world. In my opinion, this was an opportunity dismissed by Jews for religious reasons. They wanted Biblical land.

But I agree that the many cases of the world's doors being shut to Jews trying to escape Nazi Germany before WWII is a black stain on mankind.

Had the radical Palestinians not made war on the Jews, the Jewish population would have accepted Partition peacefully. Such was not to be. The Palestinian population, now increased largely by Jewish improvement and investment in the land was absolutely against any independent Jewish presence.

Bob,

That kinda happens when you move next door to serial killers. What's more, they don't care how you got there, legitimately or illegitimately. They have other priorities.

(Note: I specifically refer to the Nazi-fundamentalist element with the serial killer remark. Obviously, this does not apply to all Palestinians.)

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

James,

Isn't it something how the cards start falling into place and events start making sense once the Nazi-Islamist connection is taken into account?

The only reason I can come up with for the near-total blank-out in the mainstream media over this is that Western governments like the USA and England employed and funded these Nazis. Now they are causing much of the trouble we see today. That's embarrassing.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This is in reply to Barbara's post No. 79, about how Hitler got elected. Real easy, folks. I can still hear Mother and other german woman discussing how important he was in producing jobs and food (something sorely lacking at the time). He was/is a hero for doing that. Even after all of his deeds/actions were known, the food/job part apparently justified everything else. (Not making this up.). Hmmmm - food, jobs - something we're lacking more and more. Something to keep in mind.

Ginny,

This thought has crossed my mind more than once. Without the economic crisis, I don't believe Hitler would have been elected. My antenna is wiggling all over the place with respect to the upcoming economic chaos.

Michael

[ginny]

Absolutely. Hungry desperate people will buy into any promise. Twelve million dead v. my stomach. My stomach wins. Let the rest fend for themselves.

[Selene]

This is in reply to Barbara's post No. 79, about how Hitler got elected. Real easy, folks. I can still hear Mother and other german woman discussing how important he was in producing jobs and food (something sorely lacking at the time). He was/is a hero for doing that. Even after all of his deeds/actions were known, the food/job part apparently justified everything else. (Not making this up.). Hmmmm - food, jobs - something we're lacking more and more. Something to keep in mind.

Yes Ginny is correct. My uncle was a young man during the explosive inflation of Veimar and the savage unemployment and people would follow anyone who could put food regularly on the people's table and employ the populace.

In this country, you had a number of populist leaders who were springing up - Huey Long from Louisiana, Father Coughlin, the America First Committees and of course your ever present communists and the American Bund which basically ran Suffolk County [which made the FBI's most corrupt county in America for years, but that is because there was a spike in Federal Prosecutions which skewer the statistics] in New York State.

Now Huey was a serious threat to FDR and he would up as a very dead Governor on the Steps of the State Capital, but had not the Roosevelt forces removed him as a threat, would he have been this country's Hitler?

Would Americans have done what the Germans did?

Adam

[ginny]

Some would, Adam. But America has a rebellious spirit that is unknown in Germany. There is a defiance (hard to see at the moment, I admit) of authority that'll ultimately save us, I think. I hope. In Europe, being a "good" German or "good" Spaniard, etc. is all-important. Here, being a "good" American - not so much, really.

[tjohnson]

This is in reply to Barbara's post No. 79, about how Hitler got elected. Real easy, folks. I can still hear Mother and other german woman discussing how important he was in producing jobs and food (something sorely lacking at the time). He was/is a hero for doing that. Even after all of his deeds/actions were known, the food/job part apparently justified everything else. (Not making this up.). Hmmmm - food, jobs - something we're lacking more and more. Something to keep in mind.

Right, and didn't the economic state of Post WW1 Germany have alot to do with the way it was treated by the Allies? So who is to blame for this, the poor German people or the vengeful Allies?

Life for the German people became very difficult after the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was forced to borrow vast sums of money from America in order to pay its war debt to England and France. In 1929, the United States experienced an economic depression. A depression is a time when business is bad and many people are out of work. America was unable to continue lending money to Germany during the depression. Without the income from American loans, Germany was unable to pay its war reparations to England and France. The result was a severe depression in Germany. German money became close to worthless. They German people were angry with the Treaty of Versailles; they felt the terms were unfair. Many Germans believed a strong leader could return their nation to greatness.

See http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...26124102AAAOD88

[ginny]

General S, I don't know what you mean by the Allies' treatment of Germany. The Allies beat Germany. What else am I overlooking. I do know that between WWI and WWII there were so many transitional governments; no one knew what was going on; the Deutsch Mark became worthless; there was too much in-fighting to handle the economy.

[James Heaps-Nelson]

James,

Isn't it something how the cards start falling into place and events start making sense once the Nazi-Islamist connection is taken into account?

The only reason I can come up with for the near-total blank-out in the mainstream media over this is that Western governments like the USA and England employed and funded these Nazis. Now they are causing much of the trouble we see today. That's embarrassing.

Michael

I've also often wondered why Truman didn't simply nuke the Russians before they acquired the bomb in the late 1940's to keep the Cold War from happening. My guess is that he knew that the Nazis were underground and that they would be very difficult to deal with if the Russians were taken out. Truman had record low Presidential approval ratings when he left office in 1952, probably because of the success of Soviet expansionism.

My guess about why the Allies didn't fully deal with the Nazis was that the Soviets were already on the march and the US and Britain had to figure out a way to stop them from executing a huge land grab in Asia, protect US and Western oil interests in the Middle East and counteract Soviet expansion in Europe as well as executing the Marshall Plan for rebuilding in Western Europe.

Interestingly, it has been speculated that Soviet infiltration tactics in the 1970's under Brezhnev were aimed mainly at the Middle East and Southern Africa. The goal was to cut off our oil supply and ground our jets due to lack of access to cobalt. Cobalt was required to withstand the high temperatures generated in turbo engines for jets. This is part of the origin of the US straegic petroleum reserve and at one time we also had a cobalt reserve to last 10-15 years.

Jim

Edited January 14, 2009 by James Heaps-Nelson

[tjohnson]

General S, I don't know what you mean by the Allies' treatment of Germany. The Allies beat Germany. What else am I overlooking. I do know that between WWI and WWII there were so many transitional governments; no one knew what was going on; the Deutsch Mark became worthless; there was too much in-fighting to handle the economy.

What I mean is that they helped create the conditions for Hitler to get power in their attempt to punish Germany.