Kampf and Jihad


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James,

So, do you tell your moderate Muslim colleagues that you do not tolerate their religion in the same manner you preach here, and that they harbor terrorists among them?

:)

Michael

No, but in the past I have asked them why many moderate adherents of Islam are willing to put up with and condone terrorist activity. The answers differ. Sometimes you can lose friends over that but not often. Just like they ask me why U. S. governments are so oblivious sometimes...

In life do you generally pack around loaded assumptions about people without asking like you are doing here?

:)

Jim

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If you want to redefine sharia and jihad to mean something other than religious dictatorship based on the Qur'an and religious war, feel free.

Ted,

You seem to employ this same process in defining Christianity.

But no, I don't "define" sharia and jihad one way or another. That is for Muslims to do. (Just like Christians.) I do define individual rights and so long as a foreign people want to live in my country, I demand they observe these rights. The rest is the rest.

Michael

I am tempted to let this drop. Yes, the mohammedans do need to have a reformation. But what is this about my "defining" Christianity? I think turn the other cheek, live by the sword, die by the sword, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's speak for themselves. I do tend to forget Jesus calling from the cross for his supporters to rise up and slay the infidel. Mohammed did it and he preached it and no mohammedan sect of any notability apologizes for it. I'll let you have the last word.

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There is a difference in kind even here though. The passages you've quoted from the Bible are not included as one of the pillars of the faith.

James,

Not today.

You need to read history if you don't believe these things were not organizing principles and justifications of prior brutality, i.e., "pillars of faith."

Michael

Here is where I will give some ground. I have not read a full survey of Western History and my knowledge has some lacunae. Even given this, am I not right to presume a moderate Muslim is more of a danger today than a moderate Christian, Hindu or Buddhist. And yes, there are cases like Yugoslavia where the reverse is true.

Jim

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James,

So, do you tell your moderate Muslim colleagues that you do not tolerate their religion in the same manner you preach here, and that they harbor terrorists among them?

:)

Michael

As a turnabout to this, many moderate Muslims do make their intolerance of other religions explicit, support dhimmification and other subjugation of nonbelievers. None of these are terrorist practices, but I don't find them acceptable and they make me very uncomfortable.

Jim

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As a turnabout to this, many moderate Muslims do make their intolerance of other religions explicit, support dhimmification and other subjugation of nonbelievers. None of these are terrorist practices, but I don't find them acceptable and they make me very uncomfortable.

Jim

The so-called "moderate" Muslims are the sea in which the Jihadi sharks swim.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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As a turnabout to this, many moderate Muslims do make their intolerance of other religions explicit, support dhimmification and other subjugation of nonbelievers. None of these are terrorist practices, but I don't find them acceptable and they make me very uncomfortable.

James,

This is similar to what the Nazis used to tell your average German about the Jews.

I have a very difficult time trying to lay this kind of thinking on an entire race of people. All it sounds like to me is a rationalization for bigotry, which I judge is often based on fear when I encounter it.

Michael

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Ginny,

Your account of your upbringing sounds a lot like mine, except I come from racist hillbillies, not anti-Semitic Germans.

I have definitely become the black sheep of my family.

If there ever were a "chosen people," I would say it is made up of people who, as children (like you said you were), refused to learn bigoted hatred from their families.

Michael

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As a turnabout to this, many moderate Muslims do make their intolerance of other religions explicit, support dhimmification and other subjugation of nonbelievers. None of these are terrorist practices, but I don't find them acceptable and they make me very uncomfortable.

James,

This is similar to what the Nazis used to tell your average German about the Jews.

I have a very difficult time trying to lay this kind of thinking on an entire race of people. All it sounds like to me is a rationalization for bigotry, which I judge is often based on fear when I encounter it.

Michael

Race of people?

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As a turnabout to this, many moderate Muslims do make their intolerance of other religions explicit, support dhimmification and other subjugation of nonbelievers. None of these are terrorist practices, but I don't find them acceptable and they make me very uncomfortable.

James,

This is similar to what the Nazis used to tell your average German about the Jews.

I have a very difficult time trying to lay this kind of thinking on an entire race of people. All it sounds like to me is a rationalization for bigotry, which I judge is often based on fear when I encounter it.

Michael

Except that you could probably count on one hand, if that, the number of Jews in pre-war Germany that went around blowing up Germans.

Jim

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Ted,

My point is that you allow for a difference between fundamentalist Christianity and watered-down Christianity. You do not allow that this can exist with Islam. Yet even without pondering individual rights and with no input at all from modern Western thinking, the Sufis developed.

How can one defeat an enemy if one refuses to target him properly? Broad generalizations is a very poor method of targeting. On the other hand, Israel kicking Hamas's ass 7 ways to Sunday is very good targeting.

Michael

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Race of people?

Ted,

That is a very good question, but not from the angle you meant.

What is the difference between tribalism based on region, tribalism based on race, tribalism based on doctrine, etc? It's all the came crap.

So do answer your question, I meant race in the wider non-biological sense. Let's say you can ask me if I meant dog poop instead of cat poop, but all I really meant was poop in general.

Cialdini presented an excellent study in his discussion of "liking" as a weapon of influence. I don't have time to find it and type it up right now, but here is what happened. Some experiments were set up where groups of young people were separated at summer camps into rival groups that did not communicate with each other except for some sports events. The rivalry bordered on violent towards the end and hatred started developing between them.

They also made groups of young people who were strongly separated, but gave them joint tasks to complete and made them work together at specific times on those joint tasks. The nastiness that developed in the first group did not develop in the second.

Apparently there are many experiments along these lines. This is something to ponder when looking for solutions.

Encouraging blanket hatred and rivalry not only provides fertile ground for violence, it also blurs cognitive vision for efficiently targeting those who really do need to be dealt with by force.

Michael

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This exchange has been quite revealing.

Is not there a moral question raised by one specific Islamofascist Jihadist's tactic - the indiscriminate use of suicide bombs that specifically target other Muslim entities, e.g., the 14 young school girls torn to a bloody pulp by a car bomb?

I am not sure of other Western Christian uses of this tactic. I know that the Nazi's and the Commies would execute or kill their own, but it was spotty and in the sequence of a political strategy.

I am not aware of systematic and prolonged use of terrorism specifically on similar populations - Catholic on Catholic, Jew on Jew etc.

Am I being clear?

Adam

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James,

I am not defending Nazis. I am arguing against bigotry.

Michael

I'm saying that tolerance or apathy towards terrorists is a dangerous form of bigotry that we should recognize in the moderate Muslim population. The reason why is that many moderate Muslims (and even extremist ones) hold significant power positions in foreign governments. When you start hearing members of the Pakistani intelligence service waxing rhapsodic about how 9/11 was a conspiracy that was really perpetrated by the US government and the Mumbai massacre was an Indian operation to make the Pakistanis look bad, you start to get the idea.

Another point, your sample of American moderate Muslims is a bad one for two reasons. One, many of them chose to leave their home countries for a reason. Two, many are African Americans disenchanted with mainstream American Christianity. Neither of these groups poses a significant danger.

Jim

Edit- I should have said about the groups that choose to come to the US that there is the possibility that they came here with the specific purpose of doing harm. It is often very hard to distinguish. that is why we must be certain that moderate Muslims will give up the extremists in their midst.

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Ted,

My point is that you allow for a difference between fundamentalist Christianity and watered-down Christianity. You do not allow that this can exist with Islam. Yet even without pondering individual rights and with no input at all from modern Western thinking, the Sufis developed.

How can one defeat an enemy if one refuses to target him properly? Broad generalizations is a very poor method of targeting. On the other hand, Israel kicking Hamas's ass 7 ways to Sunday is very good targeting.

Michael

The Hamas leadership was democratically elected in Gaza. What should the Israelis think of those who elected Hamas (hint, it wasn't a love note sent the Israelis' way).

Jim

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As a turnabout to this, many moderate Muslims do make their intolerance of other religions explicit, support dhimmification and other subjugation of nonbelievers. None of these are terrorist practices, but I don't find them acceptable and they make me very uncomfortable.

Jim

The so-called "moderate" Muslims are the sea in which the Jihadi sharks swim.

Ba'al Chatzaf

This is the exact right analogy. It doesn't mean that you target or hold enmity toward moderate Muslims. It means that you try everything to enable them to become liberal Muslims and don't factor moderate Muslims higher in terms of collateral damage than they factor in collateral damage to Westerners and others to the degree that they are sympathetic with extremist aims.

Jim

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James,

I have no problem with law enforcement profiling people where statistically there have proven to be a high incidence of dangerous individuals.

When I made the comment earlier that I demand all foreign immigrants observe USA laws, especially those governing individual rights, that was no empty statement. I have reported suspicious behavior that looked like it was against the law and could erupt in something dangerous to our law enforcement agencies. I mean what I say in this respect.

What I do not like is an environment of blanket statements of hatred or derogatory generalizations when there are vast numbers of individuals who do not fit.

As to allowing Hamas to even run for election, what on earth was Israel thinking? Would the USA allow the Nazi party to register candidates in elections, even in controlled territories? Israel blundered by caving into international pressure on that score.

Adam,

The degree of eating their young as seen by Islamast terrorists was not seen with other forms of bigotry to my knowledge, but it has been present. For example, in the deep south during racists days, if you were a white person who befriended blacks, you could get shot or beaten to death. Or even in Nazi Germany. It was not only Jews who inhabited the concentration camps.

As an aside, here is an odd case dealing with secret police, which is not bigotry per se, but a cousin.

In Brazil, I personally knew an author who was tortured for months in DOI-CODI. (He later became an editor of Isto É, which is like Time magazine or Newsweek.) He wrote about a person he knew who went out on a drinking binge with a sergeant and woke up a prisoner in DOI-CODI. He could not remember what he did, nor could the sergeant. But they tortured that poor dude for over a month to "tell the real truth." The sergeant, needless to say, had to keep quiet about the real reason he arrested his friend. If not, he could have ended up being tortured himself.

Michael

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James,

I have no problem with law enforcement profiling people where statistically there have proven to be a high incidence of dangerous individuals.

When I made the comment earlier that I demand all foreign immigrants observe USA laws, especially those governing individual rights, that was no empty statement. I have reported suspicious behavior that looked like it was against the law and could erupt in something dangerous to our law enforcement agencies. I mean what I say in this respect.

What I do not like is an environment of blanket statements of hatred or derogatory generalizations when there are vast numbers of individuals who do not fit.

As to allowing Hamas to even run for election, what on earth was Israel thinking? Would the USA allow the Nazi party to register candidates in elections, even in controlled territories? Israel blundered by caving into international pressure on that score.

Adam,

The degree of eating their young as seen by Islamast terrorists was not seen with other forms of bigotry to my knowledge, but it has been present. For example, in the deep south during racists days, if you were a white person who befriended blacks, you could get shot or beaten to death. Or even in Nazi Germany. It was not only Jews who inhabited the concentration camps.

As an aside, here is an odd case dealing with secret police, which is not bigotry per se, but a cousin.

In Brazil, I personally knew an author who was tortured for months in DOI-CODI. (He later became an editor of Isto É, which is like Time magazine or Newsweek.) He wrote about a person he knew who went out on a drinking binge with a sergeant and woke up a prisoner in DOI-CODI. He could not remember what he did, nor could the sergeant. But they tortured that poor dude for over a month to "tell the real truth." The sergeant, needless to say, had to keep quiet about the real reason he arrested his friend. If not, he could have ended up being tortured himself.

Michael

Michael,

I can see where you might have drawn the inference you did, but I did say to not tolerate Islam as a religion, not anything about moderate Muslims. There is everything to be gained by being educated about Islam. There is nothing to be gained by rapprochement with or relativism about it or softening its comparison to other religions.

Jim

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Michael,

Aside from the terror aspects of it, what are we to make of some of the trappings of Islam culturally: sharia law, polygamy, underaged marriage, full burqas, extreme physical modesty and so on? Do we just give it all a pass? I think there is much merit in drawing correlations over the % of unfree and totalitarian states in Islamic countries and the rates of assimilation of immigrants in Western nations relative to other immigrant populations. What does it say to women in Islamic countries when we don't speak up for their rights? What does it say to scholars when we say that fatwas and death threats for blasphemy have nothing to do with religion. It's papering over the obvious. For a "warts and all" guy, you seem to give this topic an exception, why?

Jim

Edit- I am talking here about the contemporary aggregate of current Islamic civilization. Historically we owe many mathematical developments and preservation of culture to Islamic civilization when Christianity was the scourge.

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Another trend I've found surprising: Of all of the people I've known from Arab countries, I've only heard one speak critically of policies of their home governments, but without fail these governments are some of the most craven, backward, awful, rights-abusing governments in existence. Why is that? My friend from Libya was quite outspoken about it, but that's it. I have found several Iranian immigrants critical of their government, but what a surprise.

My friend from Kuwait made no mention of the Al-Sabah family which has survived for centuries by dirty dealing and craven appeasement of its neigb

ors and that's one of the mildest cases I know.

Jim

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Aside from the terror aspects of it, what are we to make of some of the trappings of Islam culturally: sharia law, polygamy, underaged marriage, full burqas, extreme physical modesty and so on? Do we just give it all a pass?

James,

That's such a mix, I don't even know how to respond to it. But here is a try.

I already said that sharia law is a right here in the USA for those who wish to practice it so long and it does not infringe USA law. I won't practice it, but if another wishes to, that's his business. I have no opinion on polygamy, except maybe if people want it to become part of civil law, it should be for both sexes. Once again, I won't practice it. Underage marriage is a problem since it infringes the individual rights of the child. Burqas, modesty, etc. Who cares? I know I have no use for those things, but I certainly do not want to tell others how to dress.

How much control do you want to exercise over others? As much as you claim they want to exercise over you?

What does it say to women in Islamic countries when we don't speak up for their rights?

Why not ask some?

From what I have seen in the mainstream media, I think Laura Bush has been doing a great job of tearing down barriers instead of just talking about it. I wish there were more like her.

I have also seen interviews where Islamic women defend their lifestyles. Some are even Americans born and raised in the USA. What does it say to those women that you don't like their way of living?

I care deeply about human life, but I literally don't take social pressure into account in choosing my morals. So I have no opinion about what anything says to anyone I was not talking to in the first place. And even if I were, what they thought of me would not have any bearing on my morals.

What does it say to scholars when we say that fatwas and death threats for blasphemy have nothing to do with religion. It's papering over the obvious. For a "warts and all" guy, you seem to give this topic an exception, why?

Where did I give this topic an exception? I don't recall discussing it online.

I personally think any person from an non-British country who issues a fatwa to kill a citizen of England should have a price put on his head (in the millions) from the British government offered to bellic mercenaries the world over. Let him get a taste of what he gives. Too bad the dude who started it is deal already.

(Actually, on second thought, no it isn't. :) )

Michael

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Another trend I've found surprising: Of all of the people I've known from Arab countries, I've only heard one speak critically of policies of their home governments, but without fail these governments are some of the most craven, backward, awful, rights-abusing governments in existence. Why is that? My friend from Libya was quite outspoken about it, but that's it. I have found several Iranian immigrants critical of their government, but what a surprise.

My friend from Kuwait made no mention of the Al-Sabah family which has survived for centuries by dirty dealing and craven appeasement of its neigbors and that's one of the mildest cases I know.

James,

Have you asked any of these people if they personally harbor terrorists, or if they approve of those who do?

Michael

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Aside from the terror aspects of it, what are we to make of some of the trappings of Islam culturally: sharia law, polygamy, underaged marriage, full burqas, extreme physical modesty and so on? Do we just give it all a pass?

James,

That's such a mix, I don't even know how to respond to it. But here is a try.

I already said that sharia law is a right here in the USA for those who wish to practice it so long and it does not infringe USA law. I won't practice it, but if another wishes to, that's his business. I have no opinion on polygamy, except maybe if people want it to become part of civil law, it should be for both sexes. Once again, I won't practice it. Underage marriage is a problem since it infringes the individual rights of the child. Burqas, modesty, etc. Who cares? I know I have no use for those things, but I certainly do not want to tell others how to dress.

How much control do you want to exercise over others? As much as you claim they want to exercise over you?

What does it say to women in Islamic countries when we don't speak up for their rights?

Why not ask some?

From what I have seen in the mainstream media, I think Laura Bush has been doing a great job of tearing down barriers instead of just talking about it. I wish there were more like her.

I have also seen interviews where Islamic women defend their lifestyles. Some are even Americans born and raised in the USA. What does it say to those women that you don't like their way of living?

I care deeply about human life, but I literally don't take social pressure into account in choosing my morals. So I have no opinion about what anything says to anyone I was not talking to in the first place. And even if I were, what they thought of me would not have any bearing on my morals.

What does it say to scholars when we say that fatwas and death threats for blasphemy have nothing to do with religion. It's papering over the obvious. For a "warts and all" guy, you seem to give this topic an exception, why?

Where did I give this topic an exception? I don't recall discussing it online.

I personally think any person from an non-British country who issues a fatwa to kill a citizen of England should have a price put on his head (in the millions) from the British government offered to bellic mercenaries the world over. Let him get a taste of what he gives. Too bad the dude who started it is deal already.

(Actually, on second thought, no it isn't. :) )

Michael

That's a really good response. In the modern world, Islam is the only religion that carries much clout globally and governmentally and has been for quite some time. Other religions have been mostly kicked out of affairs of state for quite a while. Religion is a tool of social control and in poorer populations, governments need it to maintain order. Recently, Islam has had a chilling effect on free press in Europe effectively silencing the most brazen criticism. It's hard to have a large anti-Islam demonstration on a large college campus in the U.S. without security.

Your point about female religious dress is interesting. I actually have had Islamic women tell me that the coverings are freeing to them, allowing them to focus on social relationships without sexual pressure. I've also seen women say it is stultifying.

Getting back to your question about having intellectual relations with Islamic believers, sure you want to do that. You're missing out on 1/6 of the world if you don't and it's a tremendously mixed bag from more secular Turkey, slices of the Philippines, Malaysia, UAE and Indonesia to some of the kleptocratic regimes in North Africa and some of the repressive ones in the Persian Gulf and Central Asia. You can learn a lot about the world geopolitically and understand more about the world's pivot points. You also find many talented people, 2 jobs ago one of the smartest engineers I've worked with in semiconductors was from Algeria and had interesting things to say about that country and the whole history of French colonialism and independence. I'm not sure how much philosophy I want to bring up because I generally like to do more listening and drawing in these conversations than speaking.

Jim

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Another trend I've found surprising: Of all of the people I've known from Arab countries, I've only heard one speak critically of policies of their home governments, but without fail these governments are some of the most craven, backward, awful, rights-abusing governments in existence. Why is that? My friend from Libya was quite outspoken about it, but that's it. I have found several Iranian immigrants critical of their government, but what a surprise.

My friend from Kuwait made no mention of the Al-Sabah family which has survived for centuries by dirty dealing and craven appeasement of its neigbors and that's one of the mildest cases I know.

James,

Have you asked any of these people if they personally harbor terrorists, or if they approve of those who do?

Michael

Of course I haven't and haven't had to because the answer would be a resounding no.

Jim

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