Diehard attempt to enlighten Electors re:Obama not U.S.citizen

[Chris Grieb]

Galt; Bill P and Selene have spoken very well and I will not repeat their words. I note you have not answered the question about the money actually being paid into the Ron Paul campaign. This does not surprise me. I have come to think you are not a serious person and hope that people in the campaign are better than you. If you are the best then, thank goodness, they will not go anywhere. I suspect they are not with Dr. Paul's showing in the primary campaign.

[galtgulch]

Galt; Bill P and Selene have spoken very well and I will not repeat their words. I note you have not answered the question about the money actually being paid into the Ron Paul campaign. This does not surprise me. I have come to think you are not a serious person and hope that people in the campaign are better than you. If you are the best then, thank goodness, they will not go anywhere. I suspect they are not with Dr. Paul's showing in the primary campaign.

Mr. Grieb,

I have no way of knowing whether anyone paid any money to the CFL. There is a number of accounts 19464 which might reflect what you want to know. There are also 1320 Precinct Leaders listed.

Better?

I hope so too!

Evidently you are one of the "better" human beings although I have my doubts.

I do not believe one should "judge not" but I do not understand how you can judge a person's worth from posts on a website? It is also not clear why you would take the trouble to cast aspersions. I didn't answer one of your questions and therefore I am "not a serious person" and you "hope that people in the campaign are better than you." What is you intention in saying such things to someone you don't even know?

galt

[Selene]

No Galt, if it were true that you did not answer a mere one of the questions that would be defensible, but you are a way way away from that standard.

I would, calmly and I would hope you receive this the way it is intended, suggest that you step back and analyze your posts from the other side of what you are espousing.

Basically, you come across as an irrational asshole who refuses to look in the mirror, but I have argued for you in past posts and Micheal's ministration post was more than fair in my opinion.

Adam

[galtgulch]

Recent poll, non scientific, indicates that majority of U.S. citizens still think Obama's citizenship is in question and an issue :

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83846

Will the Supreme Court uphold the Constitution?

www.campaignforliberty.com membership 97381: then later 97391 8:13 PM 25 Dec 08; 97690 on 29 Dec 11AM

Edited December 29, 2008 by galtgulch

[Selene]

My friend:

The probative value of an on line poll is >0.

I understand your passion.

However, this is just not convincing evidence, even if it supports what we both agree to 100%, especially on this forum. This is the only forum that I participate in, and as you have asserted in other threads, you "work", so do I, and you are quite involved in life, as the rest of us are.

I am listening to Cuban and Haitian "Christmas music" on my Bose as my friends and family are celebrating Christmas in America in 2008.

However, on line polls are basically useless.

Adam

[kiaer.ts]

Chris,

I don't think galt is lying. He is very. very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very enthusiastic and committed.

Let's say he engages in some rhetorical excesses at times.

I don't put that on the same par as I do the vicious attacks I have seen nasty crummy people make, say, against the Brandens. Nor do I put your present hostility to galt in that boat. I attribute it more to exasperation than hatred and spite.

Galt does not strike me at all as one who wants to destroy anything. Instead he comes off as fighting for a better world, even when all is lost. In today's constant state of crisis, emergencies, and doom and gloom, I like having that bight-eyed, bushy-tailed enthusiasm around, even though the facts get mangled at times. I do admit it gets really exasperating at times, but I'll still take the spirit in his case.

Let's keep galt to the facts. By all means, let's do that. But let's also not kill his spirit. That's a most precious thing and he managed to preserve his pure. God knows how he did it, but he did. Killing it would be a sin, especially in today's world.

Michael

This is very fair. I would only comment that if we are to uphold the spirit of what he wants, we are correct to point out that the way he goes about things may be counterproductive. The worst friends of capitalism are those who defend it badly. Look at our so-called capitalist republicans. The same goes for those who would keep Obama accountable. Hysterical criticisms do not strengthen reasonable criticisms.

[galtgulch]

Chris,

I don't think galt is lying. He is very. very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very enthusiastic and committed.

Let's say he engages in some rhetorical excesses at times.

I don't put that on the same par as I do the vicious attacks I have seen nasty crummy people make, say, against the Brandens. Nor do I put your present hostility to galt in that boat. I attribute it more to exasperation than hatred and spite.

Galt does not strike me at all as one who wants to destroy anything. Instead he comes off as fighting for a better world, even when all is lost. In today's constant state of crisis, emergencies, and doom and gloom, I like having that bight-eyed, bushy-tailed enthusiasm around, even though the facts get mangled at times. I do admit it gets really exasperating at times, but I'll still take the spirit in his case.

Let's keep galt to the facts. By all means, let's do that. But let's also not kill his spirit. That's a most precious thing and he managed to preserve his pure. God knows how he did it, but he did. Killing it would be a sin, especially in today's world.

Michael

This is very fair. I would only comment that if we are to uphold the spirit of what he wants, we are correct to point out that the way he goes about things may be counterproductive. The worst friends of capitalism are those who defend it badly. Look at our so-called capitalist republicans. The same goes for those who would keep Obama accountable. Hysterical criticisms do not strengthen reasonable criticisms.

Thanks Ted,

But what if it is true that Obama is not a "natural born" citizen as required by the Constitution?

Is the Constitution irrelevant, anachronistic or just "an old parchment" as FDR referred to it?

I don't expect to save the world by posting this issue on OL. Just wanted to make you folks aware of the fact that various people have raised this issue including a Democrat who is an attorney.

I do harbor the hope that all is not lost, that our numbers will grow, that the ideas of Ayn Rand and Ludwig von Mises and their advocates will become widespread.

Unless you think that my recommending that people read Atlas Shrugged and Human Action may be counterproductive.

Please don't lump me in with the likes of W. who pays lip service to the free market and limited government and then outspends, ignores the limits on the Executive branch and ignores the Congress in one fell swoop, and is the poster child for those who believe the mentally challenged can become President of the United States.

galt

[Selene]

Ted:

Thank you so much.

Precisely.

I am frankly amazed that the same self destructive behavior of turning voraciously upon all of the folks who are in your philosophical group and frankly pissing them off was prevalent in the 60's at NBI.

I know that we have an excellent cause to advance, but we need to establish ourselves as a universal force that can deliver either votes or money to have an effect.

Adam

[Alfonso Jones]

Ted:

Thank you so much.

Precisely.

I am frankly amazed that the same self destructive behavior of turning voraciously upon all of the folks who are in your philosophical group and frankly pissing them off was prevalent in the 60's at NBI.

I know that we have an excellent cause to advance, but we need to establish ourselves as a universal force that can deliver either votes or money to have an effect.

Adam

Adam-

I think we would all do better to avoid the name-calling and fact-free insults. There are serious issues being discussed, and we will all not agree. That doesn't necessarily make any of us monsters. We would do well to remember the different between strongly disagreeing with someone and viewing them as morally reprehensible. This is not a distinction the Objectivist movement has a good historical track record at making.

Note: I'm not saying you have engaged in name-calling, insulting, etc.. Your post in fact points out the problem.

Let's all stay grounded in reality.

Bill P (who is smiling at the fact that almost anywhere else I would have written n.b. instead of Note in the last paragraph)

[galtgulch]

But what if it is true that Obama is not a "natural born" citizen as required by the Constitution?

Is the Constitution irrelevant, anachronistic or just "an old parchment" as FDR referred to it?

I don't expect to save the world by posting this issue on OL. Just wanted to make you folks aware of the fact that various people have raised this issue

galt

>>>"OPERATION SPIKE!

Most covered-up of 2008: Natural-born citizen

WND editors join with readers to determine the year's top 10

Posted: December 31, 2008

8:30 pm Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily

Charges that Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen of the U.S. and, therefore, constitutionally ineligible to serve as president top the list of the 10 most "spiked" or underreported stories of the last year, according to an annual WND survey.

At the end of each year, news organizations typically present their retrospective replays of what they consider to have been the top news stories in the previous 12 months.

WND's editors, however, have long considered it far more newsworthy to publicize the most important unreported or underreported news events of the year – to highlight perhaps for one last time major news stories that were undeservedly "spiked" by the establishment press.

WND Editor and CEO Joseph Farah has sponsored "Operation Spike" every year since 1988, and since founding WorldNetDaily in May 1997, he has continued the annual tradition.

Here, with our readers' help, are WorldNetDaily editors' picks for the 10 most underreported stories of 2008:

1. Charges that Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen of the U.S. and thus constitutionally ineligible to serve as president

More than a dozen lawsuits have been filed over Obama's eligibility to assume the presidency.

The cases have alleged the Illinois Democrat does not meet the "natural born citizen" clause of the U.S. Constitution, which reads, "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President."

WND launched a petition drive that has garnered some 200,000 signatories who demand that Obama simply provide documentation of his eligibility. But thus far, he has put up a legal defense to ensure his records remain sealed.

Some of the legal challenges have alleged Obama was not born in Hawaii, as he insists, and others have focused on his father's Kenyan citizenship.

Cases brought by Cort Wrotnowski and Leo Donofrio challenged Obama on allegations that dual citizenship – based on a father who was a British subject and a mother who was an American minor – disqualified him from office. Both, however, were turned down by the Supreme Court.

Philip J. Berg, a Pennsylvania Democrat, demanded that the courts verify Obama's original birth certificate and other documents proving his American citizenship. Berg's latest appeal, requesting an injunction to stop the Electoral College from selecting the 44th president, was denied. But the conference on the case is set for Jan. 9.

Former presidential candidate Alan Keyes headlines a list of claimants in a California suit that asked the secretary of state to refuse to allow the state's 55 Electoral College votes to be cast in the until Obama verified his eligibility to hold office."<<<

Here is link to more details:

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/obama/

No wonder Obama hired three law firms to hide his documents.

Edited January 1, 2009 by galtgulch

[BaalChatzaf]

Gulch,

In nineteen days Obama takes the Oath and becomes our 44-th President and nothing short of death or destruction is going to stop it.

Get used to it. All your legalistic quibbling is just noise. The secretary of state has blessed the vote of the electoral college. Give it up. It is a done deal.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[galtgulch]

Gulch,

In nineteen days Obama takes the Oath and becomes our 44-th President and nothing short of death or destruction is going to stop it.

Get used to it. All your legalistic quibbling is just noise. The secretary of state has blessed the vote of the electoral college. Give it up. It is a done deal.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ba'al,

But he shouldn't be because he is ineligible.

Just as I just found out that Mayor Bloomberg will be running again despite a term limit referendum which the voters of New York passed. Some governmental body decided that the referendum does not count and can be ignored.

Fascism has arrived.

www.campaignforliving.com membership 97902

gulch

[Chris Grieb]

Obama was born in the United States. He is a natural born citizen. He is over 35 years of age. He is constitutional eligible. You and the Aryan Brotherhood aren't going to change that.

[galtgulch]

Obama was born in the United States. He is a natural born citizen. He is over 35 years of age. He is constitutional eligible. You and the Aryan Brotherhood aren't going to change that.

Chris,

Obama will undoubtedly be chosen by the mindless, obedient, unquestioning, Constitution unabiding Electoral College goons and will be the next president and possibly the last elected president of this once free country.

I know that. It is all besides the point.

You do not know that Obama was born in this country. He has not shown the proper birth certificate. You know that his father was not an American citizen. You evidently don't realize what the Founders had in mind when they included "natural born" citizen in the barest criteria necessary for someone to qualify to be president.

I am not opposed to his becoming president because of his genetics. I think he is a bright, endearing and eloquent human being. I fear his education lacks certain knowledge and perspective. I think his motives are colored by his ideology and ethics which are on the altruist, collectivist side.

I would advocate amending the Constitution to increase the criteria needed to become eligible to include..., but under the circumstances I fear what a Constitutional convention would do.

The only hope is for enough people to regain the understanding necessary for this country to become free again. I want to believe that the www.campaignforliberty.com and the Objectivist/Libertarian schools or movements will enable that to happen. It may not in which case our children will have to contend with another Dark Age.

Thomas Jefferson spoke of eternal vigilance which most Americans coupled with the failure of the public school system have not done. The price will have to be paid. Obama will stop at nothing and will begin to demand more powers to force things to move in the direction of his vision.

www.campaignforliberty.com 97903 Be aware that I mention Ayn Rand's works on the Ron Paul sites.

gulch

[Selene]

Galt:

Point of clarification. You can amend the Constitution without calling a Constitutional Convention.

Additionally, in my opinion, the logistics of calling a Constitutional convention border on 0%.

"You evidently don't realize what the Founders had in mind when they included "natural born" citizen in the barest criteria necessary for someone to qualify to be president." < we could all use less of this type of invective in this New Year.

"I think his motives are colored by his ideology and ethics which are on the altruist, collectivist side." Now that semantic choice brought a real chuckle to me this New Years Day! Thanks, lol.

Finally, the electoral college, as I understand it from the Federalist papers, was placed in the decentralized structure as another protection against the type of "sweeping" democratic groundswellism [a new word I just invented] that you advocate with the Campaign for Liberty [which I believe that you will be surprised that I am a member of and have gotten about 80 some odd folks to join]!

At any rate, I believe that we should pursue a coordinated effort to spread Constitutional awareness and knowledge locally with various groups. Attending forums, local political and public meetings and possibly starting a discussion group at a local library.

Adam

[galtgulch]

Galt:

Point of clarification. You can amend the Constitution without calling a Constitutional Convention.

Additionally, in my opinion, the logistics of calling a Constitutional convention border on 0%.

"You evidently don't realize what the Founders had in mind when they included "natural born" citizen in the barest criteria necessary for someone to qualify to be president." < we could all use less of this type of invective in this New Year.

"I think his motives are colored by his ideology and ethics which are on the altruist, collectivist side." Now that semantic choice brought a real chuckle to me this New Years Day! Thanks, lol.

Finally, the electoral college, as I understand it from the Federalist papers, was placed in the decentralized structure as another protection against the type of "sweeping" democratic groundswellism [a new word I just invented] that you advocate with the Campaign for Liberty [which I believe that you will be surprised that I am a member of and have gotten about 80 some odd folks to join]!

At any rate, I believe that we should pursue a coordinated effort to spread Constitutional awareness and knowledge locally with various groups. Attending forums, local political and public meetings and possibly starting a discussion group at a local library.

Adam

Adam,

I was amused as well when the word came to mind to employ. I am glad I brought you some delight on this first day of the new year.

If the establishment needs protection against groundswellism, that could happen if a significant portion of the population came to their senses and adopted Objectivism as well.

I would like to live to see that day.

I am very pleased to find that you are a fellow member of the Campaign For Liberty. I am impressed that you are as successful as you are in recruiting so many to the cause, but then you do refer to them as "some odd folks" so maybe that explains it.

I agree that our success depends on not keeping our ideas to ourselves. I will keep my eyes open for such opportunities.

Have you made a resolution to be kind to the misguided?

97909

gulch

Edited January 1, 2009 by galtgulch

[Alfonso Jones]

Have you made a resolution to be kind to the misguided?

97909

gulch

More than one of us has made a resolution to be kind to the misguided - on this very thread.

Bill P (smiling)

[Chris Grieb]

Galt; All I want to see it one piece of evidence that Founders meant both parents had to be citizens. One or two quotes from the Constitutional Convention.

Please don't tell me that Edwin Vieirea has said Obama not qualified. Vieirea's three degrees from Harvard don't impress me.

Finally show me one piece of evidence that Obama's mother was ever in Kenya. If she wasn't then I accept Obama's story of his birth.

Do you really believe that no major media has looked into these claims. Isn't it a possibility they have and have found your story wanting.

I'm sorry if you don't like my linking you with the Aryan Brotherhood. You seem to be implying that those of us who disagree with you don't care about the country. We do.

Did you ever look at links on Instapundit? I suspect you don't.

[Alfonso Jones]

Galt; All I want to see it one piece of evidence that Founders meant both parents had to be citizens. One or two quotes from the Constitutional Convention.

Please don't tell me that Edwin Vieirea has said Obama not qualified. Vieirea's three degrees from Harvard don't impress me.

Finally show me one piece of evidence that Obama's mother was ever in Kenya. If she wasn't then I accept Obama's story of his birth.

Do you really believe that no major media has looked into these claims. Isn't it a possibility they have and have found your story wanting.

I'm sorry if you don't like my linking you with the Aryan Brotherhood. You seem to be implying that those of us who disagree with you don't care about the country. We do.

Did you ever look at links on Instapundit? I suspect you don't.

Well put, Chris.

Galt - please note that:

1) You are speaking as if you KNOW Obama to not be a natural-born U. S. citizen. You have yet to provide any convincing evidence for this claim. (Not statements that some columnist or advocate thinks the claim is true, but actual evidence!)

2) There are many people who would love to find that Obama is not eligible. Do you think they have not pursued this route (and found it to lead nowhere)? If what you have shown us on OL is the best of the evidence, then there is nothing of substance.

3) You seem to assume that "natural-born" means born within U.S. borders to two parents who were themselves U.S. citizens. Can you provide credible evidence that this is the meaning intended by the authors of the U. S. Constitution?

4) You seem to be assuming that the burden of proof is on Obama. Can you provide evidence for this?

You are completely failing to make your case. In fact, it seems as if you are not trying. YOu are just repeating the same claims with insults for those who won't become hysterical in support of those claims. Please - either make your case, or realize that you have repeated the claim often enough, and that those who didn't believe the initial undocumented assertions are unlikely to find them more credible just because you have repeated them many times.

Bill P

[Selene]

Chris, Bill Galt:

http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-b...en_defined.html

A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.

This is a decent overview of the issue.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

If Obama had been born by cesarean section he would not be eligible to be President of the United States. Has anyone checked this out yet?

--Brant

[Selene]

If Obama had been born by cesarean section he would not be eligible to be President of the United States. Has anyone checked this out yet?

--Brant

Now that is really funny!

Adam

[Chris Grieb]

Selene;

The points in the Federalist Blog seem to be good ones.

Bill P; As always all your points are excellent and stated much better than I did.

Galt; You sometimes say things that you offer no proof for. Your statement that we have had our last Presidential election is one. But of course Ron Paul was going to be the GOP nominee.

[galtgulch]

Selene;

The points in the Federalist Blog seem to be good ones.

Bill P; As always all your points are excellent and stated much better than I did.

Galt; You sometimes say things that you offer no proof for. Your statement that we have had our last Presidential election is one. But of course Ron Paul was going to be the GOP nominee.

Chris,

I am not trying to prove anything. My intent was simply, as I have stated repeatedly, to bring your attention to the efforts afoot to demonstrate that Obama is not eligible according to the Constitution.

Here is another tidbit in the form of a video which does refer to historical facts regarding the intent and meaning of the concept natural born:

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/77701

I said "possibly" which refers to future events which obviously have not occurred and may not occur. I wouldn't put it past him or most other politicians who have shown disregard for the Constitution or have used sophistry to justify their interpretations of the Constitution. The Sixteenth Amendment comes to mind as does the Selective Service Act of 1917, the Antitrust Laws, but the list is almost endless. Obama knows his father was Kenyan and a British subject. That did not stop him from aspiring to the presidency. He taught Constitutional Law so one can assume he has given thought to the issue of his eligibility.

Bloomberg just disregarded the referendum limiting the term of office of the mayor of NYC. What is to stop Obama from declaring a national emergency given the chaos which might result from his actions in the presidency. We all know that politicians cause problems and then clamor for more power to deal with the consequences never acknowledging that they and their policies were the cause. All I am saying is that I can imagine Obama running for a third term despite the Constitutional prohibition and with sufficient popular support such as Roosevelt had, he might do it or try it "for the good of the country." He thinks he is "that One" after all.

In the meanwhile, www.campaignforliberty.com continues to grow in number: 97926 97930 97946 97991

gulch

Edited January 3, 2009 by galtgulch

[Chris Grieb]

Galt; You're not the worst person on the Obama question. A Christian friend thinks Obama the Anti-Christ.

Galt; Do you think that's wrong?