SATIRE AS A MORAL MESSAGE?

[Paul Mawdsley]

gary,

I'll respond when I stop laughing. Everything is funnier in French.

Paul

(Canada also gave the world Nathaniel and Barbara.)

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

(Canada also gave the world Nathaniel and Barbara.)

I was wondering when somebody was going to get around to that. But you don't get off that easy.

Canada also gave the world Peikoff.

(I'm still mulling over that Eskimo woman in Cobweb Corner in my mind. I'll get to her later. Kitten's looking right now...)

Michael

[NickOtani]

I believe that the best rule would be to evaluate the good will of those interacting. If there is no malice detected, then let the good times roll. If malice is detected, then a request to stop - at the very least - is in order.

I agree with this. Good natured banter is actually a sign of affection between people. That’s what was explored in The Taming of the Shrew. However, there has to be respect for the person who wants to call it off. If it continues after a request to stop, then it becomes harassment and is malicious.

Racial jokes are considered as extremely poor taste these days. Yet in Brazil, you find a great deal of good-natured racial banter going on between the strongest of friends. (This includes white, black, oriental, Indian, all races.) There is absolutely no attempt at demeaning the people at the butt end of the jokes, merely a playful jab at differences. The butt ends usually retort in kind.

Yes, I’ve heard that the races mix much better in Brazil than they do in some parts of the states. Perhaps people are not so isolated there, so segregated.

This is a very difficult environment to explain to Americans since there is such an amount of irrational aggressiveness about this here.

There seems also a lack of sophistication in some places in America. Some people may not realize that the word “Jap” might be offensive to Japanese people and speak admiringly of how industrious those “Japs” are. Not long ago, people didn’t see anything wrong with caricatures of Native Americans and spongy tomahawks at football games. Before that, they didn’t see anything wrong with pancake houses which featured little Black Sambo. And, was the Frito Bandito politically incorrect?

I have seen politically correct foreigners try to teach their hatred to Brazilians and get them to stop this kind of joking. The Brazilians become concerned with the unhappiness of the person and try to make him feel better, but they keep on joking. The hatred simply doesn't take. In extreme instances, Brazilians just get away from the person blowing their high.

Feminists work hard to have women taken seriously, and Benny Hill lets it all hang out. Yet, some feminists think Benny Hill was actually making fun of the men who acted crazy around women.

When Cyrano DeBergerac recited all those jokes about the length of his nose, he was actually mocking the witless fool who tried to insult him.

Where do you draw the line? Like I say, there are certain attempts at humor that I don’t find funny. I didn’t really think Beavis and Butthead and Dumb and Dumber type humor was funny. I don’t like the dumb blond jokes or the even the Joey character in Friends. I don’t like the Homer Simpson character. I think it is sad when people lack intelligence and perception, not funny.

Even if the line is hard to draw, we have to make some distinctions. Not all humor is equal.

BTW, I also think it is childish and cowardly, not funny, when posters on messageboards hide behind ridicule rather than respond to arguments with reasoning and evidence.

Bis bald,

Nick

[gary williams]

I also think it is childish and cowardly, not funny, when posters on messageboards hide behind ridicule rather than respond to arguments with reasoning and evidence.

Really? Hmmm? I will tell Paul to stop.

I didn’t really think Beavis and Butthead and Dumb and Dumber type humor was funny. I don’t like the dumb blond jokes or the even the Joey character in Friends. I don’t like the Homer Simpson character. I think it is sad when people lack intelligence and perception, not funny.

Dooooh!!!

Racial jokes are considered as extremely poor taste these days.

Only those told by Whitey!

Chris Rock

The late, great Richard Pryor

George Lopez

The late Freddy Prinze

The entire Wayons family

The late Eddie Murphy

Regis Philbin

They all have beaten the crap out'a my pale brothers for years. They made millions pointing out the weaknesses of my race. They showed the world our true nature and they ridiculed it! They ridiculed the way we always bite our bottom lip when we dance. They stereotyped us for having wee willies! They made fun of our mullets!

And yes, they made sure the whole world knew that it was a white man who uttered those famous words - "You sure gotta pretty mouth!" in the movie Deliverance! Oh, the horror!

Ya know what? I say more power to them! They are funny!

I'm not offended. My feelings are not hurt. I feel no outrage. I feel no need to defend my people against the verbal tyranny of other races. I have no need to whine for the dignity of my down-trodden brothers!

I can not be offended by jokes, because I understand them.

That is as simple as I can put it.

That does not mean I won't respond to someone who is trying to offend me. I usually can tell the difference. And if they throw something truly witty my way, I will take the time to laugh before I turn their life into a living hell! Out of respect for the art you see.

The whole world is offended these days!

I don't care.

Be miserable if you want. It's your life.

I will continue to offend Canucks and Jerrys and Bohunks and Frogs and the Washington Redskins; whilst also showing very little respect for the fascism of english grammer!

Loving every minute of it!

The butt ends usually retort in kind.

I resemble that remark!

Laugh Damn It!

gw

[Paul Mawdsley]

Michael,

Shauna suggests you fulfill your fantasy and take Kat to theIce Hotel here in the Great White North. Canada: first we gave you Pamela Anderson, then Shania Twain, now we can make your childhood sex fantasies come true.

Paul

(Sorry about giving you Celine. We all make mistakes.)

[william.scherk]

I give her two weeks, then she'll no longer be able to resist

Howzabout a Greatest Hits of Summer summary to welcome her back, listmates? There's bound to be some goings-on while she's on hiatus.

Anglosphere conquers France?

-- (Henry IV heraldry from

The Fleur-de-lis)

I figure Ellen's gonna have a big easy on the eyes and mind for a spell. Good on her, sez this western Canuck . . . elle a des perçus bien aigus, ansi je la lis en pur délice d'argument.

[NickOtani]

They all have beaten the crap out'a my pale brothers for years. They made millions pointing out the weaknesses of my race. They showed the world our true nature and they ridiculed it! They ridiculed the way we always bite our bottom lip when we dance. They stereotyped us for having wee willies! They made fun of our mullets!  

And yes, they made sure the whole world knew that it was a white man who uttered those famous words - "You sure gotta pretty mouth!" in the movie Deliverance! Oh, the horror!  

Ya know what? I say more power to them! They are funny!  

I'm not offended. My feelings are not hurt. I feel no outrage. I feel no need to defend my people against the verbal tyranny of other races. I have no need to whine for the dignity of my down-trodden brothers!

I assume you are a white middle-class male in a predominately white middle-class male dominated society. Correct me if I am wrong. Do you know what it is like to be a minority? Are you a descendent of slaves? Have many of your relatives been exterminated and their land taken over by white males? Were your grandparents put in relocation centers while your father was put into a segregated Army to fight for a country which dropped atomic bombs on their homeland and, while the segregated unit distinguished itself in battle, its members came back, with purple hearts and missing limbs, and told they wouldn’t be served in certain restaurants?

These people don’t want to be whiners and complainers. They don’t want to be victims. However, they also don’t want to be called chinks or gooks or niggers or what have you. They have a right to object, don’t they?

People need to empathize with other people and have some sensitivity for what they are feeling. Humans are equal, qua humans, and have equal rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Yes, this involves property rights and prohibitions against the initiation of physical force. However, violations of those rights begin with seeing humans as objects, not humans. When Vietnamese people become “the enemy” or “gooks,” it is not as hard to heard them into a ditch and shoot them as it is if they are people, like us, who simply want to have a flourishing life. Do you agree with this?

Bis bald,

Nick

[Roger Bissell]

Nick is absolutely right, only I wish he'd stop sugar-coating his points! Come on, Nick, out with it: anyone who laughs at ethnic jokes etc. is a spiritual mass-murderer, right?

Sheesh.

At least, now I know that I'm not supposed to laugh at jokes like the following:

What is the difference between a sushi bar and a gay Puerto Rican bar?

In a sushi bar, you're more likely to eat raw eel. In a gay Puerto Rican bar, you're more likely to eat Raoul.

Or...

These two black guys and a white guy were walking across a bridge late at night, and they all had to urinate, so they decided to do it off the side of the bridge. One black guy said, "Brrr, that water's cold," and the other black guy said, "Yeah, and it's deep, too," and the white guy said, "Huh, what do you mean?"

I hope no one revealed his (or her) death-premise by laughing at the above material.

Coming soon: jokes about bis bald guys.

REB

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I don't know if the spirit of the following joke will translate well to those who have not lived in Brazilian or Portuguese culture, but I always chuckle when I remember it. In Brazil, they are always telling Portuguese jokes, like the old Polish jokes here in the USA when I was younger. (And some of the funniest ones I know were told to me by Portuguese people living in Brazil.)

One day a Brazilian goes up to a Portuguese friend and says, "Hey. I have a great Portuguese joke."

The guy looks at him for a second. "You know, I'm getting tired of all these Portuguese jokes. You guys dump on us for everything. Can't you pick another race for a change?"

The Brazilian thought about it, then said, "OK. You're right. Well, listen. There were these two Japanese dudes. One was named Manoel and the other Joaquim..."

Michael

[gary williams]

I assume you are a white middle-class male in a predominately white middle-class male dominated society.

Not exactly. I was born below middle class & now I am vastly above middle class. I do know that being white or middle class is irrelevant to either racism or jokes.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Sure!

Do you know what it is like to be a minority?

There are no minorities. There are only humans.

 Are you a descendent of slaves?

Yes.

Have many of your relatives been exterminated and their land taken over by white males?

Too many to count and it wasn't always by white men.

Were your grandparents put in relocation centers

Yes & No. Their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts....were.

Ever hear of a place called Crystal City, Texas?

My Grandfather was spared due to his 'American' wife.

He lost sons in that war.

while your father was put into a segregated Army to fight for a country which dropped atomic bombs on their homeland

Sorta', my family served in the Navy during WWII & would have been very happy to drop the bomb on any enemy if given the opportunity. You see, they considered The United States of America to be their homeland.

They would have loved to see the victory they fought for, but they did not live to see it. They died fighting Japanese, not Japanese American minorities fighting for their homeland.

and, while the segregated unit distinguished itself in battle, its members came back, with purple hearts and missing limbs, and told they wouldn’t be served in certain restaurants?

Yes. My family too.

WWII was a bitch! Not only for those of Japanese decent.

Life is a bitch! Not only for those of Japanese decent.

Stop being a victim.

gw

[Rich Engle]

Nick wonders if any of us middle-class white bois have ever drank out of the smaller, dirtier water fountain:

"Do you know what it's like to be a minority?"

Oh Hell, yes! For instance, I'm in my office right now and I'm one of 3 white guys in about a 5 mile radius which makes the set of Escape From New York look like a Trump property. That's every day for me.

Screw PC. Let me say that again: screw PC. PC turned into yet another complication in the work world. No, let me rephrase that: it turned into another weapon. If people are afraid of words, if that's all it takes to activate their fight/flight, well, fuck 'em.

In this country, most of us are a minority in one way or another. Most of us came from immigrants, slaves, dirt farmers, what have you.

I think it's absolutely precious when you can lay a shock on someone just by words. Talk about being social metaphysics- cued. Oh, the pain! The outrage!

If someone called me a genetically-flawed backwoods ho-dad mutated em-effer, and I cried, I need to stop feeling sorry for myself.

There is not a verbal attack on the planet that a person with a healthy self-view can't withstand. A sucker punch in the eye, yes, ouch. A verbal attack, pu-leeeze.

rde

The New Millenium: an age of needy, whiney little bitches.

[Roger Bissell]

To whom it may concern:

Obviously, to anyone with the least bit of sensitivity for the plight of the oppressed, Gary Williams and Rich Engle are malevolent, man-hating, spiritual genocidal bastards. And I agree completely with their viewpoints as expressed in the two preceding posts.

bis full-head-of-hair

Roger Bissell

P.S. -- I'm 58 today, so no "old guy" jokes, please. :-)

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Roger,

Happy birthday!

58?

I swear you don't look a day over 71.

Michael

[gary williams]

People need to empathize with other people and have some sensitivity for what they are feeling. Humans are equal, qua humans, and have equal rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Yes, this involves property rights and prohibitions against the initiation of physical force. However, violations of those rights begin with seeing humans as objects, not humans. When Vietnamese people become “the enemy” or “gooks,” it is not as hard to heard them into a ditch and shoot them as it is if they are people, like us, who simply want to have a flourishing life. Do you agree with this?

I treat everyone equally.

I don't make excuses and blame another race for my hurt feelings.

I don't empathize, I reason.

Humans are humans.

An enemy is an enemy by what they do, not who they are.

Blaming Whitey for all the ills of the world is getting old and getting nowhere.

I dispise whiners.

There is not a verbal attack on the planet that a person with a healthy self-view can't withstand. A sucker punch in the eye, yes, ouch. A verbal attack, pu-leeeze.

BINGO!

Become bulletproof.

gw

[Robert Campbell]

Roger,

Happy birthday!

Robert

[Rich Engle]

Happy BD, Roger! Many, many more ahead, my man!

rde

Malevolent, spark-killing curmudgeon crusher,

Unitarian, swing dancer, occasional restaurant critic.

[NickOtani]

A few questions:

Were Martn Luther King Jr. and Malcom X whiners and victims? Should they have just shut up and stopped blaming whitey for all the ills of the world?

If words cannot hurt, why get upset with rude people? Is it over-sensitivity to have a hissy fit when someone misrepresents you on a messageboard, perhaps compares you to a relgious fanatic?

If words cannot hurt, why are we angry with Osama bin Laden? Did he actually do anything other than talk, incite others to do things?

Early in 2005, after the devestating Tsunami, a hip hop radio station in New York, Hot97, played a parody of Michael Jackson, sung to the tune of "We Are The World." Part of this song is as follows:

There was a time when the sun was shining bright

So I went down to the beach to catch me a tan

Then the next thing I knew, a wave twenty feet high

Came and washed your country away

And all at once you could hear the screaming chinks

And no one was safe from the wave

There were Africans drowning, little Chinamen swept away You could hear God laughing, "Swim, you bitches, swim!"  

So now you're screwed, it's the tsunami

You better run or kiss your ass away, go find your mommy

I just saw her float by, a tree went through her head

and now your children will be sold to child slavery (2X)

The co-hosts of this station, Miss Jones and Todd Lynn, quarrelled with another employee of the station, Miss Info, who was of Korean dissent. Miss Info stated that she did not approve of this song being played and did not feel comfortable being part of the decision to air it. Miss Jones dismissed her saying, "It's because you are Asian and feel superior, but you are not." Todd Lynn said, "I'm going to start shooting some Asians."

Following this incident and the airing of the song, the station received numerous outraged letters protesting this song and the comments heard on air. Miss Jones read them on the air and snickered and played the song again.

Whose side would you be on in this situation?

Nick

[gary williams]

First of all -

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WHITEY!!!

Next,

Were Martn Luther King Jr. and Malcom X whiners?

No, they had balls. You did not here any high pitched squeals from those two men. The fact that they got some things wrong doesn't make them whiners. Being a whiner takes a special mentality.

and victims?

When the bullets took their lives, yes. Before that, no.

Should they have just shut up

No. And neither should you & neither will I.

and stopped blaming whitey for all the ills of the world?

Yes.

why get upset with rude people?

The words are irrelevant. It is the act of rudeness that is wrong.

Is it over-sensitivity to have a hissy fit when someone misrepresents you on a messageboard, perhaps compares you to a relgious fanatic?

It is not over-sensitivity. It is self-assertivness. When you misrepresent someone on a messageboard, you are lying about them. It is the act of lying that will not be tolerated.

why are we angry with Osama bin Laden?

If you have to ask........

Did he actually do anything other than talk, incite others to do things?

Yes.

He is in command of an army.

He gives orders.

They are followed.

And he is not joking.

Early in 2005, after the devestating Tsunami, a hip hop radio station in New York, Hot97, played a parody of Michael Jackson, sung to the tune of "We Are The World." Part of this song is as follows:

Quote:

There was a time when the sun was shining bright

So I went down to the beach to catch me a tan

Then the next thing I knew, a wave twenty feet high

Came and washed your country away

And all at once you could hear the screaming chinks

And no one was safe from the wave

There were Africans drowning, little Chinamen swept away You could hear God laughing, "Swim, you bitches, swim!"

So now you're screwed, it's the tsunami

You better run or kiss your ass away, go find your mommy

I just saw her float by, a tree went through her head

and now your children will be sold to child slavery (2X)

The co-hosts of this station, Miss Jones and Todd Lynn, quarrelled with another employee of the station, Miss Info, who was of Korean dissent. Miss Info stated that she did not approve of this song being played and did not feel comfortable being part of the decision to air it. Miss Jones dismissed her saying, "It's because you are Asian and feel superior, but you are not." Todd Lynn said, "I'm going to start shooting some Asians."

Following this incident and the airing of the song, the station received numerous outraged letters protesting this song and the comments heard on air. Miss Jones read them on the air and snickered and played the song again.

Change the channel.

Whose side would you be on in this situation?

Mine.

Live anyway you want. Continue to be miserable.

Hey, the world is full of shitty people, but I do not empathize with you one single iota.

I choose not to.

gw

[NickOtani]

It is not over-sensitivity. It is self-assertivness. When you misrepresent someone on a messageboard, you are lying about them. It is the act of lying that will not be tolerated.

Would it also be self-assertiveness? If someone represents me as someone who thinks anyone who laughs at ethnic jokes etc. is a spiritual mass-murderer, is that person lying? Will his lie not be tolerated on this messageboard?

(Question)Whose side would you be on in this situation?

(GW)Mine.

(Nick)Nice evasion. The Asian community thanks you.

Live anyway you want. Continue to be miserable.  

Hey, the world is full of shitty people, but I do not empathize with you one single iota.  

I choose not to.

If you don’t want to take a stand, it’s your choice. Don’t characterize those of us who do as “miserable.” That’s a lie, and lies won’t be tolerated. When someone is mugging you in the backroom, perhaps I will not empathize with you one iota. Life is a bitch. The world is full of shitty people. Just because Hitler thought the most efficient way to fit a dozen Jews in a Volkswagen was to put them in the ashtray, no need to judge him, right?

Bis bald,

Nick

[Kevin Haggerty]

Hey everybody,

I'd like to go back to Ayn Rand's explanation of why the rich man slipping on the banana peel is funny and disagree with it unreservedly!

Humor is a metaphysical negation. We regard as funny that which contradicts reality: the incongruous and the grotesque. Take the crudest example of humor: a dignified gentleman in top hat and tails walks down the street, slips on a banana peel, and falls down in a ludicrous position. Why is this supposed to be amusing? Because of the incongruity: if a dignified man falls down over a stupid object like a banana peel, it establishes him as contradictory to and unfit to deal with reality. That is what one laughs at.

It's gotta be tough to come up with a unified theory of what's funny, particularly if you are not yourself a very funny person. If you don't spend any time trying to make people laugh, how you gonna generalize about what does the trick? On the contrary, if you don't practice being funny, then your personal encounters with humor will tend to be as the butt of the joke; the technical term for humorless sour-puss is, after all, "easy mark." In order for Rand to understand humor she'd have had to learn to "walk in the other guy's shoes" once in a while. And that, to the best of my knowledge, never happened.

Y'see, from where I sit, humor is metaphysical afirmation. Laughter comes into play precisely when reality busts through the lies constructed by our minds in order to fit in with the community. Laughter is at it base anarchic, unsocialized and exstatic (interestingly, as Michael noted, laughter is "contagious" so does seem to have some "community building" characteristics of its own, but communities based solely on a shared sense of humor don't tend to be organized enough to be politically significant--Stewart/Colbert '08!).

Now take the tophatted fellow slipping on his banana skin. It's not funny because it "contradicts reality!" (Y'know, I gotta make an aside here about ol' Ayn: that seems like just about the illest usage of the word "reality" coming from a philosopher as I can imagine! What in the man's wardrobe or pretentions denotes "reality?" What in blazes is she talking about? She uses this word "reality" because it suits her argument to do so, but there is nothing more real in her example than the Newtonian physics of the prat-fall.) As I say, it's not funny because it contradicts reality, but because reality marches right up and hits this bozo between the eyes!

People like the gentleman in the example tell us they're better than everyone else, wiser, more beautiful, more deserving, etc. and we believe them. We do. We idolize the rich, the famous, the more fortunate than we. We accept their pretention every day, we translate their lies into pleasing fantasies, we bow and scrape in hopes of "promotion," we buy their product 'cause the ad said it was "new and improved;" we elect them to public office because their lies reflect our prejudices better than the other guy's--and then we see "one o' them" slip and fall on his ass like anyone and something clicks in our heads, for a precious exstatic moment negating a lifetime of indoctrination and comforting lies, we laugh.

-Kevin

[gary williams]

Nick is absolutely right, only I wish he'd stop sugar-coating his points! Come on, Nick, out with it: anyone who laughs at ethnic jokes etc. is a spiritual mass-murderer, right?

Notice the funny looking thing at the end of the words, the one with the dot under it. That means he is asking you a question. He is asking you if your opinon is "anyone who laughs at ethnic jokes etc. is a spiritual mass-murderer"?

You are supposed to answer him.

And yes he is making fun of you.

Bad Roger! Bad!

(Question)Whose side would you be on in this situation?

(GW)Mine.

(Nick)Nice evasion. The Asian community thanks you.

Well, just be glad it wasn't a nice invasion! You know how we white folk are!

The Asian community thanks you.

Their welcome, but I didn't do it for them.

When someone is mugging you in the backroom, perhaps I will not empathize with you one iota.

If it happens it happens. You might want to empathize for the mugger though, I can get kinda' surly and be pernicious to those kind of people.

Just because Hitler thought the most efficient way to fit a dozen Jews in a Volkswagen was to put them in the ashtray, no need to judge him, right?

That is actually quite clever! Bravo!

It always comes back to Hitler.

He was in command of an army.

He gave orders.

They were followed.

And he was not joking.

He was judged.

Who are you going to drag out next? Pol Pot?

No, he's Asian.

Stalin is my guess.

I think he's white enough for you!

Nick,

I can keep this up longer than you can. If you want to keep slinging crap at me, go ahead.

I think everyone else has left.

Oh, well.

Throw another one at me!

And put some pepper on it!

gw

[CNA]

Happy Birthday, Roger, and enjoy !! :D/

So my cock eyed friend, it's futile, if you know what I mean. Btw, I'm German, Russian, Polish, Cherokee Indian and part Hillbilly on top of it. You got any good jokes for me !! I know you're part Hillbilly too so I imagine you would !! Ciro had me bustin' up over the Indian Mating Season over in the Humor department.

Angie

[Paul Mawdsley]

Is it over-sensitivity to have a hissy fit when someone misrepresents you on a messageboard, perhaps compares you to a relgious fanatic?

Did someone call my name?

Paul

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kevin!!!!!

Great to see you again. How have you been?

About humor, don't you find Rand's view fits the act of mocking? I find it fits it to a tee. Mocking always has a component of denigration, so I easily agree that mocking the good is not good. Mocking evil is (albeit this can get awfully lame and corny at times.)

I just don't think mocking is all there is to humor. It is humor, but not all there is by far.

Michael

[NickOtani]

I think exposing hypocrisy is funny only sometimes. When someone makes fun of someone for misspelling a word, but then makes routine errors in spelling and punctuation himself, it’s pretty funny.

When someone says he doesn’t let verbal attacks bother him but then whines about people being rude, and people whining, and people blaming whitey for all the ills of the world, I think it’s still a little funny.

When someone praises people who took stands against racism, including verbal attacks, but then evades the chance to do so himself, like a coward, it stops being funny.

I have no respect for people who see the racist tsunami song, have the option to condemn it, and decide to do nothing. It is as condemnable as witnessing a rape and doing nothing, not even calling the police to report it.

I don’t want to be that kind of person. If you are going to throw crap at me for that, then go for it. It doesn’t bother me.

Bis bald,

Nick