The Objectivist Family Tree

[Chris Grieb]

I don't how many patients Dr. Locke had but I suspect no more than 10. Most of his students were students of Objectivism. I think he taught one general course and worked with graduate students at Maryland.

[Roger Bissell]

I found an old essay by Edwin Locke, "The Contradiction of Epiphenomenalism," which appeared around 1965 in The British Journal of Psychology. It cites, and is really little more than a recycled version of, Nathaniel Branden's Objectivist Newsletter essay, "The Contradiction of Determinism."

I presume Locke was already Ph.D.'d by that time. (Otherwise, it's hard to see how his essay would have been accepted by the BJP.)

REB

[Chris Grieb]

Kat; Charles Sures in his memoir Facets of Ayn Rand says the went up to NYC to take Basic Principles and met Ayn Rand after a lecture. Another person who took Basic with me in 1966 was Karl Hess. He had been the chief speechwriter for Barry Goldwater in 1964 and been treated badly after the campagn. He late became a Libertarian and friends with Murray Rothbard.

[Robert Campbell]

According to the paper that Laura McClelland (my student) wrote on Edwin Locke, he was born in 1938, got his Psychology degree from Harvard in 1960, and earned his Ph.D. in Industrial Psych from Cornell in 1964. He taught at Maryland from 1970 to 2001, when he retired.

So Locke had probably finished his Ph.D. when he submitted that article to British Journal of Psychology. It's not necessary, though. I published my first journal article while in grad school, and, these days, having pubs on your vita is almost mandatory before you apply for an Assistant Professor job in psychology.

Robert Campbell

[Ellen Stuttle]

I don't how many patients Dr. Locke had but I suspect no more than 10.  Most of his students were students of Objectivism.  I think he taught one general course and worked with graduate students at Maryland.

What's the referent of "students" in the second sentence? Does that mean in course work or in clinical work? Or maybe he was teaching a course on "O'ist psychology" separate from his teaching at U. Maryland?

A detail of wording which points to a difference in model: You used the term "patients." I used "clients." The medical model underlies the designation "patients," whereas "clients" (though some medical modelists use it almost interchangeably with "patients") fits the "life counseling" model. A separate subject from O'ism's family tree. One which might be interesting to get into in the Psychology forum at a later time.

Ellen

PS: Roger, Locke was definitely Ph.D.-ed by the time I met him, which was in '70, and I seem vaguely to recall that he'd already gotten his doctorate before he began studying Objectivism. I think he was considered a bit of a "coup" because of his pre-existing credentials, sort of like a milder degree of crowing than was done over Robert Efron's becoming interested.

Edit: Robert meanwhile posted with c.v. dates.

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[Ellen Stuttle]

Kat;  Charles Sures in his memoir Facets of Ayn Rand says the went up to NYC to take Basic Principles and met Ayn Rand after a lecture.

I thought the memoir was by Mary Ann. Was it co-authored by the two of them?

Also, that account has to be airbrushing: an ellision of Mary Ann's friendship formed at art school with Joan Blumenthal -- and in turn of Joan's friendship with Barbara. The Sures were pulled in through the family tree connections, not simply from going to take an NBI course and then happening to meet AR.

Ellen

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[Chris Grieb]

Ellen I meant to use the word patients rather than students. I thought of myself as a patient. Dr Locke's students U of Maryland were not students of Objectivism at least those who took Psy 101. I did not know much about Dr. Locke's career. Thanks for your contributions to this tread. Barbara when did the taped lectures start? I know in 1960 & 61 you were giving live lectures in Philly.

[CNA]

Since this thread is pretty active, I have a question, preferrably if Barbara can answer it or anyone that was in that circle when Atlas was being written. When Atlas was written, were there any outside influences on the ideas presented in the book, outside influences specifically meaning any of NB's thoughts or ideas? Or was Atlas written strictly from AR's ideas only, etc?

Angie

[Barbara Branden]

Angie:"When Atlas was written, were there any outside influences on the ideas presented in the book, outside influences specifically meaning any of NB's thoughts or ideas? Or was Atlas written strictly from AR's ideas only, etc?"

That's a very difficult question to answer. Essentially, I would say no, there were no outside influences that I know of in major ways. But almost throughout the writing of Atlas -- we entered Rand's life when the book was less than one-third completed -- Nathaniel and I (especially Nathaniel) discussed endlessly with Rand the ideas being presented and the ideas that were yet to be prresented. Rand often said that this helped her to clarify her thoughts. But whether things we said caused her to amplify certain issues, alter others, or add still others -- I simply do not know. Our focus was so much on learning her ideas, which we were doing at breakneck speed, so much on the effects of those ideas on us and the implications we saw in them, that we were very unlikely even to notice if we and our questions and discussions and theorizing were affecting her.

It is the case that Nathaniel was constantly discussing psychological issues -- where he was doing original thinking, devising his theories of social metaphysics and emotionalism, the source of pathological anxiety, the nature of mental health and illness, the nature of selfesteem, and so on -- with Rand, and that she often mentioned how much he had contributed to her understanding. In this sense, she was doing new thinking because of him. And she often wrote papers in her journal about one of another of his theories, papers which she discussed with us. It is also the case that I was constantly discussing the philosophers and their ideas that I was studying at UCLA and later at NYU, much of which was new to her. Here also, she was doing new thinking by helping me to unravel the logic or illogic of the ideas of these philosophers.

I did have a very minor effect on a plot detail in Atlas, I was very proud of the fact that I was responsible for Rand deciding that Ragnar should be married to Kay Ludlow, the actress whom we meet in Atlantis.

Barbara

[Chris Grieb]

Ellen; The book Facets of Ayn Rand Memoirs is by Mary Ann Sures and Charles Sures. It is a transcript of interviews by Scott McConnell who works for the Ayn Rand Institute. Charles Sures died before the book was published but all of his parts had been completed.

[CNA]

Barbara,

Thank you. That's what I had suspected. I know I've read places that it was strictly her ideas. But I wanted to hear it from someone that knew her and was around her when she was writing Atlas. Hmmm...very interesting. Even if there were no so to speak major influences that altered her ideas, she was still talking with others specifically NB at length. So there was some type of outside influence, although I would imagine she was not swayed from her beliefs that were already instilled in her based on her observations and what she saw, etc. Even though Atlas may be predominantly her ideas, NB still had some type of influence. I'm asking specifically in regard to NB because of the psychological aspects of it. There's much I find interesting. Oh, I see, just had an idea and much clarified by what you said.

But at any rate, the main ideas were hers but NB came in and cleared up a few things for her and gave her a new direction. So in my view, NB did have some type of influence on Atlas and the contents therein. Wow.

Since Atlas was one-third completed when you both entered her life, did she do any revisions of it when this happened, if you know?

How old was Rand when you both first met her?

I also find it very interesting that she was already writing Atlas but much of other philosopher's ideas were "new" to her which you were discussing with her at that time. Hmmm....interesting.

Thank you again Barbara, clarified much

Angie

[Barbara Branden]

Angie: "I would imagine she was not swayed from her beliefs that were already instilled in her based on her observations and what she saw, etc."

You are most emphatically correct!

You asked how old Rand was when we met her. She was 49.

Barbara

[Roger Bissell]

Barbara, you wrote:

You asked how old Rand was when we met her. She was 49.

Ayn Rand was born February 2, 1905, and, according to The Passion of Ayn Rand, "Ayn met Nathaniel at her home on an evening in March 1950." (p. 233) That would make Ayn 45 years old at your meeting her.

Also, according to PAR, "I first met Ayn Rand in 1950. At the age of forty-five, she had already achieved a singular renown..." (p. ix).

Now, I'm not sure that the author of this book is a reliable source of factual information about Rand, but it seems consistent with what other, more reliable sources have said. :-)

REB

P.S. -- By the way, I was not quite 2 years old at the time you and Nathaniel met Rand, so I really don't remember much of what happened, so I really appreciate your filling me in on the details. <g>

[Barbara Branden]

Roger: "Ayn Rand was born February 2, 1905, and, according to The Passion of Ayn Rand, "Ayn met Nathaniel at her home on an evening in March 1950." (p. 233) That would make Ayn 45 years old at your meeting her."

I told you I was terrible at mathematics!

Barbara

[Kat]

Ellen,

On another thread you mentioned that Fred had attended the epistemology classes. I know you have also mentioned that your husband was involved too. Who else participated in the Epistemology seminars and where are they now? I'd also like to hear about who became involved through the writing workshops, NBI and other lectures.

I'm interested in hearing about anyone with a direct connection to Ayn Rand, how they became involved and what direction their lives took.

Chris, you seem to know quite a bit of the political connections, I'd love to hear more.

Barbara, who did Ayn and Frank recruit on their own? The way the chart looks now is that Ayn brought in Nathaniel. He brought you in, and the two of your brought in friends and relatives and so on.

If anyone has a listing of names with brief descriptions of who's who that they can email to me at katdaddy@comcast.net, that would be great.

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

Kat

[Chris Grieb]

Kat; Let's start with Martin Anderson, I believe he read Fountainhead and Atlas then took Basic. He may have taken other courses. Presuasion magazine had a conference on the draft at which Anderson was one of the speakers. Joan Kennedy Taylor said Anderson got a call from Nixon while at the conference. Nixon was interested in reforming the draft and was willing to look into alboshing it. Nixon in 1968 proposed moving to an all volunteer force and was elected. He appointed a commission headed by Alan Greenspan who had also served as an advisor to Nixon during the campaign. There was a report that Greenspan was going to turn his economics course into a book with Anderson's help.

[Chris Grieb]

Miss Rand had some correspondence with Barry Goldwater which is reprinted in her Letters. Miss Rand was initially very impressed with Ronald Reagan but later came to have a very low opinion of Reagan. Reagan in an interview in Reason was familiar with Fountainhead but had not read Atlas. Congressman John Ashcroft placed two essays of Miss Rand's in the Congressional Record. Ashcroft was a conservative Republican from Ohio. I believe Man's Right and The Nature of Governmentwere the articles. In the NYT in a piece about the Goldwater defeat(the day after the election) quotes were taken from National Review and NBI.

[Chris Grieb]

Barbara; Could you tell when tape transcription division started? I have a feeling 1961. Where the first cities Boston, DC, LA and San Francisco? Where Peter Crosby in LA and Paul Eissen in San Francisco the onlyNBI business reps in those cities. I know Charles Sures was the second rep in DC.

[Chris Grieb]

During Ford's Presidency Miss Rand and Frank attended the state dinner for the Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser. Miss Rand had also attended Alan Greenspan's swearing in as Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors. Mr Fraser was of fan of Atlas. I have no idea what has become of Mr Fraser.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Kat asked for the names of those present at the

Epistemology Workshops. Here's what I have.

Quoted participants:

A - Harry Binswanger

B - Allan Gotthelf

C - Nick Bykovetz

D - John O. (?) Nelson

E - Leonard Peikoff

F - George Walsh

G - Fred Weiss

H - Mike Berliner

I - Gary Lockman

J - John Allen

K - Al Jakira

L - Tony Plasil

M - Larry (Laurence) Gould

Also listed as auditors who aren't recorded

as having said anything in the edited volume:

Erich Veyhl

Robert Hartford

And as guests:

Allan Blumenthal

Joan Blumenthal

Erika Holzer

Henry Holzer

Frank O'Connor

The identities of A - E have been agreed on by three sources: Larry, George Walsh -- in a phone conversation between him and Larry June 16, 1990 -- and someone I know who saw sections of the original transcripts, and the list of participants, at the archives.

M is of course attested to by himself; Larry forgot to write down when he was talking with George which one George was, but figured out that George was F.

Some of the other names George and Larry had remembered but didn't know which letters they were. Others both had forgotten.

Some of the people weren't present for all of the workshops. I don't have a breakdown by attendance. Larry wasn't there for the first one. He's not sure without digging out his notes (which are in a storage place difficult to access) whether he started attending at the 2nd or 3rd gathering.

According to Leonard Peikoff's "Foreward to the Second Edition" (copyrighted 1990 by Estate of Ayn Rand) there were a total of "four workshops [...] between 1969 and 1971." I don't have the exact dates immediately to hand.

Peikoff writes in the Introduction:

"The workshops were opportunities for a dozen professionals in philosophy, plus a few in physics and mathematics, to ask Miss Rand questions about her theory of concepts, which had first appeared in print in her own magazine, The Objectivist, in 1966-67."

The abbreviation "Prof." used for all quoted participants (except AR, who's abbreviated as "AR") I supposed can be interpreted as an abbreviation of "professional" rather than of "Professor." Only a few of the participants would have properly qualified for the title "professor" at the time. The majority were qraduate students; a couple were undergrads.

Fred Weiss has been raising doubts on the re-activated Rage thread on SOLO as to (a) whether he was a participant at all; and if so (b ) if he was "G." Short of his outright denying that he did participate and was "G," I'll proceed on the belief, as I told him on SOLO, "that my source copied the initials correctly and that the archival records are correct."

Ellen

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(Note from MSK: Some name spellings were corrected as per request here and here.)

[Kat]

Thanks so much for that list, Ellen. This is wonderful. I think that you just solved one of the big mysteries of Objectivism. Some of the names are very familiar and many are not. I'd like to see how these people connect to the others in the family tree.

Thanks again and have a wonderful trip!

Kat

[Rodney]

I can confirm Erich Veyhl was present.

[Robert Campbell]

Ellen,

Thank you for the list.

Erich Veyhl (correct spelling) was the editor of Ergo during most of the period that I worked on that newspaper. He was working on a Ph. D. in Applied Mathematics at the time.

Nick Bykovetz was a friend of Veyhl's who contributed several articles to Ergo under pseudonyms. Just why he felt a need to do this I don't know, but his authorship was an open secret among the staffers (I recall one of his articles coming in and being attributed to the "Ukrainian horse"). Bykovetz was working on his Ph. D. in Physics.

Robert Campbell

PS. Why would Fred Weiss raise doubts about being quoted in the transcripts?

[Rodney]

Erich Veyhl (correct spelling)

That's what I get for cutting and pasting from a forum posting! I did have access to the correct spelling, but was too lazy.

[howardahood]

I just ran across this old thread and wanted to contribute.

Harry Binswanger and I and a number of other people took NBI courses at Robert Efron's house in the Boston area in the early 1960s. A number of us were students at Harvard (me) and MIT (Harry). When we moved to NYC to continue our educations, we had many contacts with Objectivists, took courses, and attended NBI events. I was in NYC 1965-68. Harry and I were going to be roommates in Manhattan but we never found a suitable apartment and we lived in different places. Harry and I were both "true believers." I became a critical or reformed Objectivist in the late 1980's; Harry continued to be an unquestioning apostle and now makes money from junior league true believers. Enough for now.

Howard Hood

Nashville, TN

Ellen: "I'm not sure, though, just how early Harry enlisted, as it were. Barbara, does he go all the way back to the first course? Or to one of the earliest ones? And I don't know when Peter Schwartz converted to Objectivism (I've heard tell -- do you know, Barbara, if this is accurate or if it's "O'ist urban legend"? -- that he was formerly an orthodox rabi)."

I don't recall exactly when Binswanger first began taking NBI courses, but it was sometime in the early sixties. He didn't take the first course. As for Schwartz, I've never met him, so I don't believe he ever took NBI courses, at least not in New York.

I've heard that Schwartz once was a rabbinical student, but I don't know if he ever officially became a rabbi, orthodox or otherwise. However, he did of course become an orthodox Objectivist.

Barbara