Objectivist NOT living

[xaithra]

My husband, my best friend, my soul-mate... we share the philosophy, principals, blood and flesh, ideas, love for science, art, knowledge, truth... we shared problems and pain... passion for life... but not anymore!!!

He tried to take his life last Monday and has ended up in the deep coma. He may die; he may survive with a brain damage... His ex-wife (new born Christian) has done everything to separate him from his children... She used the systems, lies, deception and fallacy... He could see them only if he makes sacrifice, give in to any demand of those mystics. Otherwise he had to face constantly opened wound, inability to work, to make money, dependence and excruciating pain. Life is not worth living.

He said to me that he is happy to go, because I exist. Otherwise he would very troubled thinking that he is the only person who is committed to a reason and logic that much.

But now I am troubled... I have no one to share my values, standards, goals.. I am in pain.. I feel hollow and alone. I started to doubt if I am living right...Yes we do not make sacrifice... And I could not force him to live and suffer for my comfort... But what do I do now?.. How will I live my life now without my half?

[Brant Gaede]

My husband, my best friend, my soul-mate... we share the philosophy, principals, blood and flesh, ideas, love for science, art, knowledge, truth... we shared problems and pain... passion for life... but not anymore!!!

He tried to take his life last Monday and has ended up in the deep coma. He may die; he may survive with a brain damage... His ex-wife (new born Christian) has done everything to separate him from his children... She used the systems, lies, deception and fallacy... He could see them only if he makes sacrifice, give in to any demand of those mystics. Otherwise he had to face constantly opened wound, inability to work, to make money, dependence and excruciating pain. Life is not worth living.

He said to me that he is happy to go, because I exist. Otherwise he would very troubled thinking that he is the only person who is committed to a reason and logic that much.

But now I am troubled... I have no one to share my values, standards, goals.. I am in pain.. I feel hollow and alone. I started to doubt if I am living right...Yes we do not make sacrifice... And I could not force him to live and suffer for my comfort... But what do I do now?.. How will I live my life now without my half?

I'm sorry to say this, but you have to wait. Where you are waiting is a terrible place but that is all there is to do now.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Please do not misunderstand my previous post. You need a good friend to be with and talk to.

--Brant

[xaithra]

Please do not misunderstand my previous post. You need a good friend to be with and talk to.

--Brant

I understand and I do wait... I wait for him to wake up or to die. But you are right. this is a terrible place. Dark and cold.

Everybody from his family now attacks me with a prayers and they all blame him for being selfish.... "Look - they say - here is where your false virtue takes you! He would never have left you like this if he really loved you. Unconditionally and selflessly"

[algernonsidney]

I understand and I do wait... I wait for him to wake up or to die. But you are right. this is a terrible place. Dark and cold.

Everybody from his family now attacks me with a prayers and they all blame him for being selfish.... "Look - they say - here is where your false virtue takes you! He would never have left you like this if he really loved you. Unconditionally and selflessly"

The self-righteousness about suicide always amazes me. A man has so little pleasure in life that he would prefer to die. In a way, he is saying that life is too prescious to waste on a life of unhappiness. Some people can't resist the temptation to judge. It makes them feel better to judge him.

You have just touched on the biggest reason for not attempting suicide--it might fail. A failed attempt can leave you worse off than before.

You probably have no idea why he did do it. You can only speculate, and he can not tell you if your speculations are right or wrong.

Considering how much Rand talked about the question of life or death, one also has to wonder if she ever thought about suicide. Considering that death is also inevitable, one also has to wonder if life truly is a rational choice. It seems to me that perhaps it is more rational to choose how one might die. Will you die on your terms? Or will you die on someone else's terms?

Christianity, of course, does not celebrate life on Earth. It celebrates suffering on Earth and living a life of virtue so one can eventually enter the gates of heaven. I once remember a nun telling my class in the third grade that she wished she had died as a little baby--she would have gotten into "god's kingdom" without question.

It actually amazes how long it took me to leave the church. I was 23 when I finally gave it up.

Please find a local group in your area. You need one. It's a lot better than an Internet forum. You will meet real people.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Chris Baker

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

tnelavoc,

I don't know what to tell you or say at this moment from the little you have mentioned. But I do know you are lost and in pain. That much is clear.

Sometimes I feel it is a shame Objectivism does not have an equivalent for prayer. This is such a moment because that is exactly what I wish I could extend to you.

I don't know you and I have no connection to your pain and bewilderment and resentment right now other than what you have written, but I feel it. I wish in the bottom of my soul that you—tnelavoc—did not have to go through this.

Your beloved sounds like a very good man.

As to the blame game, it is so little and petty in the face of what is left. Don't you think so?

My instinct is screaming at me right now, so I will go with it. I advise you to tell those who point the finger at you to go on their way in peace. Just move on and let you be. You do not have time for their feelings one way or the other. It's OK to build a wall of silence between you and them if you have to cross their paths, say, at the hospital. You have your own grief to contend with.

Then let your grief run its course. It will end after a while, but it has to run its course. Surround yourself with nonjudgmental people who will let you cry and be all right with that. You can even find professional grief counselors if you seek them.

I wish you well and I hope your beloved survives.

Michael

[xaithra]

Some people can't resist the temptation to judge. It makes them feel better to judge him....

You probably have no idea why he did do it....

Please find a local group in your area. You need one. It's a lot better than an Internet forum. You will meet real people.

I know why he did it. He was depressed and could not live without his kids. He has left a message. He was a devoted father. some men in this situation manage to adapt, to move on and perhaps that would have happened to him in time, but he just could not take it any more.

What botheres me is... Being rationally selfish person you can love a woman so much for your own sake and for hers. He said to me once that I am a true value to gain and to keep. How one can leave this value behind knowing that she will suffer and will be tormented by mystics without him???

And how do I find a local group??? I really need a living person to be by my side, but I do not know even where to start...

Surround yourself with nonjudgmental people who will let you cry and be all right with that.

but what about "judge and prepare to be judged"? how can I live facts aside... I have this need now to get an answer!!!

Please some one... Judge him (and me) for the sake of true!!!! He would have appreciate it... I cannot take unreasonable judgement of mystics who keep saying that they don't judge but they do... on the most fallacious way. I need people like us to tell me:

Was he right or wrong to do that?

Did I do the right thing trying to safe him?

What do I do now?

What do I tell him if he waikes up and tries again?

How can I live happily with principals of objectivism that left my man no other choice, no other way?

Why did not he mind to let me suffer?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

tnelavoc,

I did not mean do not judge ever. I meant try to find people who will not point the finger at you and blame you for what another person did.

Grieving time is not a good time for "judge and prepare to be judged." You are not on stage for others to issue opinions. You are not going through this ordeal for that. You are suffering something real, intensely painful and very personal and you appear to be very confused about why you are going through this.

In moral terms, your husband is responsible for what he did and no one else is. Not you. Not the mystics. Not God. Not Objectivism. Not his children. Your husband is responsible. He made the choice and he acted on that choice. He had other choices available.

In psychological terms, from what you wrote he was in great despair. This explains something but it does not make the suicide anyone's fault. If the line was crossed because of psychological suffering, it was illness, not morality. But even in the illness, he made choices and those were only his to make.

You need to find out what this all means to you and what you are going to do about it. I suggest letting the pain and grief run first so you can think more clearly later. It's OK to feel hurt. It's OK to feel lost right now. It gets better later. And, since I see a hint of the following, if you are full of rage at him for doing this because he did not choose you on a life-and-death level, it's OK to feel that. Let it happen. You can act later and even change your mind later.

You asked what you should do if he wakes up. My suggestion is to look inside yourself and see if you still love him. If you do, let him know that. Let him know you are with him through thick and thin and urge him to seek therapy (and make sure he does).

If the love cracked and cannot be fixed, let it hurt and move on. On the extreme life-death level, he did not choose to be with you as a primary value. He chose to check out. That's a fact and, irrespective of any other detail, it should not be ignored in something this important.

In the end, it's your life and your values, not my "shoulds" (or those of anyone).

You are still in my thoughts and I hope you find some peace of mind soon somehow.

Michael

[xaithra]

I love this man.

I want to take care of him even if he will not be able to communicate at all...

But would it be selfless? Whould it be a sacrifice?

[sbeaulieu]

But would it be selfless? Whould it be a sacrifice?

Not if you love him, value him. That is your choice in the end. I truly feel for you in what must be the most difficult time in your life. I cannot even begin to imagine how I would feel, act, or respond in the same situation.

I think Michael is on to something with the grieving. Once your emotions have had a chance to run their course, the answer might be clearer than you think. Again, that will be your choice.

~ Shane

[xaithra]

But would it be selfless? Whould it be a sacrifice?

Not if you love him, value him. That is your choice in the end. I truly feel for you in what must be the most difficult time in your life. I cannot even begin to imagine how I would feel, act, or respond in the same situation.

I think Michael it on to something with the grieving. Once your emotions have had a chance to run their course, the answer might be clearer than you think. Again, that will be your choice.

~ Shane

Thank you all

I am not allowing any grieving to myself right now.

I am holding on, working, but if he will die, then it will be my time I suppouse. I may break earlier I don't know. sometime I feel a wave of selfpity and despare. I know that he would want me to be strong and brave... But I am afraid to give in to my greiving... Will I be able to function? I am afraid to be dependant... I am terrified to face my lonely days... years of pain.

I want him back... Is it a whim?

back from the hospital by the way... no change.

Edited October 12, 2008 by tnelavoc

[Kat]

It is in times like these most people turn to their family or their church for comfort. Unfortunately, when you are an atheist, that may not always be the wise thing to do, especially when other are hostile towards your values. Sometimes you have no one else but yourself to rely on for strength. Just remember that what he did was his choice, not yours or anyone else's and you may need to make a conscious effort not to blame yourself.

I realize how hard this is because I lost my best friend a couple of years ago to an overdose. A couple months prior I had shut her out of my life and told her to call me after she decides to get help. That never happened and I found out a few months later that she was gone. I fight a constant battle with myself because I walked away when she needed me, but after being in an alcoholic marriage for 10 years, I had to. It is still painful writing about this years later and I don't think I will ever be able to find a new best friend to replace her. Having Michael and my kids helps a lot and alleviates some of the loneliness.

When you lose someone who you are very close to, it takes a long time to heal. If you have a friend or therapist who you feel comfortable with, please talk to them, if even to open up and explore your own feelings. One hard lesson I learned from being around people who are struggling with addictions, depression or other mental illnesses is that no matter how rational they may be most of the time, their rationality can be short-circuited and there is nothing that anyone on the outside can do to stop them from self-destructing if that is what they are hell-bent on doing. You have to stay strong and do what is in your best self-interest. Time will help heal so give yourself plenty of time so you can think clearly when you have to make the really hard choices.

Take care of yourself and stay strong.

Kat

[Barbara Branden]

tnelavoc "What botheres me is... Being rationally selfish person you can love a woman so much for your own sake and for hers. He said to me once that I am a true value to gain and to keep. How one can leave this value behind knowing that she will suffer and will be tormented by mystics without him???"

This has to be a terrible source of pain. Why were you not enough of a reason to live? Michael said something very important about this: "In psychological terms, from what you wrote he was in great despair. This explains something but it does not make the suicide anyone's fault. If the line was crossed because of psychological suffering, it was illness, not morality."

It may very well have been illness that caused his suicide, rather than a weighing of the values in his life. Most people who commit suicide are suffering from a profound clinical depression, which at least in part is a result of chemical imbalances in the brain. In that state, the person is not able to think rationally, he is not able to weigh alternatives or to consider what values still remain in his life; he knows only that his pain is unendurable and that he must escape it. Please do not see this as his rejection of you, but rather as his sick brain's rebellion against a pain he had no way to cope with. And it was certainly not your fault or failure, it was no one's fault or failure.

Over the years, I have seen many people who were on the verge of suicide, but who received treatment for depression, emerge from the dark and hopeless place they were in, to once again embrace life. If he recovers, the one thing you can do for your husband is to see that he goes to the best psychiatrist you can find and is treated for his depression.

Barbara

[algernonsidney]

I know why he did it. He was depressed and could not live without his kids. He has left a message. He was a devoted father. some men in this situation manage to adapt, to move on and perhaps that would have happened to him in time, but he just could not take it any more.

There are some very dark places inside a man's soul. Often we don't even let the women we love see these places. Sometimes we men wish that these dark places would simply go away. The point is that we sometimes keep them to ourselves. That's what I mean when I say that you can never know all the reasons why he did it.

What botheres me is... Being rationally selfish person you can love a woman so much for your own sake and for hers. He said to me once that I am a true value to gain and to keep. How one can leave this value behind knowing that she will suffer and will be tormented by mystics without him?

He may not be able to see things that seem obvious to you. He may not be able to take pleasure in some of the good things he has or had in his life. Just how seeing how absolutely adorable you are, I certainly can't understand why he did it.

And how do I find a local group??? I really need a living person to be by my side, but I do not know even where to start.

You may have trouble if you are in the middle of nowhere. I recommend something like "survivors of suicide" or something like that. Try meetup. Ask people at the hospital. Call a crisis hotline and see if they know of someone. Unfortunately, some of these are church-based. You need real people that you can hug.

but what about "judge and prepare to be judged"? how can I live facts aside... I have this need now to get an answer!

What is the point in judging people? Judgments are made in minutes. People are lifetimes.

[xaithra]

What is the point in judging people? Judgments are made in minutes. People are lifetimes.

I cannot believe I hear this on the Objectivist forum.....!!!!!

And... My husband did allow me to see the darkest places of him... He even asked me to illustrate it. I have made a drawing that represents his feeling... and it is dark. I wonder if I can post pictures here..?

[xaithra]

It may very well have been illness that caused his suicide, rather than a weighing of the values in his life. Most people who commit suicide are suffering from a profound clinical depression, which at least in part is a result of chemical imbalances in the brain. In that state, the person is not able to think rationally, he is not able to weigh alternatives or to consider what values still remain in his life; he knows only that his pain is unendurable and that he must escape it. Please do not see this as his rejection of you, but rather as his sick brain's rebellion against a pain he had no way to cope with. And it was certainly not your fault or failure, it was no one's fault or failure.

He was diagnosed and he stopped taking tablets just a two days prior to the act... He said he need to think clear... And he is not a man who would let anybody to force anything on him. I did not know he have done that

[algernonsidney]

I cannot believe I hear this on the Objectivist forum.

That depends on what you mean by Objectivist. If you mean a person who simply parrots Rand, then I do not fit that definition. Now that Rand is dead, it can also mean parroting whatever Peikoff says. It can also mean practicing social metaphysics and simply going along with the group.

My definition is that an Objectivist is an independent thinker.

[Mikee]

Baker,

You are certainly not an objectivist of any kind, given you lack a perceptible value system and the capacity for reason. Your only function is the harassment of anyone who takes anything seriously and bragging about the women you've raped using your NLP techniques. You were rightly moderated on another website, would you simply take the hint and keep your mouth shut? You are an individualist the same way a rabid dog is an individualist.

Very Sincerely,

Mike Erickson

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

(sigh)

I marvel that this woman's pain is used as an opportunity to pamphlet out partisan lines or further personal spats.

I know it's not very Objectivist to say this, but have a heart, guys. Have just a little bit of a heart and take this stuff elsewhere, at least to another thread.

By your own behavior, there's something critically important to another that does not concern or interest you on this thread.

tnelavoc, my apologies.

You certainly may post pictures here. If you have difficulty with the technical part, please let me know and I will send you instructions.

Michael

[xaithra]

My husband and I always loved a good debate hard not to join... but yes I am surprised a bit myself

My definition is that an Objectivist is an independent thinker.

Sounds more like subjectivist

never mind

By my definition Objectivist is the person who lives by the principals of well-defined phylosophy Objectivism and its ethical position. He makes reasonable choices according to this principals and does not allow "moral greyness" to break his integrity.

Going back to the hospital.

He was not going too well last night.

Thank you for your support, guys

Edited October 14, 2008 by tnelavoc

[xaithra]

He is not doing well at all.

No body hear me but inside I scream on the top of my voice... I am realistic person and mostly reasonable, preparing myself for the worse... but now I am clinging on that tiny chance that doctors are still giving me. A microscopic fraction of the hope... If he makes it I am ready to believe in miracle or god or what ever... In my desperate desire to have him back...

Am I loosing it... Does rationality has a limit when it comes to a hope for no reason?????

[Brant Gaede]

He is not doing well at all.

No body hear me but inside I scream on the top of my voice... I am realistic person and mostly reasonable, preparing myself for the worse... but now I am clinging on that tiny chance that doctors are still giving me. A microscopic fraction of the hope... If he makes it I am ready to believe in miracle or god or what ever... In my desperate desire to have him back...

Am I loosing it... Does rationality has a limit when it comes to a hope for no reason?????

Don't worry about the "rationality." Just keep putting one foot in front of the other as best you can.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

tnelavoc,

I hope he survives. That is in my heart for you.

Michael

[xaithra]

8 day in the coma with no progress in responses - is a bad news.

Doctor said he will be most likely damaged for life... May be even unable to move at all.

The chance for him to have any reasonable life is close to nothing.

I am making myself angry with him to stay calm and focused... but afraid to break any minute.

I need to believe that there are other people like him... like myself... That I am not alone.

I need a friend who lives the true life of the objectivist. 100 percent like we have...

[algernonsidney]

It sounds like conventional medicine is not producing the kind of results you want. Are you open to trying something "unconventional"? Please let us know where you are? One of my big heroes is in Northern California right now. She'll try to heal anybody. If anybody can get your man back, she can.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Chris Baker