The Miracle, at 60

[bmacwilliam]

Before you I thought all racism was negative. Now it's positive/negative???!!!

--Brant

Of course it is, and I have explained exactly why that is so.

Racism is based on prejudice.

" Prejudice: Any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. "

If you cannot understand why these "positive" feelings are not a good thing, then it's you who needs to reflect on the concept of racism.

Bob

[bmacwilliam]

Bob K,

I approved your post on this topic with misgivings. Bob M is already bad enough seeing racists under the bed and in between the blades of grass. I don't need a flame war here with two overly-biased people taking this to the gutter.

(btw - Are you going to behave? I want to remove the restriction. I think you are a man of honor, so I will take you at your word.)

Michael

Who's starting a flame war? That would be you. Maybe you should spend a little time actually discussing what you feel is wrong about what I'm saying instead of just insults?

" I think you are a man of honor" Hahahahahaha. It's more than a little obvious you need to 'think' a little harder about a lot of things.

Bob

[Mike11]

Oy vey.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Racism is based on prejudice.

" Prejudice: Any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. "

Bob,

Do you mean something like this?

The Wonderful Way Shmurak Faces Emotion

Please explain how toddlers become racists in your view. Their entire world is nothing but "preconceived opinions or feelings, either favorable or unfavorable."

Experience is added to that.

So, by your definition, you think all toddlers are prejudiced?

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Before you I thought all racism was negative. Now it's positive/negative???!!!

--Brant

Of course it is, and I have explained exactly why that is so.

Racism is based on prejudice.

" Prejudice: Any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. "

If you cannot understand why these "positive" feelings are not a good thing, then it's you who needs to reflect on the concept of racism.

Bob

Okay, now, let's see, I developed positive feelings about my (sainted) Mother when I was very young. Now as an adult I see a mother and child and feel positive emotions right off the bat that's a form of collectivim and racism. Now I have not good feelings but actually bad ones. My good feelings are really wolves in sheep clothing! I'm some kind of a collectivist with feelings as proof even though that mother then starts slapping the kid around and I feel anger?!

Oh, lordy! Please don't let my words rise up out of Bob's computer screen and attack his cognitive processes!

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Bob: "Racism is based on prejudice." But prejudice is not racism. I'm very prejudiced about a lot of things and people that do them.

--Brant

[bmacwilliam]

Before you I thought all racism was negative. Now it's positive/negative???!!!

--Brant

Of course it is, and I have explained exactly why that is so.

Racism is based on prejudice.

" Prejudice: Any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. "

If you cannot understand why these "positive" feelings are not a good thing, then it's you who needs to reflect on the concept of racism.

Bob

Okay, now, let's see, I developed positive feelings about my (sainted) Mother when I was very young. Now as an adult I see a mother and child and feel positive emotions right off the bat that's a form of collectivim and racism. Now I have not good feelings but actually bad ones. My good feelings are really wolves in sheep clothing! I'm some kind of a collectivist with feelings as proof even though that mother then starts slapping the kid around and I feel anger?!

Oh, lordy! Please don't let my words rise up out of Bob's computer screen and attack his cognitive processes!

--Brant

Missing the point entirely. Developing positive feelings is not the problem. Just saw your last post.

"Bob: "Racism is based on prejudice." But prejudice is not racism."

That is correct.

Bob

[bmacwilliam]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Rand's definition is a perfect illustration of how smart people can get these ideas so screwed up.

"Ayn Rand: "It [racism] is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man's genetic lineage—the notion that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors."

The truth is of course that many or even most of the traits are indeed 'produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry' and Rand was wrong. But that misses the point that for most traits like intelligence for example, do INDEED have weak racial and strong genetic factors, BUT, the intRA-race variability is vastly greater than the intER race variability and that's why a race-based PRE-judgment, a prejudice, is irrational.

That's the key point of why racism is fundamentally wrong.

____________________________________________

I added the bolded text the second time - should have been added the first time.

Bob

Edited May 26, 2008 by Bob_Mac

[Brant Gaede]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Bob, are you a racist, if only at times?

--Brant

[bmacwilliam]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Bob, are you a racist, if only at times?

--Brant

I am most certainly not entirely free of racism. Is anyone? I try very hard not to be, but the first step to fighting it is recognition. Most people, it seems don't even get that far.

Bob

[Brant Gaede]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Bob, are you a racist, if only at times?

--Brant

I am most certainly not entirely free of racism. Is anyone? I try very hard not to be, but the first step to fighting it is recognition. Most people, it seems don't even get that far.

Well, there isn't anywhere else to go with this. If you didn't beg my question you think everybody, except maybe babies or the brain damaged, is a racist.

--Brant

[bmacwilliam]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Bob, are you a racist, if only at times?

--Brant

I am most certainly not entirely free of racism. Is anyone? I try very hard not to be, but the first step to fighting it is recognition. Most people, it seems don't even get that far.

Well, there isn't anywhere else to go with this. If you didn't beg my question you think everybody, except maybe babies or the brain damaged, is a racist.

--Brant

That's like calling everybody that's ever had a drop of alcohol an alcoholic. Are teatotallers the only people allowed to talk about alcoholism? Are we to pretend that we can't discuss the dangers of drugs because everyone that has ever had an aspirin is a junkie and only babies are not? I don't follow your reasoning.

Bob

[Brant Gaede]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Bob, are you a racist, if only at times?

--Brant

I am most certainly not entirely free of racism. Is anyone? I try very hard not to be, but the first step to fighting it is recognition. Most people, it seems don't even get that far.

Well, there isn't anywhere else to go with this. If you didn't beg my question you think everybody, except maybe babies or the brain damaged, is a racist.

--Brant

That's like calling everybody that's ever had a drop of alcohol an alcoholic. Are teatotallers the only people allowed to talk about alcoholism? Are we to pretend that we can't discuss the dangers of drugs because everyone that has ever had an aspirin is a junkie and only babies are not? I don't follow your reasoning.

Just what am I to do with my "racist" but generally benevolent views and feelings towards Jews? Chase them down and play "whack a mole"? You talk as if as a matter of hygene I should somehow get rid of them--that that'd make me a better person. If I meet a Nazi am I also supposed to scrub away my very bad feelings toward him until I learn that he's actually part or not a part of a plot to assassinate Hitler? What am I to do with my basically positive mind set for people generally? Am I to put such concomitant feelings aside until I can evaluate them individually? Then there are my collectivist, racist feelings against the men from Mars in Mars Attacks! I couldn't wait for Willie Nelson to start singing "Only you ... " and watch all those Martian heads blow up inside those upside-down aquariums they were wearing.

If you suspect we are getting away from a serious discussion, you are right. You have so denatured "racism" as to make it a worthless concept beyond parlor talk.

--Brant

Edited May 26, 2008 by Brant Gaede

[bmacwilliam]

Brant, here's a copy of my post 53 where I think, at least, I've explained my position on this.

In a nutshell, racism takes a specific prejudice (race-based), and applies it in an irrational manner, again either positive OR negative.

_______________________________________

A prejudice is a PRE-judgement, without the proper facts.

"2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

So, when one makes a conclusion based on race and applies it to the individual PRE-observation then it's racist. Sometimes this is benign, and at other times it's very damaging. This is certainly not a circular definition.

Bob, are you a racist, if only at times?

--Brant

I am most certainly not entirely free of racism. Is anyone? I try very hard not to be, but the first step to fighting it is recognition. Most people, it seems don't even get that far.

Well, there isn't anywhere else to go with this. If you didn't beg my question you think everybody, except maybe babies or the brain damaged, is a racist.

--Brant

That's like calling everybody that's ever had a drop of alcohol an alcoholic. Are teatotallers the only people allowed to talk about alcoholism? Are we to pretend that we can't discuss the dangers of drugs because everyone that has ever had an aspirin is a junkie and only babies are not? I don't follow your reasoning.

Just what am I to do with my "racist" but generally benevolent views and feelings towards Jews? Chase them down and play "whack a mole"? You talk as if as a matter of hygene I should somehow get rid of them--that that'd make me a better person. If I meet a Nazi am I also supposed to scrub away my very bad feelings toward him until I learn that he's actually part or not a part of a plot to assassinate Hitler? What am I to do with my basically positive mind set for people generally? Am I to put such concomitant feelings aside until I can evaluate them individually? Then there are my collectivist, racist feelings against the men from Mars in Mars Attacks! I couldn't wait for Willie Nelson to start singing "Only you ... " and watch all those Martian heads blow up inside those upside-down aquariums they were wearing.

If you suspect we are getting away from a serious discussion, you are right. You have so denatured "racism" as to make it a worthless concept beyond parlor talk.

--Brant

First of all, Nazi is not a race, so c'mon now.

"You talk as if as a matter of hygene I should somehow get rid of them--that that'd make me a better person."

Yes, yes it would.

Would it be good for an immigration officer to have "generally benevolent views and feelings towards" Whites over others?

Or is just a bad thing for some other people and not you?

"What am I to do with my basically positive mind set for people generally? "

Nothing. Why should you?

"You have so denatured "racism" as to make it a worthless concept beyond parlor talk."

Well, you introduced space aliens, not me. Maybe you should try a coherent argument?

But anyway, that's a wild and incorrect accusation with no supporting argument at all. Are you saying that racism MUST be negative-only? If so, explain. Or not...

Bob

[Brant Gaede]

Bob,

Yes I think racism is strictly a negative concept. I think you are using "racism" instead of "prejudice." There can be positive prejudices. And is this the first time you've insinuated that racism can be positive? I thought your basic point was that it was a big, collectivistic negative.

--Brant

[bmacwilliam]

Bob,

Yes I think racism is strictly a negative concept. I think you are using "racism" instead of "prejudice." There can be positive prejudices. And is this the first time you've insinuated that racism can be positive? I thought your basic point was that it was a big, collectivistic negative.

--Brant

I guess I'm not clear. Positive and negatives getting mixed up. let me try again...

Prejudice based on race is racism. A positive prejudice based on race is still racism. It is my contention that this (racism) is never a good thing. I gave a few examples now of where a positive prejudice based on race might seem harmless on the surface, but is indeed not a good thing.

Not sure where 'collectivist' got thrown in there though.

Bob

Edited May 26, 2008 by Bob_Mac

[Brant Gaede]

Bob,

Yes I think racism is strictly a negative concept. I think you are using "racism" instead of "prejudice." There can be positive prejudices. And is this the first time you've insinuated that racism can be positive? I thought your basic point was that it was a big, collectivistic negative.

--Brant

I guess I'm not clear. Positive and negatives getting mixed up. let me try again...

Prejudice based on race is racism. A positive prejudice based on race is still racism. It is my contention that this (racism) is never a good thing. I gave a few examples now of where a positive prejudice based on race might seem harmless on the surface, but is indeed not a good thing.

Not sure where 'collectivist' got thrown in there though.

Bob

It was Rand's contention that racism was a crude form of collectivism.

I don't think you've ever acknowledged, much less acknowledged as legitimate, my point that on perceiving someone as Jewish, after a lifetime of experiences, I tend to start getting good feelings about that person, but that I don't stop there with evaluating that person--that the end result might be quite negative. I see absolutely no reason to embark on a personal crusade to rid myself of such initial feelings.

I've been eschewing racists and racism as long as I've been aware of them. Little did I know how rotten I was! Maybe I outta go to Montana and join up with Lamb and Lynx Gaede (no relation) and wear a little yellow Hitler smiling face on my chest!

--Brant