A fun night with Xian Zionists

[bmacwilliam]

I want to qualify a meaning in my last post.

Zionism is often perceived as Jewish bigotry. To a smaller number of people it also means simply supporter of Israel.

I support Israel and I want that to be clear to anyone who thinks otherwise.

I also loathe all bigotry.

I was using Zionism in the popular meaning of fanatic and bigot, not the less-used meaning of supporter of Israel.

I don't know how to unpack the racist undertones of the word "Zionist" in todays culture, so I use the word as it is normally used and expect the reader to understand the meaning from the context. If you say "fanatic" like I did as a preface, it takes a stretch to imagine I am talking about run-of-the-mill supporters of Israel who are not bigots.

My target for condemnation is racism and bigotry, whether Jewish or Muslim or any other form, not the Jewish culture or state.

Bigotry is evil and I do not think lines should be blurred to cover it up, wherever it may reside. As Rand said, in any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that gains.

Michael

I think the problem is Michael, that racial 'positivism' and racial 'negativism' (or what we'd normally call racism) are one and the same and inseparable. One cannot be pro white, black, or purple (meaning anything ethnic OR cultural) without being a racist. And until we fess up and realize this, racism will flourish.

Why is it so easy to see that being pro "white" is an ugly thing, but pro "jewish" is somehow just fine? The truth is, both are wrong for the exact same reason.

I think that supporting Israel in it's current form is clearly and objectively a racist position.

"I support Israel and I want that to be clear to anyone who thinks otherwise.

I also loathe all bigotry."

I think there's a contradiction there that needs to be resolved. One of those statements HAS to be false.

Bob

When I say I'm "pro-Jewish" I mean I'm against the physical destruction of Jews either in a Holocaust or by war against Israel. I mean I'm pro-intelligence, human ability and achievement. I also mean I'm pro-life and, qua culture, Jews are generally more pro-life here and now on this earth than any other ethnic group of people I know of. Culturally I'm Protestant at the core. Not Catholic, Jewish or anything else. I'm also an atheist. I can't change this and I certainly don't expect a Jew to be a non-Jew. It's too simple and simply wrong to say that such is collectivist/racist. Jews have been driven out of nearly all Middle Eastern countries. To support Israel means supporting a refuge for Jews from this continuing onslaught. This is not "positive" racism; in this context it's a reaction to the negative racism of Israel's enemies. Israel does have gross deficiencies from the human rights perspective, a generally extant problem for all countries. If Israel wasn't perpetually at war it would have the luxury of dealing with those. (I have not addressed US foreign policy.)

--Brant

Brant, you simply cannot have any type of ethnic or other boundaries whatsoever and not have racism. The boundaries, cultural, racial, whatever, when meaningful are, in my opinion, the critical characteristic of what racism is. I think it's a foolish fantasy to think ANY group will EVER treat another group as equals as long as the group distinction has any meaning.

The only solution is NOT to have these identifying boundaries. As we can accept a tall and a short person as equals, so must these other boundaries crumble to meaninglessness (ie offer no social advantage or disavantage). If you are a proud "insert ethnic group here" you are just as racist as the traditional bigot.

Read Dr. Suess's "The Sneetches" and you'll know all there is to know about racism. He got it right.

Bob

Edited May 16, 2008 by Bob_Mac

[william.scherk]

Personally, I'm in favor of a Jewish National Holiday, one day a year when their control of Wall Street, television, movies, music, book publishing, and politics would be suspended for 24 hours. Maybe that would wake people up, a day without Zionist propaganda -- blank TV screens.

[M]y remarks could be interpreted to mean that I dislike all Jews [ . . . ] not what I believe about Jewish control of the media.

Wolf, you are in favour of a Jewish National Holiday, a day without Zionist propaganda, on which day people would wake up.

In a world as complicated as this one, your comments are at best simpleminded.

A malevolent entity controls the organs of society! A sordid conspiracy runs the banking system to the detriment of freedom. Music that would enlighten and uplift the world is held back by a cartel of monstrous propagandists. The ugliness and horror of Jewish-controlled music sweeps the world -- just look at the insidious trajectory of rap music, and the Jewish country music, and the Jewish opera, chamber music and so on.

A book cannot be published that does not reflect the values of the Jews. Newspapers, magazines, journals, cable networks, internet sites (such as the Jew-controlled Google), all put forth the Jew perspective and the Jew perspective alone. Jews on Wall Street say where the money should go, and ensure that all transactions benefit the Jew.

Politics? Controlled by the Jews, of course. The electoral system, designed and overseen by Jews. The Electoral College, Jewish. Congress, Jewish. All state legislatures and other state bodies, in the hands of Jews.

Movies that do not celebrate and uphold Jewish values . . . unmade, unseen, untouchable. Television? Well, from the early morning children's shows to the late-night absercizer ads, written, produced, vetted and controlled by Jews.

It is a horror, Wolf, a world dominated by Jews wherever one looks. No doubt the Jews (and their lackeys, the homosexuals) have even more evil in store for us innocent non-Jews, we who have had our birthright stolen, and our freedoms curtailed.

Of course you want us to wake up, Wolf. If we don't, it can only get worse. Jews might get control of sports, and the weather.

For you, the only option is to shine the light of truth, I think. Since the Jews and homosexuals have worked against you and your ambitions your entire life, blighting your publishing career, watching you with their all-seeing eyes, curbing your forays into other fields, clipping your wings, taping your mouth, censoring your words . . . your very survival as a freeman depends on your efforts to resist the hegemony.

Notice, now, that the Jews have quietly sent one of their own to work against you here at OL. Yes, Barbara Branden, one of them. She has called for your light to be subject to the rheostat of Jewish thought control.

The end is nigh, Wolf!

[Mike11]

I find it ironic that Wolf's criticism seems completely in line with the Zionists themselves. Early Zionists claimed antisemitism was entirely justified and natural so long as Jews functioned in a way essentially parasitic and contradictory to the interests of their host societies. With Israel still dependent on aid from the Jewish community at large it must exert a sense of loyalty to itself at least as strong as the Jews feel to their host country. With the Jews in such a position any criticism of their divided loyalties can be shut down as "Antisemitism", thus rightfully infuriating Americans, Brits, Germans, Russians or anyone else native to a country containing an actively Zionist community. Israel also must make decisions detrimental to the interests of the host countries for its own survival as a colonial power.

Their critique, not mine. I disagree with the early Zionists on the importance and severity of the divided loyalties of diaspora communities but its Amusing as Hell to me that he's being labeled antisemitic for having such a colonial Labor Zionist view of Jewish/Gentile relations.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Mike11

[Brant Gaede]

Brant, you simply cannot have any type of ethnic or other boundaries whatsoever and not have racism. The boundaries, cultural, racial, whatever, when meaningful are, in my opinion, the critical characteristic of what racism is. I think it's a foolish fantasy to think ANY group will EVER treat another group as equals as long as the group distinction has any meaning.

The only solution is NOT to have these identifying boundaries. As we can accept a tall and a short person as equals, so must these other boundaries crumble to meaninglessness (ie offer no social advantage or disavantage). If you are a proud "insert ethnic group here" you are just as racist as the traditional bigot.

Read Dr. Suess's "The Sneetches" and you'll know all there is to know about racism. He got it right.

I am not a Jew, much less a Jew proud of being a Jew as many Jews are. (I'm also not a WASP proud of being a WASP.) I'm on the outside looking in. There are Jew racists and there are Jew not-racists. There are Jew collectivists and there are Jew not-collectivists.

I'm interested in ideas on how to make those "boundaries crumble."

--Brant

[Mike11]

Brant,

A rather uplifting process is occurring among Jewry in the Western World. They are intermarrying, assimilating, abandoning Hebrew, ambivalent of Der Judenstaat; increasingly Jew Qua Jews are worried that in the coming decades the Diaspora will be chipped down to nothing. At the same time large numbers of liberal Jews are leaving Israel as it turns more into a fanatic la la land indistinguishable from Hamas Gaza.

The Jewish identity is already crumbling, it needs no assistance.

[Wolf DeVoon]

"Wake people up?" Wolf says. And then have them do...what?

To question the agenda and cultural impact of broadcast television (CBS, CNN, ESPN, Fox in particular), movies, music (MTV in particular), comic books (Cartoon Network in particular), and popular literature.

Compare tthese comments with the statements in any openly anti-Semitic web site. Try Jewwatch.com, widely kmown as the most anti-Semitic of them all. Wolf is all but quoting them, and is in fact is outdoing them in many of his statements

Of all possible reactions, I certainly did not foresee being smeared by 'association' -- ?? -- or substitution, I should say. My previous posts cited Wikipedia, New York Times, Guardian, and Simple to Remember Judaism Online, not Jewwatch.com

W.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Wolf DeVoon

[Wolf DeVoon]

Since the Jews and homosexuals have worked against you and your ambitions your entire life, blighting your publishing career, watching you with their all-seeing eyes, curbing your forays into other fields, clipping your wings, taping your mouth, censoring your words . . .

Guilty as charged. "I am a media exile. My works don't have a hope in hell of publication. As far as I'm concerned, CBS is a 'predatory force' and their New York headquarters should be short-listed for a surgical strike. The society in which we live is neither democratic nor fair. Take away their Federal license to print money, and CBS falls tomorrow." (Defacto Anarchy)

your comments are at best simpleminded

Guilty as charged. "I am not a particularly learned man, nor particularly clever. My ideas about government were formed through hard experience and frequent battles with society. Frankly, I believe that better minds and abler writers should be doing this kind of work" (first three sentences of 'Human Rights,' first chapter of Laissez Faire Law, right up front plain as day.)

"I had hoped for a life like David Lean or Stanley Kubrick. In a pinch, I would have settled for Fred Zinneman. What I got instead was Wolf DeVoon, an isolated beatnik with a second-class brain, whose idea of a good time is a newspaper and a cup of coffee at Denny's." (Individualism)

You win, bub.

W.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Wolf DeVoon

[william.scherk]

"Wake people up?" Wolf says. And then have them do...what?

To question the agenda and cultural impact of broadcast television, movies, comic books, and popular literature.

Oh, baloney. To question the agenda and cultural impact of The Jews, rather. Which goes to the point -- we can closely question Israel, US Neo-cons, American policy, particulars of history, without edging into kook territory. Without the nasty line you put up here. I am asking you to disavow the obvious implication -- that all the negative cultural impact, and the noxious agenda of those medias 'controlled' by The Jews is due to the Jew.

Of all the possible reactions, I certainly did not foresee being smeared by 'association' -- ?? -- fabrication, I should say.

You must be joking.

You smear yourself when you call for a Day without the Jews. That is plain ugly and uncalled for. It reveals to me someone who doesn't give a shit about what he sounds like.

I cited Wikipedia and Judaism Online, not Jewwatch.com or any anti-Semitic source.

Your cite was meaningless in context. What you were invited to illustrate was your contention that The Jews control everything, as if one Jewish line was promulgated across the varied media, insidiously, inexorably, and that the only time we might wake up from this nightmare is if we turned the lights out on The Jews for a day . . .

. . . do you have no idea how offensive this is, and in how many ways it is offensive? Lights out on the Jews for a day, and then we will wake up to the ugliness they have imposed upon us.

Handsome is as handsome does, my man.

[Wolf DeVoon]

we can closely question Israel, US Neo-cons, American policy, particulars of history, without edging into kook territory. Without the nasty line you put up here. I am asking you to disavow the obvious implication -- that all the negative cultural impact, and the noxious agenda of those medias 'controlled' by The Jews is due to the Jew. You smear yourself when you call for a Day without the Jews. That is plain ugly and uncalled for. It reveals to me someone who doesn't give a shit about what he sounds like. . . do you have no idea how offensive this is, and in how many ways it is offensive? Lights out on the Jews for a day, and then we will wake up to the ugliness they have imposed upon us.

Hmm. I think you're right. Nobody would notice, except to complain that their TV was off.

Offensive to whom, by the way? Everybody on earth? You in particular? Right reason? Honestly, William, it doesn't make a bit of difference what I think or failed to think. If you banned Christians from TV for a day, we'd have fewer weather reports, local who-murdered-who and sports blather. Might be more upsetting than unplugging Jewish content.

One thing's for certain. If you unplugged the Federal Government for a day, nothing would change anywhere in the world, not even in Iraq.

[Wolf DeVoon]

One more thought, then I'm done. At this juncture I have to ask Why bother? No one listens to me, or if they do it's all horrible and offensive, or incoherent (on 'rights' theory, for instance). Probably inevitable it was revealed that I am extremely dissatisfied with American popular culture. No, that's too soft a word. Revulsed and worried as heck. That's why I've been an expat for decades, why my daughter is being raised overseas, as far as possible from the United States, a country that no longer exists.

For a long time I worried that the Republicans might declare martial law in the U.S. and suspend the November elections. Sounds foolish, I know. I'll believe it when I see it, that there won't be an October Surprise. I still find it implausible Obama will be elected President and end the war in Iraq. Martial law maybe, peace no way.

That's the problem with hippies. Just don't trust the System.

It's been swell.

[Brant Gaede]

One more thought, then I'm done. At this juncture I have to ask Why bother? No one listens to me, or if they do it's all horrible and offensive, or incoherent (on 'rights' theory, for instance). Probably inevitable it was revealed that I am extremely dissatisfied with American popular culture. No, that's too soft a word. Revulsed and worried as heck. That's why I've been an expat for decades, why my daughter is being raised overseas, as far as possible from the United States, a country that no longer exists.

For a long time I worried that the Republicans might declare martial law in the U.S. and suspend the November elections. Sounds foolish, I know. I'll believe it when I see it, that there won't be an October Surprise. I still find it implausible Obama will be elected President and end the war in Iraq. Martial law maybe, peace no way.

That's the problem with hippies. Just don't trust the System.

It's been swell.

Wolf,

I'd say you put too much emphasis on who listens to you--or not--and not enough on what you say.

--Brant