Iron Man

[Mike Renzulli]

I saw Iron Man last weekend and it is an AWESOME film! The special effects were great, the story line was very good and the it is paced well enough to keep your interest in the film.

I won't go into details about the plot but, overall, its a creator as hero epic that every Objectivist would love.

[fight4thefuture]

I saw Iron Man last weekend and it is an AWESOME film! The special effects were great, the story line was very good and the it is paced well enough to keep your interest in the film.

I won't go into details about the plot but, overall, its a creator as hero epic that every Objectivist would love.

Haven't seen Iron Man yet, but I saw Indiana Jones last night. It was doubly awesome. I would even say it's my new favorite.

Do you think that all of these superhero/hero epics reflect a positive trend for the culture? I've never seen so many cranked out before, but then again I'm pretty young.

[Mike11]

Someone is making sure all of Stan Lee's creations hit the silver screen before he leaves us.

I think the archetypes and myths of the Marvel Universe convey positive social values* The X-Men serve as a metaphor for the marginalized and persecuted (the homosexuality arc in X-Men 3 for example), Iron Man for morally responsible capitalism**, Doc Oc for the dangers of irresponsible science. Keep in mind Stan Lee was Jewish*** which means issues of cultural tolerance, ethical capitalism, the abuse of science and other social problems**** formed a major theme in his writing.

Not to mention the movies simply kick ass!

Things I am only going to say once:

* Those would be "Personal Values" for the reading impaired.

** Yes, there is irresponsible capitalism no matter how many Qua's are used in conversation

*** Blanket statement, yet oddly non racist

**** They exist, suck it up.

[Selene]

I so Iron Man on Mother's Day with my lady.

I thought it was a superior film. The rehab Robert Downey Jr.hit the role perfectly. Furthermore, Gweneth Paltrow is incredibly hot and an incredible actress. Thematically, the plot was about man's highest values including seeking truth.

Special effects were excellent as well as the sound track.

Additionally, Joel, the "capitalism 'qua'" arguments that you advance have some validity. However, if the choice were between free associations between men with the occasional "badness" effected by a capitalistic enterprise and the 99% "badness" effected every time government gets involved in anything, allows me the sane choice of picking freedom every damn time.

Adam

[bmacwilliam]

** Yes, there is irresponsible capitalism no matter how many Qua's are used in conversation

Totally agree.

Curious about your thoughts on tobacco companies.

Bob

[Selene]

** Yes, there is irresponsible capitalism no matter how many Qua's are used in conversation

Totally agree.

Curious about your thoughts on tobacco companies.

Bob

Bob:

Tobacco companies exist. Individuals voluntarily decide to use the potentially unhealthy/dangerous/deadly product. If they are addictive in personality, they are fully aware of where they can get help in deciding to change their addictive behavior.

The testimony, by the CEO's of the majors which admitted knowingly putting a dangerous/unhealthy/addictive product on the market and consciously and with intent to harm, lied about it, should have been prosecuted for just that crime.

Finally, all government subsidies to all private business should be immediately revoked.

I hope that that answers your question. I have been a smoker and a non-smoker at various times during my life and I have never changed my position above.

Adam

[bmacwilliam]

** Yes, there is irresponsible capitalism no matter how many Qua's are used in conversation

Totally agree.

Curious about your thoughts on tobacco companies.

Bob

The testimony, by the CEO's of the majors which admitted knowingly putting a dangerous/unhealthy/addictive product on the market and consciously and with intent to harm, lied about it, should have been prosecuted for just that crime.

Ok, so should the product still be legal now?

Bob

[Selene]

** Yes, there is irresponsible capitalism no matter how many Qua's are used in conversation

Totally agree.

Curious about your thoughts on tobacco companies.

Bob

The testimony, by the CEO's of the majors which admitted knowingly putting a dangerous/unhealthy/addictive product on the market and consciously and with intent to harm, lied about it, should have been prosecuted for just that crime.

Ok, so should the product still be legal now?

Bob

Yes. Just like rat poison, alcohol, cars, guns, private planes, crossbows, throwing knives and even the Democratic and Republican Parties.

The tobacco companies cannot legally represent that their product is safe to consume, just as a car company cannot advertise an Avanti [studebaker product that did 220 mph out of the showroom in the 60's] could not advertise that you could safely use their car at that speed in a school zone.

[emb021]

Someone is making sure all of Stan Lee's creations hit the silver screen before he leaves us.

"stan lee's creations"?

Gee, I guess Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Don Heck, Bill Everett and all the rest had nothing to do with the CO-creation of these characters...

[bmacwilliam]

** Yes, there is irresponsible capitalism no matter how many Qua's are used in conversation

Totally agree.

Curious about your thoughts on tobacco companies.

Bob

The testimony, by the CEO's of the majors which admitted knowingly putting a dangerous/unhealthy/addictive product on the market and consciously and with intent to harm, lied about it, should have been prosecuted for just that crime.

Ok, so should the product still be legal now?

Bob

Yes. Just like rat poison, alcohol, cars, guns, private planes, crossbows, throwing knives and even the Democratic and Republican Parties.

Tobacco is very different in a number of very important ways than that list of yours. It's obvious that you haven't given this much thought so I don't think a discussion is worthwhile. I'm more interested in Joel's thoughts on this but it doesn't seem he's around. Oh well.

Bob

[Selene]

Bob:

"It's obvious that you haven't given this much thought..."

Well it's great that you have such an open mind about the issue.

Adam

[bmacwilliam]

Bob:

"It's obvious that you haven't given this much thought..."

Well it's great that you have such an open mind about the issue.

Adam

Well I disagree. I think it's my mind that's open to the real issue of corporate irresponsibility vs free markets and why free markets are imperfect. I think it's my mind that's open to the very real differences between rat poison and tobacco. I think it's my mind that's clear about why harmful addictive drugs are a little different than private planes.

I suggest it's your mind that needs to open up and think a little more about reality and a little less about nonsensical far-right dogma.

Bob

[Selene]

Bob:

Ahh!

Thank you for showing me the proper path of independent thought. I was lost, but you have allowed my mind to be found.

A few questions since my "bad" thinking is going to be corrected, could you possible be charitable enough to define some of your clearly more erudite concepts and definitions?

1) "...corporate irresponsibility...";

2) "...free markets...";

3) "...far-right dogma...".

Enlighten me, please.

Adam

[Chris Grieb]

May I recommend William Klein's lectures titled "Business Ethics" at last year's TAS Summer Seminar. He has a great discussion of "corporate resposibilty".

[bmacwilliam]

Bob:

Ahh!

Thank you for showing me the proper path of independent thought. I was lost, but you have allowed my mind to be found.

A few questions since my "bad" thinking is going to be corrected, could you possible be charitable enough to define some of your clearly more erudite concepts and definitions?

1) "...corporate irresponsibility...";

2) "...free markets...";

3) "...far-right dogma...".

Enlighten me, please.

Adam

- There are no health benefits to smoking in any dose, only harm and it is highly addictive.

- This is an anti-life, irrational thing to do with all we now know.

- Only benefit from smoking is hedonic pleasure.

- Therefore smoking is clearly an immoral and irrational activity.

- Therefore making millions/billions of dollars based entirely on irrationality and immorality is by direct extension irrational and immoral.

Pretty simple...

Bob

Edited May 30, 2008 by Bob_Mac

[Selene]

Therefore, you would use the force of the state to prevent that business from existing?

[bmacwilliam]

Therefore, you would use the force of the state to prevent that business from existing?

Yes

[Brant Gaede]

Therefore, you would use the force of the state to prevent that business from existing?

Yes

Don't forget the automobile manufacturers!

--Brant

PS: Smoking helps some people read this stuff and not barf.

Smoking can help relieve symptoms of sycle cell anemia.

Smoking helps writers concentrate on the task at hand.

Smoking upsets Bob. Hooray!

[Alfonso Jones]

Therefore, you would use the force of the state to prevent that business from existing?

Yes

Welcome to the nanny state. That is where this chain of reasoning takes you.

Bill P (Alfonso)

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I'm just sitting back and wondering if Bob has any ideas on who should be in charge of such a government program.

Hmmmmm...

Here's an idea.

How about Bob?

Or one of his people?

Michael

[Alfonso Jones]

I'm just sitting back and wondering if Bob has any ideas on who should be in charge of such a government program.

Hmmmmm...

Here's an idea.

How about Bob?

Or one of his people?

Michael

The name "Mouch" comes to mind, for some reason.

Bill P (Alfonso)

[Roger Bissell]

I saw Iron Man last weekend and it is an AWESOME film! The special effects were great, the story line was very good and the it is paced well enough to keep your interest in the film.

I won't go into details about the plot but, overall, its a creator as hero epic that every Objectivist would love.

I don't know how your thread went so far astray, Mike, but I'll chime in on the movie "Iron Man." My wife, our 13 year old daughter, and I saw it Wednesday night, and we thoroughly enjoyed it. I agree with all of your comments.

REB

[bmacwilliam]

Therefore, you would use the force of the state to prevent that business from existing?

Yes

Welcome to the nanny state. That is where this chain of reasoning takes you.

Bill P (Alfonso)

Somehow ANY law that restricts freedom = nanny state?

Maybe moving this to another thread makes sense. A little off-track from Iron Man.

But let's see some reasoning. Let's see if you or anyone else can show that

1.) Smoking is not immoral

2.) Tobacco sales is not even more immoral and depraved

The second argument concerning legality is separate.

Bob

[Selene]

Bob: Ok.

Resolved that: Smoking tobacco, in any form, is moral.

Is this the proposition that you believe should be argued? I am granting that the "status quo" is that smoking is unhealthy, but not that it is immoral.

Therefore, it is time to define terms. For the purpose of debating the proposition, would you define moral.

Second, would you define immoral.

Third, define "smoking".

I believe the word tobacco is any leafed product that contains nicotine. However, would the word tobacco include marijuana?

Adam

[bmacwilliam]

PS: Smoking helps some people read this stuff and not barf.

Really now?

Smoking can help relieve symptoms of sycle cell anemia.

Are you drunk?

Smoking helps writers concentrate on the task at hand.

No, nicotine might though,

Smoking upsets Bob. Hooray!

No, but what amuses me is the razor-thin dedication to logic, truth and reality when politics get involved. According to Objectivism, life should be at the top of ones list of values, and hedonic pleasure should be at or near the bottom. Smoking is most definitely anti-Objectivist - should compare to initiation of force, or communism, but no....

It's very clear that smoking is a much greater threat to life than just about anything we could think of, but somehow it's evil to outlaw tobacco sales. Initiation of force is illegal, but tobacco sales is just fine? It's only logically coherent with a DIFFERENT value hierarchy, not with life at the top of the list.

Bob