Choosing to Remain Childless

[Fran]

I would really appreciate hearing from anyone who has made a personal choice to remain childless. I'm almost certain that I don't want children (I'm now 32 and have never wanted them). Whilst I know that no one can make this decision for me, I've had warnings from people who have children saying that I may change my mind, but I've never heard from anyone who chose not to have children (rather than couldn't) and is glad they made that decision. I'd particularly like to hear from women. If there is anybody who decided not to have children and now regrets it, I'd like to hear from them too, if it's something they would be willing to share, as I realise that this is probably painful for them?

I have a nephew and niece and friends who have children, so I wouldn't be completely isolated from them.

[Aaron]

Congratualtions. You are in the minority - and it seems the majority will try to convert you to wanting children. Although I relate somewhat to the joy of seeing someone learn, I've never thought it worth the downsides of having children and the personal sacrifice involved. I've certainly never felt the need to carry on the genes or a family name or live vicariously through someone that many child-bearers do either. This is by choice rather than nature. I'm 32 and have not doubted or ever had regrets about this decision.

The love of my life has a similar view, if anything more anti-child than myself. She had only a brief period at ~33-34 of the 'biological clock'. She recognized that as a purely hormonal effect that didn't change her assessment of kids when she really sat down to think about it. However, the pressure from the child-bearing to join them is, at least in the US, far worse for women than for men. The peer pressure she'd get at work though was tremendous - women bringing in their newborns to show off was commonplace, she'd be asked daily by different people when she'd be having children, etc. Saying she didn't want them was an invitation for open disdain, as if an indication something was wrong with her. She eventually found the only safe way to deflect such questions was to state anyway "We can't have them" (which most people treated with pity but would at least leave her alone then).

If you ever sincerely decide children would personally be worth it and you can support them and change your current decision, OK. Don't worry about the social pressure that your life isn't complete without them, etc. though. It's a personal decision and happiness doesn't require kids.

[Paul Mawdsley]

Fran,

Sorry, I’m not a woman, nor am I now someone who does not want children. Until I was 26 I didn’t want children and could not understand a purpose for marriage beyond social conformity. I rejected social conformity. At 26 my life came into focus on a holistic scale and I knew I wanted to start my own family. I knew raising children was an experience and challenge in life I did not want to miss. At 26 I made the conscious decision to build a life around these, and other, goals.

We are all different. Having children is not something that should be entered lightly. Unfortunately, evolution has not designed us in a way to stop us from entering such decisions lightly. I respect your approach to considering the possibility of having children. You are looking to increase the amount of information, the variety of perspectives, on the subject before making your decision. It is not about asking someone to tell you what you should do.

I have a friend who, like you, didn’t want kids until she was well into her 30s. She was career oriented and had an number of nieces and nephews. At about 36 she changed her point of view. She realized she had a deep yearning for the experience and the adventure of raising her own children. After 5 years of trying, she finally found out last fall that she cannot have children. She went into a depression for a time but is now becoming more herself again.

It is well worth your effort to ask these questions. You are trying to appreciate a perspective you are not going to have for a few years so you can make decisions now. I hope others who have more to say on this, from their own experience, have something to contribute. The key for me was realizing the experience, adventure, and challenge of having children was one thing my life would be incomplete without. It was a central desire to my being. What are the central desires of your being? Would you be willing to give any of that up for the commitment of raising children?

btw- I'm not really sorry I'm not a woman. No offence to women but I like being a man.

Paul

[Dragonfly]

I've never regretted my decision not to have children. On the contrary, if I consider the life of friends, acquaintances, neighbors etc. who have children, it only confirms to me that this is definitely not the thing for me. Now I've myself never felt any pressure from others implying that my life wouldn't be complete without children, but I've heard such stories from other people. If such people would insist, I'd just answer that I hate children, that should shut them up. I've also heard that often the argument is used: "you're selfish if you don't have children!" which is of course completely illogical if having children is so wonderful as they say, because that implies that having children is a not so pleasant duty (such people even seem to be offended by your decision, which is of course rather revealing psychologically). If people keep nagging at you, in my opinion the only remedy is to be blunt, and not trying to weasel out of it by inventing some excuses, such people are just obnoxious jerks who should be put in their place.

[Aaron]

*laugh* You'd think just saying that you don't like kids, hate kids, would be a bad father/mother, etc. would be enough to stop people badgering you. However, many people continue on with the shocked 'Why would you think that??' type prying.

[Dragonfly]

Oh, I think I could come up with some good reasons...(which they no doubt won't like!)

[Paul Mawdsley]

Aaron wrote:

*I've certainly never felt the need to carry on the genes or a family name or live vicariously through someone that many child-bearers do either.*

This had nothing to do with my decision to have kids. The motivation to have kids is multidimensional and deeper than any of these considerations. It is about contributing something positive to the world, adding something of value that is not dissimilar to creative and productive endeavors. It is about caring for and loving something so deeply it, in moments, consumes you. It is about reality testing your understanding of existence in a high stakes game. It is about opening yourself up to experiences that can challenge you to develop key elements of who you are. It is about pushing your limits of endurance only to find you have further limits than you ever imagined. It is about being the primary educational influence on another being, with all the responsibilities that entails. It is about testing the success of your own psychological development and testing your ability to be the primary external influence in another’s psychological development.

I think there is no other single endeavor that more challenges an individual’s character, resourcefulness, awareness, self-responsibility, and productiveness. Nor is there an endeavor where reality more confronts you with your mistakes and rewards your successes. The experience of raising children touches and challenges every part of your being. The challenge of conscious parenting is not for the weak willed, the psychologically unevolved, or the disinterested. NB says romantic love is not for adults who are psychologically children. It is for grown-ups. Parenting is also not for those who are psychologically children. It is for grown-ups. (This is not to suggest than if you choose not to have kids, you are not a grown-up. It may be the grown-up thing to do.)

*She had only a brief period at ~33-34 of the 'biological clock'. She recognized that as a purely hormonal effect that didn't change her assessment of kids when she really sat down to think about it.*

The “biological clock” is more than “purely hormonal.” There is also an element of one’s intuitive, yet possibly subconscious, understanding and motivational biases. I’m not a big fan of simply seeing oneself as being acted upon by chemicals. Psychology and causality are more complex than that.

I would not suggest that having children is for everyone. I just am trying to present my case for becoming a parent and enjoying the experience. Don’t “straw-man” the pro-parenting perspective. Whether or not having children is in one’s best interests is not a moral decision as such. It is an analytical one. The decision to bring the full range of your knowledge and awareness, and to go with or against your best judgement, is a moral one. Having children should be a decision made with full consciousness and objectivity. Whichever decision is reached, there is ultimately a time when you cannot change your mind. As a parent, there is no doubt I cannot turn back now, even if there are times when it would be nice not to have to be a parent. I would never give up what I have. I made the right choice for me.

Paul

[CNA]

Hi, Fran

It's a big decision to have kids or not. For me, I wasn't planning on having kids for a while. There were so many things I wanted to do before deciding to have a family. Plus, I'm very selfish. I know many women that do not have kids and they don't regret the decision they made. In fact, most seem extremely happy. They have the freedom to come and go whenever they want. Whereas, I know quite a few women that have had many kids due to pressure from family, etc., and they caved to that pressure. I was subjected to this as well from my husband's family mostly. They all have large families. And it was quite irritating that they wouldn't drop the subject after telling them I didn't want anymore kids. But once they realized they couldn't budge me towards their direction, they dropped it finally.

The women I do know that have large families, when talking with them about my decision to stay with just one child, I have actually found by watching them when talking about it, their unhappiness. They ask me why I decided to only have one child and I always tell them that I'm too selfish. There's too many things I want to do in MY LIFE that I wouldn't be able to do if I had 3 or 4 kids. With Two, I would probably be able to still do them but it would be more difficult. For me, I'm too much of a free spirit. I love to be able to come and go without having to worry about babysitters or dividing my time up.

Plus, their is a financial burden when you have many kids. For some, even just one can be too much financially. I know many, many many women that are single parents. Dad flaked out on them and they are miserable. I've talked to many and they all have come back with the answer, if I knew it was going to be like this, I wouldn't have had kids.

But I will say this, even though I'm selfish with MY TIME, I'm so happy I had Christopher when I did. He is my baby and it has been a joy to watch him grow, joy to watch him ask so many questions about life, joy to watch him form his own beliefs and opinions, joy to watch him make so many discoveries and to see the eagerness and adventure on his face.

Even though there are many things I still have planned, my goals, it's not a burden for me with one child. I find it funny because we are practically inseparable. I'm selfish and so is he. I know it would be WWIII in my house if I had another child. Chris loves to have mommy's time and there is no sharing with others. In fact, as he has gotten older and understanding more, we enjoy so much more; such as, getting in the car, windows rolled down, some good music going, both of us are free spirited, head down to the beach and we always have a blast. If his cousin Kala who is 9 is with us, it's so much more fun, all free spirited and a bunch of kids, including me !! Or the memories of dancing in the living room with Chris in my arms and he's just laughing and laughing with a huge smile on his face. We still dance sometimes in the living room. Too big to carry now but he does his thing. He will need some serious dancing lessons though as he gets older. LOL When I watch him dancing while I'm dancing, I just can't stop laughing because it's so cute.

So I will say this: I didn't want any kids for a while and Chris was an accident. But I DO NOT regret having him. He's been an absolute joy for me. Yeah, it is very difficult in the beginning, oh, boy, very difficult but it gets easier as they get older and they are so much fun, at least at this age he is. I'm sure when he gets older and more independent, his friends, I'm sure he'll say, mom, you're a dork or you embarrass me, etc.......LOL but that's okay. I'm expecting it.

But I will say this: I will not have anymore kids. One is more than enough for me and I DO NOT regret making that decision and making it permanent to not have anymore kids. For me, I'm so grateful for making that decision in a number of ways. Being a soon to be single mom, I won't have a problem with one child, you know, day care, being 100 percent financially responsible for him, etc. I'll be okay with one and still have extra money left over. But grateful I don't have 3 or 4 kids, that would be so difficult.

I've got my 1 baby and that is all I need. He is my baby and he has been an absolute JOY.

Good luck with the decision, Fran. It's not an easy one to make.

Angie

[Kat]

As much as I love my kids and children in general, parenting is not the type of responsibility I would suggest that another person take on unless they really, really, really wanted it. I find it extremely rude that busybodies would put pressure on others to have kids. If they like kids, they should have their own. If they are butting in with advice now, just wait till after the kid comes!

Why is it that hard for some people to respect the decision of others to remain childless? Having been a single parent for many years, I would never advise somebody else to have kids. Kids are wonderful, loving and a lot of fun, but they certainly aren't for everyone. If you are on a career fast-track, love to travel and go out a lot, and most of your friends are childless, having kids may not be a priority. Many people live full and happy lives without children. Some people simply do not want kids. The question should really be "why do you want kids?" not "Why don't you want kids?" The question should relate to change, not remaining childless.

If someone has been in a long-term relationship and still does not want kids by the time they are in their early or mid 30s they don't generally have a change of heart. I personally believe that the decision to remain childless is usually made before then, but if you try to get surgically fixed before the age of about 35, the doctors will try to talk you out of it and then it is the same lame "you'll regret it" argument all over again.

Like they say, "there are no unchosen obligations." Having kids is a pretty heavy choice. A choice I made when I was too young and dumb to realize that my ex was an alcoholic and I would end up raising the kids alone. Do I regret the choice to have kids? Not usually, but sometimes I do feel I have missed out on living my own life for my own sake. However, I know that in five years, I will be free to travel and do other things I've always wanted to do for me. These two kids are the best thing that ever happened to me. Tina and Sean are my pride and joy. Yes, I have struggled, but looking back, I haven't actually sacrificed too much, only postponed some things. I did manage to go back to school and graduate from college after my divorce. I am now engaged to a wonderful man that my kids adore, and we are all looking foward to our future together as a family.

Kat

[Dragonfly]

When in doubt, don't!

[Paul Mawdsley]

Dragonfly says:

When in doubt, don't!

Absolutely! And when you are unconscious of the realities, don't! But do try to discover what lies behind the doubt and do try to increase consciousness. Make a rational choice based on the realities of your own being and of the ramifications of your choice. I think that is what Fran is trying to do.

Paul

[jordanz]

I would really appreciate hearing from anyone who has made a personal choice to remain childless.

My wife and I decided at the outset not to have children. After 13 years, we're very happy with our decision. We have many reasons, but the one that still feels strongest is: lifestyle. We have a spontaneous lifestyle. We wake up on Saturday and decide to take a walk, go to breakfast, etc. at the spur of the moment. We also take many vacations each year. These would all be very difficult with children. I could list many other reasons if you're interested.

[Aaron]

I'd mentioned this discussion to my partner of eight years today, and she wanted to read it and respond. She's 37, childless by choice, and obviously pretty passionate about the topic. All writing below is hers.

----------------

I have heard this term "I was born to be a mother" over and over again by excited egg bearing females who somehow feel "completed" by spawning off a child. They tell me they were born to be mothers and if I don't have children that I will be missing something in life and will always regret it.

I didn't have children by choice and I have never regretted it.

The worst times for me were when co-workers would ask me why I didn't have children and then treat me as if I was less of a person because I didn't choose to have one plop out of me. It was a hormonal social club of sorts and not really about mothering at all.

I have seen "cute babies" but then I have also seen "cute critters" I wouldn't want living with me too. Baby pigs are cute, but I wouldn't want to birth them, hold them to my tit or in anyway share my body with them. Baby mice are cute, but same deal. Even if I wasn't sharing my body with them (the whole adoption argument) why would I want something that can't control its own bodily functions, was totally dependent on me for life, and wasn't even fuzzy to pet in my home, taking my energy and limiting what my life could be. After all, don't women have enough things that limit their lives? Why must we be made to feel that not having children is a painful thing? That we will forever be scarred by not letting fertilized eggs divide into babies?

I enjoy being able to travel without having to carry around a diaper bag to catch the poop and pee of a human that can't control its bodily functions. I enjoy going to the store and being able to hop out of my car without turning to the back seat and unstrapping a child who will whine and take three to four times as long to shop with. I like having a choice on how and what to spend my money on.

It is truly your hormones "talking" that makes you feel that motherhood is something you should do. The impulse is instinctive. Other impulses we have are instinctual too. Being human, though, we are afforded the luxury of rational thought and not slaves to our impulsive or instinctual behavior.

And please don't feel obligated to have a child just because society says this completes you as a woman.

[Paul Mawdsley]

Aaron,

Happy Anniversary!

I think your partner made the right choice for her and the baby she didn't have. I still don't think its all hormones though. I think this is too simple a view of the human psyche.

Paul

[CNA]

Hi, Paul

I agree. It's not all about hormones. I never once had the motherhood "urge" so to speak to have kids. I never felt the biological clock is just tickin' away. For me, it was just the thought of "wanting" a family eventually. Even after making it permanent, I still have never had the "urge" to have more kids. But that's just me and I'm as woman as you can get. But I do agree with you, I don't think it's all about hormones.

Congrats, Aaron, on the anniversary !! Must be splendid !!

Angie

[Fran]

I very much appreciate everybody's response to my post and the insights I've gleaned from them. I'm particularly grateful to have people's understanding for where I'm coming from. It's nice to share this kind of thing with people who respect my decision and don't think I'm some kind of alien for it. I love the spontaneity and freedom that not having children gives me. It's also so much easier to take risks in life when I don't have to worry about the impact it'll have on someone else!

[Fran]

I could list many other reasons if you're interested.

I am interested in hearing your many other reasons, if you would be willing to share them?

[Roger Bissell]

Hi, Fran. I always appreciate your posts, and I enjoy the glimpses of the person behind them. :-)

If you have not already done so, take a look at my essay, "Beyond Survival and Flourishing" (especially the section "Generativity and the 'Biological Clock'"), in the Ethics folder. Here's the link:

http://www.wheelerdesignworks.netfirms.com...topic.php?t=132

The fact that you are relating to children of siblings and friends is good. You are being generative toward younger people -- and you are doing so in a way that, as you indicate, shields them from the risks you like to take with your own life. Given your values and life-trajectory, this seems to be the ideal form of generativity for you.

There are a number of bad reasons for having children, as well as a number of good ones. As others have suggested, these reasons tend to cluster together in a holistic sort of way. Leonard Peikoff, in a lecture given about 10 years ago ("Feeling, Judging, and Not Being Moralistic"), outlined some of these reasons, and he outlined a useful methodology for rationally sorting through the issues of whether to have children. The lecture set is available from The Ayn Rand Bookstore.

REB

[jordanz]

I could list many other reasons if you're interested.

I am interested in hearing your many other reasons, if you would be willing to share them?

OK - you asked for it...

In no particular order:

* I have a lot of emotional baggage from childhood and don't think I would make a very good father.

* We're both very selfish (imagine that). We value our time and want it for ourselves.

* My wife doesn't like children very much. They can be loud, messy, rude, demanding, etc.

* Having children is a tremendous amount of work. All the couples we know who have kids (especially young ones) do very little except take care of their kids.

* Kids grow up and don't necessarily appreciate their parents (I'm one of those kids). So, what's the point? You invest 18 years in them and then they rebel against you.

* Expense. Children are a big drain on finances. The expense gets worse as they get older. If you want them to go to a good college you'd better have a fat bank account.

Hmm - that's all for now. I could probably think of other things ;)

[Paul Mawdsley]

Jordanz,

You're right, but for someone who is a grown-up (ie: has processed the baggage), the costs can be outweighed by the rational self-interest of people who want children. The question for someone considering if they want to have children is: are the costs of having children outweighed by my rational self-interest in having children?

Paul

[Dragonfly]

The danger is that the costs are seriously underestimated. Be also wary of stories how wonderful it is. Perhaps it may be wonderful, but I've known examples that were far from wonderful, while appearances of a happy family were kept up for the outside world.

[Paul Mawdsley]

The experience of being a parent can be a harsh reality. It is not a choice that should be made for trivial reasons or without extensive consideration. You can't say, "Oops! I changed my mind." Self-responsibility requires a lot from us. Responsibility for another requires even more. A happy fantasy about being a father or mother is not a good reason to have children.

Paul

[Charles R. Anderson]

Fran,

I will try to give you some of my perspective and also some of the perspective of my wife. We have 3 daughters, the youngest just finished her first year of college.

I came from a large family and enjoyed my childhood with 4 sisters and a brother. It was a middle class family, but with so many children, we lived on a tight budget. Everyone went to college, though only two us chose to finish straight through 4 years, while one sister finished later after leaving to marry. We always got by, but with few luxuries. So what. They are over valued anyway.

Anna is Ukrainian and came to the US when she was 6 months old from a Displaced Persons camp in W. Germany, where she was born. Her parents knew no English and were Kulaks, better off than average farmers. Her dad went to work as a carpenter for White Sewing Machine and then for US Steel. Throughout her early childhood, her parents sent every cent they could to relatives and friends to bring them to the US. Anna was about 12 when she received her first ever toy, a doll, from a woman who lived down the street. She has a brother 9 years older and a sister 5 years older. Her sister left home at 15 to marry. Her mom worked nights on a cleaning crew and had some problems with adapting to living in America. Anna largely grew up alone, was given no chores, but told to study and do well in school, which she did. She became very accustomed to being alone a lot. She liked it and still does.

We met in 1971when I was in graduate school at Case Western Reserve University, from which Anna had an undergraduate degree. She was then working as a microbiologist at the CWRU Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital. We married in 1973 and we enjoyed a spontaneous lifestyle as I finished my Ph.D. and then did a post doc, while Anna got a M.S. in Biology. In 1980, we moved to Maryland and in 1981, we bought a house. I wanted children, having a particularly strong desire to have at least one daughter. Anna waxed back and forth on the issue, but then in 1982 decided that she would also like to have a child. In late 1982, when Anna was 35, Kirsten, our oldest daughter was born. Kirsten was a cholicy baby and was very hard on us for about 6 months. Then Karen was born in 1985 and Katie in 1987. Anna was then certain that she wanted no more children. In 1984, Anna had started Pharmacy School and after taking time off for the birth of Karen and Katie, she graduated in 1992 and took and passed her Pharmacy Boards. It was a great struggle, with 3 young kids and often having two in daycare at once. We struggled financially and for the first time ever, Anna had problems getting good grades.

In retrospect, it was very hard for Anna to adapt to the commitments that children required. In many ways, she was a good mother, but too often her effort was motivated by a sense of duty, rather than one of pleasure. The fact that she was always working meant that she had no time for herself. She really missed spontaneity in her life and she really missed having quiet time alone. She also seems to have suffered from postpartum depression. When the children squabbled, she had a tendency to become a squabbling child herself. Perhaps, because she was so much younger than her brother and sister and because her parents were seldom around, she never learned how a parent should behave with children. Among adults, Anna is very adult, but I found that when surrounded by children, she became a child. Anna never really enjoyed playing with the girls, though she did sometimes enjoy helping them with school work. When the children were young and until Katie was about a senior in high school, Anna tended to be irritable. As the girls became pretty much self-sufficient, Anna became happier. Motherhood was a duty, not a source of pleasure for her.

I enjoyed my children. I liked playing with them when they were young. I was able to switch from playing with them to being the adult easily. Mostly, they came to me with their problems, except for the female puberty issues. I spent a lot of time easing the tensions between them and Anna. But too often, I was working when they needed me to be with them. My professional career went from very time-consuming to absurdly so when I took a job with a defense contractor lab in 1990 and they then fired 2/3 of the scientists and closed down the lab in 1995. I opened my own lab, which meant endless work hours. Sometimes, my daughters were angry with me about this. Kirsten spent more time with me by working with me at the labs and Katie worked last summer and will return this summer.

From this experience, I draw these conclusions about what makes the necessarily hard and demanding commitment of becoming a parent much more difficult:

Not finding playing with kids fun.Having difficulty in taking on long-term commitments.
Liking solitude and quiet.
Liking an orderly and clean house.
Developing a very demanding career, especially if it means operating your own business.
Loving spontaneity in your life.
If you are inclined to depression.
If you are not an optimist.
If you are not both tolerant and benevolent.
If you have an addiction.
If you do not have a partner who loves children and will be available.
If the idea of working with a child to help them develop into a self-sufficient and independent person does not seem like a fun project.
If you cannot see what the sources of joy would be for you in raising a child.
You do not need farm workers you only have to feed, but who will work from dawn to nightfall.
Fortunately, for all our errors and all the time we left our kids on their own, they have turned out to be pretty decent people. Kids are not always as fragile as they are made out to be. They can be remarkably resilient. Of course, maybe they are not perfect and maybe they do harbor some resentments that their childhood was not easier. They pretty much all knew some stay-at-home mom who they think was a better mom than Anna and they know fathers who were home more too. But mostly, they seem to enjoy us much more now than they did for a few rough years as teenagers.
Being a parent is a bit like being President of the United States. The job is impossible and when you hold it, though you may think you ought to be loved and appreciated more, you will have constant critics, including your kids, especially when they are teenagers. There is probably nothing as hard for two parents to agree on either. In comparison, financial issues are easy.
But, I sure do love my three daughters. I loved Anna before we had children and I love her very much now for having given them to me. I know they cost her a lot. How much, I can see in how she is happier now that they are pretty independent. She enjoys them now, though there were times when she wished she had never had children when they were younger. It was hard for her when they were so dependent upon her. Tomorrow, Anna and Katie are going on a walkathon together for medical research. They have been looking forward to doing this, since before Katie started finals at RIT. This summer they will enjoy finding furniture for Katie's apartment in the fall at RIT. It is much easier now that the girls are adults.

[Dennis Edwall]

Charles,

I really enjoyed your story. Thanks very much for sharing.

Dennis

[Fran]

Hi Charles

My apologies for taking so long to reply - I'm back in the UK and I don't have regular internet access.

I really appreciate that you shared your story as I can see myself in Anna and don't think that motherhood is something that I would enjoy. It seems like a joyless task. I'm sure there are benefits to having children, but the disadvantages seem to outweigh any advantages, and I keep hearing the research that says that children do not bring happiness, rather unhappiness, and that people become happier when their children leave home.

My mum didn't enjoy being a parent and I think if she had been born in my generation, she would not have had them. I just need to be certain that I'm choosing not to have children for my own reasons, and not just because my mum disliked it so much.

I'm just eternally grateful that I was born into a generation where contraception allows me to remain childless and that I'm not dependent on a husband for my survival.

Thanks

Fran