Accept Israel as the Jewish State?

[Mike11]

Israel is constituted (legally) as a secular state. The laws of Israel are those formulated in the Knesset, not gleaned from the Talmud. Israel is not a Jewish Shariah State. However, politically, orthodox Jews have a disproportionate influence there. In fact the State was founded mostly by eastern European socialist radicals. Hertzel's burgoise followers were in the numerical minority when the actual founding of the State happened. The majority of Israelis are not all that observant. During the summer, the beaches are mobbed on Shabbat.

As long as -The Protocols of Zion- is the number one non-Arabic work translated into Arabic in the Islamic world, the fear of antisemitism is justified. The Muslims are out to get the Jews, not just Israeli Jews. Listen to their agitprop. Read the Q'ran. Listen to what the Imams and Mullahs say when the froth starts flying out of their mouths. In froth there is truth. Read Sayid Q'tab the man who wrote the -Mein Kampf- of Islam --- -In the Shade of the Q'ran-. In point of fact, the anti-Zionist stance of some of the Islamics and pro-Islamics is a feeble smokescreen for their antisemitism. It is very easy to accept a dislike for another -nation-. To look respectable I will tell you I dislike France. In my heart it is the French I detest ( not that I would ever do any harm to those cheese eating surrender monkeys, mind you -- I surely would not).

Ba'al Chatzaf

My preresponse apology follows, skip the next paragragh if you want.

The problem with the internet, more specifically myself on the internet is that I become a very bad person. More than most and as we know the internet is a very low brow jaded irrational circus freak show. I'm apologising in advance as I'm sure in your day to day life you are an upstanding person. Also, in this sort of area especially where people are so heated and so used to the "varied but at the core uninterrupted tripe of the enemy" we cease seeing the individuality of an arguement and see the arguement and the other person in a caricatured way. Maybe you don't generally I guess, but I do, every time. That said I think you have done that here to an extent to me though on one crucial matter I may have been vague.

Sticking to what is important here as I normally nitpick. I'm also going to be far more polite than I would be if we were in person and I was in your punching radius. I'm really going to restrain myself here. Lots.

1. "The laws of Israel are those formulated in the Knesset, not gleaned from the Talmud. Israel is not a Jewish Shariah State." I did not claim this. My issue was limited and specific - "Israel does still have laws however that hinder what nonjews can do, they can not settle in certain areas, jews are given a free tcket to immigrate while gentiles are not, marriages are still defined by religous identities (mixed marriages are discouraged, when they are possible at all) and other "Apartheid-Lite" things like that which should be abolished" I also said they were, untill recently very much active in the teritories with famous slogans like "To surrender the Land is to defy God". You took me as saying far, far more than I was saying and attacked that.

I know Israel is contradictery with plenty of highly liberal sentinments. I also know the compromises made with the Orthodox, the "disproportionate influence" you mentioned, these are what I was criticising as incompatable with a secular and liberal society. There are also race issues like the "Right of Return" I criticised left over from the nationalist days of the 1940s. Sure, Israel may have some edge on Japan but compare it to every other western nation and it quickly suffers in that comparison.

Any time you set up an elite within a country, even if the elite is the majority you have a set up that causes excess. Unlike the Islamic world this elitism isn't total but it is still stronger than that found in the vast majority of western cultures. Further, once you set up this elitist mentality there is always the danger it will grow. This is why in America the Consitution does not say "The congress will not expand the state churches to more than 2 per town" but no state churches whatsoever. Consider the influence gained by right wing religous groups in Israel over the past few decades.

2. I may not have been clear on something. Antisemitism exists. Muslims, and Neo nazis can also hide behind human rights talk while being anti semetic. I was not trying to deny that. What I said was criticism of Israel in the western world, and its low esteem in many people's eye derives from Israel's own actions in the offensive polices enacted by certain aspects of Israeli society desined to colonise and expropriate a region, putting the people of that region in a very nasty place for 30 years. I may not have been clear but divestment campaigns, UN resolutions and the like that Western liberals mostly support are because of that. Islam has nothing to do with it.

3. I did not not deny muslims don't like jews by and large. This is why I said "... barbarism in the Arab world and general violence in the region Israel has a right to maintain a strong military capable of defending the state from military aggression. Further, to a point, "Jewish Identity" laws can be considered defencive in the context of the arab "Right of Return" which would immediatly lead to a "One state solution" which, at least in Palestine's current form, would be the end of liberal democracy and human rights in the Levant for decades to come."

Antisemitism is getting overblown in 2 ways here, once as a cause for the Jewish State, secondly as the all encompassing reason ofr antizionism or criticising Israeli policies. It causes us to misunderstand what Israel is for, as something made out of fear rather than hope, and paint all Israelis and Israeli politics with one brush of "this is what real jews do and believe"- causing the problem opposition to antisemitsm tries to prevent.

The "Jewishness" of Israel, like all national narratives (the palestinian one for example) can become a needed tool of survival for groups in extreme situations like the persecution in eastern europe. It also damages a liberal mentality though by putting up racial and religous walls around people and treating one inevetably as second class. Be aware of that, it happens everywhere.

Israel is the jewishstate now however by sheer demograghics its future as the jewish homeland is secure. The nationalism is n longer a major survival tool, in terms of the globel support Israel needs to survive its becoming a draw back. Israel ought to be a democracy for all its citizens and leave the self imposed ghetto behind.

That is my position, apologies if I was unclear earlier

Edited December 12, 2007 by Mike11

[bmacwilliam]

I'm apologising in advance as I'm sure in your day to day life you are an upstanding person.

Ha! I'm even more sure of the exact opposite!

He's an admitted venomous racist - of the worst kind. He's the worst kind because he's not a moron. He's an intelligent guy who still chooses to be a racist scumbag - reprehensible.

There's very little need for apology IMHO.

Bob