Jewish power dominates at 'Vanity Fair'

[BaalChatzaf]

One problem is when you speak of any 'tribal' attribute, racial connections will usually be made, intended, or both. As a result, statements will be perceived as racist without careful and deliberate clarification. Look at the following statements...

1.) Rand has the ethics of a Jew.

2.) Blacks are better at sports.

3.) Asians are better at math.

4.) Jews are cheap and money-hungry.

5.) Blacks are more criminally minded.

6.) Catholics have a low opinion of women.

Statement 1 above, is different from all the others in a particular way. It is a statement about an individual. Whereas 2 through 6 are general statements. The world "all" implicitly is the first word of statements 2 through 6, and these statements are generally false. Statement 1 is probably true. Rand was brought up in a household steeped in Jewish values including ethical values. Her mom and pop were Jewish, but probably not observant. I do not know enough about the particulars of Rand's upbringing to know how observant her folks were.

Now as to "Jewish Ethics". The core of Jewish ethics, as perfected and propounded by the Rabbis, is respect for life and property. You will also notice that these central values are not unique to Jewish culture. In other "high" civilizations life and property was respected at least within the society. So stealing from a countryman or killing a countryman is wrong, but perhaps taking booty in war against the stranger and the barbarian is o.k.. It is interesting to note that the central ethical values can be found in societies all over the world. Different languages, different customs, different physical characteristics ("race"), but these ethical themes keep coming up again and again. My guess is that there is something about the biological and physical nature of humans that cause these ethical themes to be played and replayed, sometimes to different music (so to speak) but the themes are there. Hypothesis: our human nature drives our ethics at some level of abstraction and detail.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Wolf DeVoon]

Robert,

Regarding your Post 69, this is the kind of conceptual unpacking that I love. You gave some very compelling reasons for judging Wolf's statement as you did. It is something I think Wolf should look at and I would love to hear his thoughts on it.

First of all, I meant what I said. Tribalism however defined (race, culture, religion) breeds war. Wendy McElroy found in Voltaire a theorem that all tribes can work together 9 to 5 in business and commerce, which I accept in principle, but have not seen much empirical evidence for.

What I see instead is a defacto aristocracy. ARI and Ba'al are on the same page: Don't fuck with the Jews.

I think the rational thing to do is ask and answer questions of fact, without smears or mind-reading. It's a fact that 35,000 US soldiers and marines have been badly butchered and roughly 200,000 Iraqis have been killed, 4 million driven from their homes, and no end in sight. It was 100% actuated by lies. Whodunnit and why?

Post #69 was important. But #33 did a better job of intimidation.

So, I'll take the weight for being what? -- offensive? -- more offensive than Conan's call for genocide? Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, and two wrongs are both wrong. But fact is not argumentative. Fact is not a bloodthisty agenda. True or false, Jews rule the Holy Land? True or false, the City of London? True or false, Hollywood? True or false, US foreign policy? Let truth destroy all prejudice.

Michael, I question why we had to drag ourselves through all this (no end in sight, either). To celebrate Judaism?

W.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Wolf DeVoon

[BaalChatzaf]

So, I'll take the weight for being what? -- offensive? -- more offensive than Conan's call for genocide? Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, and two wrongs are both wrong. But fact is not argumentative. Fact is not a bloodthisty agenda. True or false, Jews rule the Holy Land? True or false, the City of London? True or false, Hollywood? True or false, US foreign policy? Let truth destroy all prejudice.

Michael, I question why we had to drag ourselves through all this (no end in sight, either). To celebrate Judaism?

W.

The government of Israel is largely Jewish, but Israel only occupies one third of the biblical holy land. So the Jews do NOT rule the ( biblical ) Holy Land. As to London, false. Parliement rules London. Hollywood? No. The dominant position that Jews once had in the movie business is a thing of the past. Foreign Policy. No. The President and Congress determine foreign policy. Do Jewish interests have a lobby in Washington? Yes. Do they rule Washington? No. OPEC has as much to say as the Israel Lobby and it is ultimately the elected officials of the United States that implement policy and it is various unelected staff people in various departments that formulate policy. Let the truth destroy all prejudice.

Ba'al Chataf

Edited October 16, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[bmacwilliam]

You went on to elaborate using Asians as a 'cultural' group. That is a huuuge stretch.

Bob,

I don't mind disagreement, but accuracy is important. You are not accurate. Please read carefully. I mentioned the Chinese as a cultural group (as in American culture, English culture, etc.) as well as a race (as in Caucasian, Chinese, Japanese, etc.). When I mentioned Orientals (not "Asians"), I specifically said "cultures." Look it up and you will see it.

I had prefaced that by saying "culture" before qualifying it with "cultures" and the context should have made it clear that the standard of comparison on that level (which was then subdivided by the plural) was "Western culture," "Oriental culture," "Arabian culture, "Indian culture," broad strokes like that. These cultures do exist.

Your inaccuracy is actually one of the dangers of seeing things through a racist lens. It blinds you to obvious messages and makes you aggressive where no problem exists. There are real enemies and bad guys out there and they need to be engaged. (I, for one, am engaging.) Why not do that? Maybe it is safer to be aggressive here among men and women of reason, even if the price is to be inaccurate?

All I can say is if information about groups and praise for them offends you, don't read them. I fully intend to continue and my observations will continue to be principle-oriented. Making a false argument and false accusations merely reflects on your own misunderstanding. Here is a good example:

And for crying out loud, among logical folks why am I the first to point out that if the words

"White Power Dominates" are offensive, how could "Jewish Power Dominates" just slide on by???? Really now....C'mon...

Words? The reason you are the first to point this out is because you are the sole author. I do not recall a single post on this thread (or others) talking about "Jewish Power," much less "Jewish Power Dominates." This is more inaccuracy from being blinded by the racist lens.

(Exceptions. Robert Jones recently mentioned this, among other things, on another thread in discussing the dangers of using well-known catch-phrases of hate speech. And I believe there was a small discussion of the Protocols of the Elder of Zion several weeks ago. That's about it.)

Incidentally, have you noticed what you keep omitting in your arguments? The reason for the achievements of both Jews and Chinese is due to their attitude towards education. To the extent their respective cultures foster this attitude, they achieve. We all should look and learn from that.

Michael

"The reason you are the first to point this out is because you are the sole author. I do not recall a single post on this thread (or others) talking about "Jewish Power," much less "Jewish Power Dominates." This is more inaccuracy from being blinded by the racist lens."

Ah...It's the title of the thread - but I'm blind?

Ok, you did use 'Oriental' not 'Asian' - I stand corrected.

"Your inaccuracy is actually one of the dangers of seeing things through a racist lens."

Wrong. It's your misguided attempt at a PC commendation of a culture that is racist. You pretend you can separate culture from race at will, but it doesn't work that way. You say an oriental culture exists - ask a Japanese, Korean, and Chinese person if they share a common culture. My culture, my "western" culture as you'd call it ALSO values technological achievment, so I think the content of your argument is weak, but that's beside the point. I can guarantee you that the culture differences between my neighbourhood and the trailer park on the other side of town are MUCH more different with respect to education value than my culture and any Oriental culture you might wish to attempt to define.

You're saying essentially that Orientals are good at tech stuff, but pretending that because you credit the culture and not the race, that makes it OK. It doesn't. You are assigning character traits to a tribe, while trying to wiggle out of a racist allegation because you say you mean 'cultural' traits not 'race'. All the while you know that the distinction doesn't matter when it identifies the same group. You identify "those people" either way. It matters little whether you base your distinction on race or culture and that's the point you're missing.

Let me put it this way:

If I could become an 'Oriental' by adopting their culture, then you are identifying a cultural group. If not, you're talking about race but denying it. So Oriental culture is 'good', but the group that is Oriental is so because of race?

Edited October 16, 2007 by Bob_Mac

[Wolf DeVoon]

London, false... Hollywood? No... Foreign Policy? No...

Tyranny of definitions, Bob? Let's get some facts instead of assertions.

FYI, "the City of London" is not the metropolitan capital of England.

I quit. 20 years in Hollywood was enough.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael, I question why we had to drag ourselves through all this (no end in sight, either). To celebrate Judaism?

Wolf,

Actually, my idea was to celebrate achievement. Unfortunately, tribal/racial issues are obscuring that by those who prefer tribal/racial issues (and I do not mean you).

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob M.,

It is easy to adopt an Oriental culture. Go to an Oriental country and fit in. I already did that with Brazilian culture. It works and there was no racism at all involved.

With time you might get it right. At least you are now distinguishing between culture and race. That's a step in the right direction. The next step will be to realize that praise for the achievement of one person/group is not condemnation of another, but that is a ways off from what I can discern.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob M.,

It is easy to adopt an Oriental culture. Go to an Oriental country and fit in. I already did that with Brazilian culture. It works and there was no racism at all involved.

Not in Japan. They are very racist there. They even keep records on themselves tracing their ancestry back many generations to show how purely Japanese they are. How many nations do you know of where it is common to keep a pedigree? And their treatment of Koreans and children of Koreans is an abomination. Look up eta on google sometimes. Or bonrin. The Korean "bloods" are "niggers" of Japan.

The Pacific War was a clash between two very racist nations. We hated the little yellow rats and they hated us gijiin barbarians and claimed that we smelled foul. Sound familiar?

Even 60 years after the war, they still keep pedigrees.

The descendants of Japanese who are Americans, however, are not nearly so racist. One of the good side effects of living in a (pardon the expression) diverse society. A similar thing happened with American Jews. Except for the Orhodox, marriage of Jews to non-Jews is not uncommon. I have a non-Jewish son-in-law and and a non-Jewish daughter in law. I also have a Jewish daughter in law. Such a thing is not at all uncommon. It is called assimilation. America is the assimilation capital of the world.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

A small minority of Japanese people keep pedigrees and Japan does not have a monopoly on that practice anyway. But that is not the issue. You should never forget when discussing these things with me that my viewpoint is more Brazilian than American (or probably a hybrid of both all mixed up). Brazil has an enormous Japanese colony (and a Korean one). It is true of the Japanese (and Arabs) in Brazil, but not Koreans, that they have a closed culture that is hard to penetrate. However, once one Japanese (or Arab) trusts you, the doors to the culture open and you enter and leave at will. The experiences I have had bear this out.

Also, there is a huge number of non-Oriental Brazilians who go to Japan to live and work. Some stay and some return. They adopt Japanese culture quite easily. I have never heard anyone who returned object to being treated in a racist manner for not being of the Japanese race. I have heard stories about difficulties regarding marriage, but the issue I heard was not knowing the families at such a distance (Japanese are very family-oriented), not race.

Michael

[tjohnson]

'Race' is such an ambiguous term in this context perhaps it would be better to speak about 'stereotyping'. Perhaps people who 'stereotype' themselves are prone to 'stereotype' others as well. This is definitely pathological behaviour since it represents a reversal of the natural order of abstraction (see general semantics) ie. attributing characteristics of a group to an individual.

[bmacwilliam]

Bob M.,

It is easy to adopt an Oriental culture. Go to an Oriental country and fit in. I already did that with Brazilian culture. It works and there was no racism at all involved.

With time you might get it right. At least you are now distinguishing between culture and race. That's a step in the right direction. The next step will be to realize that praise for the achievement of one person/group is not condemnation of another, but that is a ways off from what I can discern.

Michael

A) To think that you can distinguish so easily between culture and race is a big mistake. You can pretend to be commenting on the culture, but it's a delusion. Culture is shared along predominantly racial lines - that's a fact and that's the rub.

"The next step will be to realize that praise for the achievement of one person/group is not condemnation of another,"

It is just as racist to praise a tribal group because of (A).

Bob

Edited October 16, 2007 by Bob_Mac

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

We disagree. It is registered.

Michael

[Selene]

Bob M.,

It is easy to adopt an Oriental culture. Go to an Oriental country and fit in. I already did that with Brazilian culture. It works and there was no racism at all involved.

Not in Japan. They are very racist there. They even keep records on themselves tracing their ancestry back many generations to show how purely Japanese they are. How many nations do you know of where it is common to keep a pedigree? And their treatment of Koreans and children of Koreans is an abomination. Look up eta on google sometimes. Or bonrin. The Korean "bloods" are "niggers" of Japan.

The Pacific War was a clash between two very racist nations. We hated the little yellow rats and they hated us gijiin barbarians and claimed that we smelled foul. Sound familiar?

Even 60 years after the war, they still keep pedigrees.

The descendants of Japanese who are Americans, however, are not nearly so racist. One of the good side effects of living in a (pardon the expression) diverse society. A similar thing happened with American Jews. Except for the Orhodox, marriage of Jews to non-Jews is not uncommon. I have a non-Jewish son-in-law and and a non-Jewish daughter in law. I also have a Jewish daughter in law. Such a thing is not at all uncommon. It is called assimilation. America is the assimilation capital of the world.

Ba'al Chatzaf

"The Pacific War was a clash between two very racist nations. We hated the little yellow rats and they hated us gijiin barbarians and claimed that we smelled foul. Sound familiar?"

Wow, I never knew that. I thought it was because they initiated force by a sneak attack on some Sunday and accidently killed close to 3,000 of our citizens. It is amazing how much history you can learn on this forum.

[tjohnson]

Wow, I never knew that. I thought it was because they initiated force by a sneak attack on some Sunday and accidently killed close to 3,000 of our citizens. It is amazing how much history you can learn on this forum.

Isn't it?

[bmacwilliam]

'Race' is such an ambiguous term in this context perhaps it would be better to speak about 'stereotyping'. Perhaps people who 'stereotype' themselves are prone to 'stereotype' others as well. This is definitely pathological behaviour since it represents a reversal of the natural order of abstraction (see general semantics) ie. attributing characteristics of a group to an individual.

Wolf put it well when he wrote:

"Tribalism however defined (race, culture, religion) breeds war. "

Right. It also breeds a whole bucket of other issues like racism, discrimination, distrust and a whole long list of other nasty problems. Racism is a subset of tribalism which encompasses more than race.

MSK thinks he's being anti-tribalist or anti-racist (or at least neutral) by calling attention to and celebrating acheivement. But that's not reality - he's calling attention to JEWISH achievement. He took a virtuous character trait that everyone should value and tribalized it, but at the same time overtly denying the bold-faced racial/tribal connection. Ugh....

Is "Fucking for virginity" next?

Bob

[Selene]

Wow, I never knew that. I thought it was because they initiated force by a sneak attack on some Sunday and accidently killed close to 3,000 of our citizens. It is amazing how much history you can learn on this forum.

Isn't it?

Isn't it what?

[magnummaid]

To point out attributes in a culture and to name the attribute and the culture is not racist. Wow, will I be called racist if I say one particular group of people are excellent basket weavers or another make delicious cheese ?! Or the culture of one group seems to work more efficiently then this other based on empirical evidence , Is that racist ?! Or is it Objective ?

[tjohnson]

It is amazing how much history you can learn on this forum.

It's amazing, isn't it?

[bmacwilliam]

To point out attributes in a culture and to name the attribute and the culture is not racist. Wow, will I be called racist if I say one particular group of people are excellent basket weavers or another make delicious cheese ?! Or the culture of one group seems to work more efficiently then this other based on empirical evidence , Is that racist ?! Or is it Objective ?

If you identify and attack a certain culture/ethnic group or attribute is it racist? Maybe it's objective?

You simply overtly or implicitly attach a characteristic to individuals based on tribal membership. It doesn't matter if it's true, nobody ever said that stereotypes were not based in reality, only that they are not fair. You need some intellectual sophistication to understand why it's bad EVEN IF it's objectively true to some degree.

Bob

[Selene]

It is amazing how much history you can learn on this forum.

It's amazing, isn't it?

Yep. I was surprised that they were actually the color yellow, I put on my best looking metro-sexual hat and tried to imagine what shade or hue of yellow that they actually were? I just thought he meant "yellow" as a character description as in they ran away from the fire bombings which killed more civilians than both of those there nuclear thing a ma jigs that they dropped on those funny sounding cities. They were kinda wierd looking to, ya know what I mean, like kinda suspicious looking with them funny eyes.

[magnummaid]

Intellectual sophistication ? To point out and recognize an objective truth is BAD ? By the way , I wasn't saying they were the best basket weavers, only that a paticular culture values basket weaving more than most. And why is that, I ask myself ? Especially when this other culture, let's say my own, will do well to have that same emphasis ? And how to achieve that kind of rational value for myself ? How to undo my original culturally manifested, flase premise that baskets were the devils testicles, so I to, could carry my gardening in one trip back to the house? Anyway, your point is that it does a deservice to name the belief system/culture/tribe behind certain/or all, activity indicators because it streotypes complex issues, but the bottom line is knowing ,where someone is from , what their culture practices include, the philosophy they grew up amidst, what the foundation of these beliefs was made of, helps when trying to teach yourself/or others to fish. I don't say "All so-and-so's are basket weavers." , but I will say "If you want a great basket, go to the so-and-so's and they will most likely lead you in the right direction." and also "Get back to me in a couple years ,cause I'm gonna be learning basket weaving based on so-and-so teaching of basket craftsmenship." :sorcerer:

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Gigi,

LOL...

Welcome to the world of online bickering.

Don't worry too much about Bob. Nobody takes him too seriously (although at times he is very intelligent). He sometimes gets fixated on a notion that blinds him to all else. Then one day he eats too many jalapeño peppers and gets horrible indigestion. He goes on a forum on some kind of lopsided Dom Quixote crusade so he can think about something else because his bowels are worrying him to death. Since nobody pays any attention to the idea itself on its own merits (after all, it is lopsided), he starts peppering his posts with terms like "bullshit," "fucking" and other marks of erudition and makes a few nasty personal insults. At least that gets him some attention and the jalapeños stop hurting for a while.

Underneath it all, I sense that Bob is a good guy. He's just insecure a bit and has to bluster to cover the inner hole.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

"The Pacific War was a clash between two very racist nations. We hated the little yellow rats and they hated us gijiin barbarians and claimed that we smelled foul. Sound familiar?"

Wow, I never knew that. I thought it was because they initiated force by a sneak attack on some Sunday and accidently killed close to 3,000 of our citizens. It is amazing how much history you can learn on this forum.

There was a long history of anti-Japenese anti-Chinese sentiment in the U.S. long before Pearl Harbor.

You will notice the U.S. did not do mass roundups of German born and first generation German-Americans and put them in holding camps. However hundred's of thousands of Japanese born and first generation Japanese-Americans were put behind barbed wire in 1942. The was during Earl Warren's governorship in California. FDR signed a presidential order mandating the roundup.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclu...nited_States%29

for a resume of anti-Chinese sentiment. In California there was anti-Japanese sentiment well before the Pacific War. It seems the Japense farmers were "too successful" and ticked a lot of California farmers off. The Japanese farmers had a knack for turning marginal land into money makers.

Live and learn.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

"We" and "they" are terms that are way too collective to paint with a racial brush—especially if you want to claim that racism between Japanese and Americans was the reason for WWII.

My parents, for instance, never hated the Japanese. In fact, I grew up being cared for by a Japanese immigrant who married an American sergeant.

I do agree that pro-Aryan/antisemitic racism was present as a driving force on the German side.

Michael

[magnummaid]

Gigi,

LOL...

Welcome to the world of online bickering.

Don't worry too much about Bob. Nobody takes him too seriously (although at times he is very intelligent). He sometimes gets fixated on a notion that blinds him to all else. Then one day he eats too many jalapeño peppers and gets horrible indigestion. He goes on a forum on some kind of lopsided Dom Quixote crusade so he can think about something else because his bowels are worrying him to death. Since nobody pays any attention to the idea itself on its own merits (after all, it is lopsided), he starts peppering his posts with terms like "bullshit," "fucking" and other marks of erudition and makes a few nasty personal insults. At least that gets him some attention and the jalapeños stop hurting for a while.

Underneath it all, I sense that Bob is a good guy. He's just insecure a bit and has to bluster to cover the inner hole.

Michael

Michael,

LOL... It's great to be here with you good people !