Jewish power dominates at 'Vanity Fair'


Michael Stuart Kelly

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Selene,

I appreciate your apology, but none was necessary. I already thought you were horsing around. I merely wanted to explain myself clearly to you because I have been greatly misunderstood over the course of this journey and I perceived you would probably understand.

(From private conversations I have had, many people actually do understand me completely. They just don't say anything in public because they don't want to be yelled at. :) )

Michael

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Bob,

Would you mind supplying a quote? From what I read of Leviticus 18, the commandment would be "Thou shall not have sex with thy neighbor or most anything else." A bit heavy on the word "defile." The penalty is excommunication.

:)

Interestingly, here is an entry called Collective Guilt, Collective Atonement from a blog on the Torah. This concept certainly does border on self-sacrifice.

Michael

Chap. 19, verse 18. Collective Atonement is like corporate guilt. Since all Jews theoretically are the board of directors, the guilt is handled collectively. Most Jewish ethical imperatives have to do with individual acts, however. The breast beating on Yom Kippur is mostly ceremonial.

There is nothing in Judaism that commands one should sacrifice himself for the sake of another. That is why in the early history of Judaism (back in biblical times) animal sacrifices were offered. It sure beats sacrificing one's first born for the sake of good crops or God's forgiveness. In fact the story of the Binding of Isaac (Gen. 22) is the proof text in point. When Abraham is about to sacrifice his most beloved son Isaac, God steps in and stays his hand. From this the Rabbis inferred that there is to be no human sacrifice permitted either blood sacrifice otherwise. Judaism is ethical, but it is NOT altruistic.

You might want to take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_under_Jewish_Law for some more details on this.

One of the major stories of self-sacrifice what happened on M'tzadah. The Romans besieged the remainder of a Jewish rebel force at the fortress of M'tzadah (Masadah) on the Dead Sea. Rather than be taken by the Romans alive, 936 Jews committed suicide or permitted themselves to be killed. This story, which is of dubious provenance is told by Josephus. However, true or not, it is a great story and considered by some to be heroic.

Christianity, by contrast, is altruistic right down to the ground floor.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Bob,

I just looked it up and Leviticus 19:18 seems to say that Jews should love their Jewish neighbor as themselves. (I understand "kinfolk" or "thy people" to mean Jews in that context.) That is a little different than love for mankind in general. Are you supposed to ignore the context and half of that verse?

Michael

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Bob,

Would you mind supplying a quote? From what I read of Leviticus 18, the commandment would be "Thou shall not have sex with thy neighbor or most anything else." A bit heavy on the word "defile." The penalty is excommunication.

:)

Interestingly, here is an entry called Collective Guilt, Collective Atonement from a blog on the Torah. This concept certainly does border on self-sacrifice.

Michael

Here is an authoritative Talmudic reference. See http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/72

R. Ben Peturah takes the stand that in a situation where there are only resources enough for one to live, then one must live and the others perish. Akiva has a different opinion. But the tendency in Judaism is away from self sacrifice for the sake of another. As usual in Jewish affairs, there are a number of differing opinions.

The worst case scenario is what I call Sophie's Choice. A Jewess is in a concentration camp with her two children. A German officers tells her she must choose which of her children is to be shot dead. If she makes no choice then both will be shot dead, but she will not be shot. What is Sophie to do? There is a minority opinion that she should chose one of her children as victim if there is a chance the other will live. That is what Ben Peturah would say. Akiva would say otherwise.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited by BaalChatzaf
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Selene,

I appreciate your apology, but none was necessary. I already thought you were horsing around. I merely wanted to explain myself clearly to you because I have been greatly misunderstood over the course of this journey and I perceived you would probably understand.

(From private conversations I have had, many people actually do understand me completely. They just don't say anything in public because they don't want to be yelled at. :) )

Michael

I encourage people to yell at me. My parents were exceptional people. If they shook your hand to seal a contract, you could take that handshake to your local bank and cash it. When I was first priviledged to see the Fountainhead, it was after I read Atlas Shrugged. I just recently taped it [geez, I just date stamped myself] and watched it again. I am even more amazed at what a great cinematic work it is.

I was stunned, in this current "political cycle", and truely appreciative of the power of the Elsworth Toughy speech to

Peter Keating. It is dead nuts on! Simple, not simplistic, frightening in the reality that there actually are "humans" that actually want to be in that position towards another human being. It is beyond my capacity to understand what boiling hatred of existence and themselves that these wretches have to endure living with themselves "24/7/365".

One of my greatestest days as a human was understanding the twin towers of Rand's philosophy that chnaged me[90% of the rest just gave me a structure to what I already knew to be true]:

a) the sanction of the victim; and

b) the emotional and psychological three card monte game that these folks have to buy into to exist.

I love argument. To me, it is mental gymnastics. However, I do understand why folks shy away from be open and direct. Actions have consequences.

I understand.

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Hm. Why it always falls to me, I do not know. Anyway, I have to say something on behalf of the stupid and slow-witted, among which I am a prominent member. The political principle of democracy and equal justice is to check the natural aristocracy of brainy rich people. In America, this means Jews and white-shoe bankers who dominate banking, show business, government, etc.

I have found an organization to which you may join with your fellows, who make similar observation those "Jews and white-shoe bankers who dominate banking, show business, government, etc."

http://www.natall.com/

Maybe we can meet for some biers down at the Rathskeller, Herr Wolf De Voon Jackboots, and then go to a Bundist meeting to bust Jew skullcaps in afterwards.

Jesus: Have you ever read your own entries? You sound like some gullible shill reading from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

P.S.: I have a GWOT ribbon on my uniform. You? What have you done for us lately?

Edited by Robert Jones
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Bob,

In Sophie's Choice, Rand would say morality was no longer involved, so whatever is chosen is correct. (That's a horrible situation. It gives me the willies just to think about it. It makes me want to eradicate Nazism even more.)

Michael

All of Sophie's Choices were bad. Now which one was the -least- bad. The sage ben Peturah would tell Sophie to choice one of her children for death, on the grounds that other might live. Why should two lives be lost, when only one will be taken. Of course, ben Peturah was referring to two men in a desert with only enough water for one, and not for both. Do two die, or does one die. Both cannot survive.

Problems of this sort took up very little room in the Talmud which was overwhelmingly focused on how to Do the Right Thing or celebrate in the right way, not how to adjudicate death. That is why I could only find one entry that dealt with the matter. The overwhelming emphasis in Jewish law is concerned with -living- and living correctly and well.

The preponderance of the Talmud is dedicated to ethics and ceremony, not to altruism and self sacrifice. The only time when it was commanded to lay down one's life is when one is compelled to murder or to die, or to commit sexual immorality or die. In all other instances, violating the mitzvot (commandments) in order to live was not only permitted, but required. That is why one -must- violate the Sabbath in order to save a life. That is why circumcision of an infant is -forbidden- when there is a good chance he will be a hemopheliac. That is why fasting on Yom Kippur is -forbidden- when fasting is dangerous to one's health.

In all of Jewish laws and the commentaries there is not a single instance that requires one to go out and look for ways to be a martyr. If one is to be a martyr it will be in the context of a situation that is imposed on one by force. It is never permitted to go out and find ways to kill themselves and others in God's name. That is strictly a no no. By the way, THERE is the difference between Judaism and Islam. There is no Jihad in Judaism. That last Holy War was fought against the Canaanites about 3000 years ago. That is when there were no Jews, but only Israelites who were ten hairs short of being baboons.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Bob,

Only time??? I recall some monkeyshines of sacrifice. We can start with killing a kid because God so commanded. The old man didn't have to go through with it in the end, but the willingness to do so was the part that was rewarded. The name of the game was obedience through sacrifice.

Michael

The lesson derived was that there should be no human sacrifices. There should not even be tests for loyalty. The Rabbis managed to turn God's insanity into decent ethics. That is the genius of Rabbini.cal Judaism. Take a not so good thing and make a good thing out it. If God exists, then He chose his people well. And if He doesn't exist, His people are still trying to do the Right Thing anyway.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Jewish power dominates at 'Vanity Fair'

By NATHAN BURSTEIN

October 11, 2007

Jewish World

From the article:

It's a list of "the world's most powerful people," 100 of the bankers and media moguls, publishers and image makers who shape the lives of billions. It's an exclusive, insular club, one whose influence stretches around the globe but is concentrated strategically in the highest corridors of power.

More than half its members, at least by one count, are Jewish.

I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise. A heartfelt congratulations to an amazing culture, the Jews. May all men learn from them the reasons they are so well represented among the top.

Michael

"I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise."

Gotta seriously disagree with that.

The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better.

Bob

Edited by Bob_Mac
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"I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise."

Gotta seriously disagree with that.

The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better.

Bob,

It all depends on what you are looking at. If you understand that I am praising a race instead of a culture that encourages excellence, I suggest you read again.

Michael

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Jewish power dominates at 'Vanity Fair'

By NATHAN BURSTEIN

October 11, 2007

Jewish World

From the article:

It's a list of "the world's most powerful people," 100 of the bankers and media moguls, publishers and image makers who shape the lives of billions. It's an exclusive, insular club, one whose influence stretches around the globe but is concentrated strategically in the highest corridors of power.

More than half its members, at least by one count, are Jewish.

I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise. A heartfelt congratulations to an amazing culture, the Jews. May all men learn from them the reasons they are so well represented among the top.

Michael

"I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise."

Gotta seriously disagree with that.

The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better.

Bob

If we don't praise the Jews the bigots get an open field to attack them.

--Brant

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"I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise."

Gotta seriously disagree with that.

The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better.

Bob,

It all depends on what you are looking at. If you understand that I am praising a race instead of a culture that encourages excellence, I suggest you read again.

Michael

I understand that, but it's a very very thin line. You praise their culture, and their acheivment - fine. But is a definition of a Jew a cultural one? No, it's race. If I agree or adopt their culture, I am still not a Jew. It's a racial definition. I'll probably get argument on that one, but just answer the question "What proportion of Jews are Jews by birth?" Almost all.

Bob

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Jewish power dominates at 'Vanity Fair'

By NATHAN BURSTEIN

October 11, 2007

Jewish World

From the article:

It's a list of "the world's most powerful people," 100 of the bankers and media moguls, publishers and image makers who shape the lives of billions. It's an exclusive, insular club, one whose influence stretches around the globe but is concentrated strategically in the highest corridors of power.

More than half its members, at least by one count, are Jewish.

I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise. A heartfelt congratulations to an amazing culture, the Jews. May all men learn from them the reasons they are so well represented among the top.

Michael

"I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise."

Gotta seriously disagree with that.

The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better.

Bob

If we don't praise the Jews the bigots get an open field to attack them.

--Brant

No. Praise is just the other, "prettied-up" side of a very ugly thing.

Bob

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I understand that, but it's a very very thin line. You praise their culture, and their acheivment - fine. But is a definition of a Jew a cultural one? No, it's race. If I agree or adopt their culture, I am still not a Jew. It's a racial definition. I'll probably get argument on that one, but just answer the question "What proportion of Jews are Jews by birth?" Almost all.

Bob

Really? There are black Jews, white Jews, tan in-between Jews, blond Jews, nappy headed Jews, Jews with dark eyes and Jews with light eyes, Jews with long heads, Jews with short heads. There are even oriental/Asian Jews. A race? Yes a race. The human race.

If you take an infant born to a Zulu mother and raise him/her in a Jewish home, you will get a Jew of darker than average complexion. If you take an orphaned infant born to a Rabbi's wife and raise the infant as a Roman Catholic, you will get a Roman Catholic child and later a Roman Catholic adult. It is culture one hundred percent and genetic racial type nearly zero percent.

A Jew by birth is a baby who was born into a Jewish home and raised as a Jew. Don't forget the last part.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited by BaalChatzaf
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I understand that, but it's a very very thin line. You praise their culture, and their acheivment - fine. But is a definition of a Jew a cultural one? No, it's race. If I agree or adopt their culture, I am still not a Jew. It's a racial definition. I'll probably get argument on that one, but just answer the question "What proportion of Jews are Jews by birth?" Almost all.

Bob

Really? There are black Jews, white Jews, tan in-between Jews, blond Jews, nappy headed Jews, Jews with dark eyes and Jews with light eyes, Jews with long heads, Jews with short heads. A race? Yes a race. The human race.

Ba'al Chatzaf

That's exactly why attaching race characteristics to Jews (or anyone else for that matter) is foolish - I agree with you. BUT...The way into Judaeism is by BIRTH for ALMOST EVERY JEW! But not all - I understand that. Quibbling on this is not central to what I'm saying. It's not wrong to say that rightly or wrongly being a Jew has a racial connotation - arguably more strongly that culture - however right or wrong that might be. That's why it's dumb, in my opinion to flirt with ascribing the group any negative OR positive characteristics.

Bob

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Jewish power dominates at 'Vanity Fair'

By NATHAN BURSTEIN

October 11, 2007

Jewish World

From the article:

It's a list of "the world's most powerful people," 100 of the bankers and media moguls, publishers and image makers who shape the lives of billions. It's an exclusive, insular club, one whose influence stretches around the globe but is concentrated strategically in the highest corridors of power.

More than half its members, at least by one count, are Jewish.

I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise. A heartfelt congratulations to an amazing culture, the Jews. May all men learn from them the reasons they are so well represented among the top.

Michael

"I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise."

Gotta seriously disagree with that.

The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better.

Bob

If we don't praise the Jews the bigots get an open field to attack them.

--Brant

"If we don't praise the Jews the bigots get an open field to attack them." < Brant

I do not think that that statement is morally defendable.

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I understand that, but it's a very very thin line. You praise their culture, and their acheivment - fine. But is a definition of a Jew a cultural one? No, it's race. If I agree or adopt their culture, I am still not a Jew. It's a racial definition. I'll probably get argument on that one, but just answer the question "What proportion of Jews are Jews by birth?" Almost all.

Bob,

My terms are well defined with this gesture and the principles are crystal clear. Anyone who does not understand the way I did it actually wants to not understand. I don't believe in the normal standards for politically correct self-censorship. Any group that fosteres such achievement among themselves get my praise.

Here is a good example with another group that also is a culture and a race. There was a picture that circulated on the Internet a while back that I found bitterly hilarious (bitter as I am an American and hilarious because it was true). There was a question: Why are the Chinese taking so many hi-tech jobs away from Americans? (This isn't the question, but it was along those lines.) Then there was a college graduation picture of Chinese with the graduates dressed in black robes and other graduation garments. They all looked very solemn and serious. The caption stated the name of the Chinese university and the graduating class. Then there was a picture of a bunch of American college students posing on the steps of a building. They guys were drinking beer and grinning with an arm wrapped around a girl, etc. Several girls were flashing their breasts. There was general mayhem and a party atmosphere. The caption stated the name of the American university and the graduating class.

Are Orientals in general high achievers in America, especially in hi-tech environments? You bet they are and I love it that their parents encourage so much seriousness in studies. That comes from culture (or more specifically, the different cultures). They deserve praise. They have earned it.

Michael

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Jews are vermin (Nazis). Let's exterminate them.

Since Western culture has generally helped to make Jews into Jews as we know them it's not right to set them up to knock them down. Sometimes you (you) can be right and wrong at the same time (me too). Exceptions can illustrate the rule and sometimes exceptions should be made. If not we might not see the extermination camps with our pure focus on individualism. This is a transitory period regarding this subject. There is no special need to praise the Armenians.

--Brant

Edited by Brant Gaede
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Bob,

Are Orientals in general high achievers in America, especially in hi-tech environments? You bet they are and I love it that their parents encourage so much seriousness in studies. They deserve praise. They have earned it.

Michael

Lets look at your terms here. Clear? Yep. Problems? Big time...

You are praising a genetic distinction - RACE (Orientals) for their success by some measure - in this case academic success. Your clarity perfectly reveals the problem.

Here's your reasoning line - crystal clear - just like the Jewish argument.

RACE------>POSITIVE CULTURAL INFLUENCE------->SUCCESS

You still outline a direct connection between RACE and SUCCESS, only you throw culture in there too. You still connect the dots. This is racism and it's very clearly so.

If you do not connect RACE with success as you say, then you'd discuss the 'culture of success' alone on its own merits - where it belongs (in my opinion) and RACE would not enter the discussion because it's irrelevant. I'd think you'd agree that it's irrelevant but then why did you connect the dots - twice now?

This is a racist argument plain and simple, regardless of how you sugar-coat it.

Bob

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