Godless Gold Coins

[syrakusos]

I could not find it here on OL and I was pretty sure I saw it, but it is well known that the US Mint let go a large number of errors in the new Washington Dollars. The collaring failed to work and many were struck without the motto In God We Trust. In fact, no US coins carried this motto before 1863 and as late as 1907-08, the new gold designs by August Saint Gaudens had no motto.

US $20 gold no motto before 1866

US $10 gold no motto before 1866

US $5 gold no motto before 1866.

US "No Motto Five Libs" are an attractive collectible for the person of means -- which I am not. They are fairly common, relatively affordable, with just enough "keys" to give a passionate collector something to pursue. In any case, the Five Lib is about as small as historic gold gets before it falls out of "bullion" and into "numismatics."

The Quarter Eagle $2.50 gold coins lacked IGWT until 1908. The $1 gold never carried the motto. As collectibles, they are fun and affordable, but as bullion, they are pricy. Still, if you have a passion for capitalism (and a job), you might want to treat yourself to one someday.

[Robert Jones]

By all means, I'll run out an get some right now! After all, it's of crucial importance not to trust God. God forbid!

[BaalChatzaf]

By all means, I'll run out an get some right now! After all, it's of crucial importance not to trust God. God forbid!

I am waiting for some dyslexic in the Treasury to stamp "In Dog We Trust" coins. I would love to get a hold of those. Bow Wow! But it will probably not happen. My cries for pleh will go unheeded.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[syrakusos]

I am waiting for some dyslexic in the Treasury to stamp "In Dog We Trust" coins.

In 2000, Portugal released coins with the word Portugal misspelled. The work was done on a CAD station and the design file sent to the CAM cutting tools that made the dies. I do not know how many were struck before the error was halted, but enough that they made circulation and the news. (I was international editor of Coin World at the time.) Well, as it turns out, last week, I saw a cartoon of cliches about the EU -- cooks all English, generous as the Dutch, famous as a Luxembouger... -- and for Portugal, the jab was computer literacy.

[syrakusos]

By all means, I'll run out an get some right now! After all, it's of crucial importance not to trust God. God forbid!

Perhaps not, but it is of crucial importance to separate church and state. Here and now in the USA, the religious freedoms of the First Amendment are not incorporated to the states. In nine US states, you can be denied a the opportunity to run for office or a seat on a jury or the ability to be called as a witness if you are an atheist. In most of those nine states (for instance, Pennsylvania) freedom of religion only applies to those who profess a belief in God, which means: in those states freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.

At the federal level, there can be no religious test for office, but at the state level there can be and in nine states, there is.

If you wish to trust in God (or Dog) that is your choice. For whom does IGWT speak? All the people? Clearly not. About 3 million are self-declared atheists and other 3 million are self-declared agnostics and yet another 30 million do not attend any house of worship. Does IGWT speak for the government or for the Congress or for the "majority" however defined?

[Chris Grieb]

Do any of these states enforce these rules?

[Robert Jones]

By all means, I'll run out an get some right now! After all, it's of crucial importance not to trust God. God forbid!

I am waiting for some dyslexic in the Treasury to stamp "In Dog We Trust" coins. I would love to get a hold of those. Bow Wow! But it will probably not happen. My cries for pleh will go unheeded.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I wish God was a dog, honestly! That would mean -- if man was created in the image of God -- we would be the most trustworthy and loyal mammals on the planet. Man would be man's best friend!

[Robert Jones]

By all means, I'll run out an get some right now! After all, it's of crucial importance not to trust God. God forbid!

Perhaps not, but it is of crucial importance to separate church and state.

Oh, please! What church is that? How does "In God We Trust" *really* impinge on your freedoms?

What is tearing this nation apart is the Puritanical impulse, and your original post was an example of it. Decency and common sense fly out the window when Puritans, ever armed with the wish to impose their will on society, seek to act as boards of censorship, and expunge every trace and mention of God's name from the public record. Or, in the case of evangelicals, to go around saying bilge like "We have freedom of religion, but not freedom *from* religion. So, yes, I agree with you there.

But only so far as saying if you don't want to believe in God, I'm not going to force you.

It is silly that anyone needs to be "protected" from seeing the word "God" on our coinage. When I was an Objectivist and an atheist, back in the day, I didn't have that kind of attitude that I needed to have my atheism validated by the State.

The motto "In God We Trust" IS our national motto, and it is meant to represent that, not state-imposed religion.

Take that off our coins, and what are we left with? "In Politicians We Trust"? Even when I was an atheist, I placed more trust in the imaginary superbeing than the corrupt fiends who run things on Capitol Hill and the White House.

When the ACLU seeks to force the city of Las Cruces, New Mexico, to remove the three crosses from their city seal (the NAME of the town means "The Crosses," for Chrissakes!), is that protecting the rights of atheists and agnostic and members of other faiths, or is it actually imposing the tyranny of the minority?

The ACLU, which once defended civil liberties in the land, is dead set on stamping out the free exercise of Christianity in the public square.

As an American, I am saddened at the death of the "live and let live" attitude most people had, and respect for both religious people as well as atheists. What we have now are a bunch of rabid secular humanist bigots and monstrosities like Rev. James Dobson, all trying to impose their will on the people. Mainly, because they don't trust the democratic process to settle those issues.

Hey, I would die on the barricades to defend your right to run as an atheist for public office in any and all of those nine states, friend. Should you form a 501©3 or legal defense fund for such a purpose, you can count on me for $1000.00, and that's a fact.

But, only if I can keep "In God We Trust" on our money.

Otherwise, I don't see why I should defend your right to free speech if you violate my right as an American to have our nation's motto on our coinage.

Democracy requires give-and-take, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

We ALL have to live with things the government does that offend us, or that make us uncomfortable.

Atheists ain't any more priveleged than religious folks in this regard.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Robert Jones

[BaalChatzaf]

Otherwise, I don't see why I should defend your right to free speech if you violate my right as an American to have our nation's motto on our coinage.

If striking coins were a private matter I would agree with you. But the Government is the one who makes the coins which believers and atheists alike are compelled to use in payments of debt public and -private-. Contracts requiring payment in gold are illegal in the U.S. We are compelled to use Greenies whether we like it or not.

As long as the money is common currency and legally compelled, I just as soon would not have it bear the stamp of any particular religion, sect or philosophy. I not only believe that State and Church should be separated, but State and Metaphysics also. The Government has only two proper warrants: keeping good order, and protecting rights (the two being closely related). The government is not the overseer of our conscience or our ethics. Only our overt behavior and then only to prevent or punish unwarranted aggression.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

In Rand We Trust?

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

In Rand We Trust?

Michael

In South Africa (in times past) the KrugerRAND was a major hit. Now it is just a Golden Oldie.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[magnummaid]

Not to get off topic, I think gold rocks , but Robert , what arm of the military do you/did you serve ?

Signed, Curious (or Gigi, same thing)

Edited October 15, 2007 by Gigi P. Morton

[Robert Jones]

Not to get off topic, I think gold rocks , but Robert , what arm of the military do you/did you serve ?

Signed, Curious (or Gigi, same thing)

Gold especially rocks, and my favorite gold coins have no mention of God on them (this is coincidental). They are the Mexican 50 Peso coins minted around the 1940s, simply gorgeous coins, right up there with the St. Gaudens $20 double eagle.

I served in the 1st Forward Light Infantry Secret Squirrel Psyops Battalion Brigade Regimental Command of the Royal Army of the People's Republic of Freedonia.

Naw, I just made that up. Actually, I served in the U.S. Army, U.S. Army National Guard, and New York State Guard. Currently I am on a V.A. disability pension and chilling out with the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary.

Why do you want to know? Are you trying to steal my identity? ;)

Edited October 15, 2007 by Robert Jones

[magnummaid]

Not to get off topic, I think gold rocks , but Robert , what arm of the military do you/did you serve ?

Signed, Curious (or Gigi, same thing)

Gold especially rocks, and my favorite gold coins have no mention of God on them (this is coincidental). They are the Mexican 50 Peso coins minted around the 1940s, simply gorgeous coins, right up there with the St. Gaudens $20 double eagle.

I served in the 1st Forward Light Infantry Secret Squirrel Psyops Battalion Brigade Regimental Command of the Royal Army of the People's Republic of Freedonia.

Naw, I just made that up. Actually, I served in the U.S. Army, U.S. Army National Guard, and New York State Guard. Currently I am on a V.A. disability pension and chilling out with the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary.

Why do you want to know? Are you trying to steal my identity? ;)

No, no identity theft. But by the way, what's your SSN ? And where do you keep these coins ? Just curios... :thumbsup: LOL

Thanks for answering my question. I lost a pile on the stock market and definitely want to persue more gold ! Those coins sound lovely.

I'm going to see ifI can look at them w/ google. Did your battalion use wrist rockets on those nasty squirrels? hee hee

Disability ? Hope it's nothing horriblely discomforting...Thank you again for responding.

[Judith]

Perhaps not, but it is of crucial importance to separate church and state. Here and now in the USA, the religious freedoms of the First Amendment are not incorporated to the states. In nine US states, you can be denied a the opportunity to run for office or a seat on a jury or the ability to be called as a witness if you are an atheist. In most of those nine states (for instance, Pennsylvania) freedom of religion only applies to those who profess a belief in God, which means: in those states freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.

At the federal level, there can be no religious test for office, but at the state level there can be and in nine states, there is.

Has that ever been tested in court? My understanding was that the freedoms guaranteed by the federal constitution had been held to apply to the states by some U.S. Supreme Court case. The issue probably wasn't the same -- it might have had something to do with slavery.

Do you know what are the other eight states?

I'm rather surprised to know that Pennsylvania is one of them. Their state court swearing-in ritual did not invoke "so help me God", unlike some other states', at least as of 20-some years ago. There was no Bible on which one had to swear, nothing -- just a simple civil affirmation.

Judith

[syrakusos]

My understanding was that the freedoms guaranteed by the federal constitution had been held to apply to the states by some U.S. Supreme Court case. The issue probably wasn't the same -- it might have had something to do with slavery.

Do you know what are the other eight states?

I started a new topic under POLITICS for Atheism and the Law.

To answer your questions, Judith, if you read the Constitution of the United States, you will see that the 14th quotes the 5th verbatim. That incorporated those rights to the states. Since then, several Supreme Court decisions have incorporated to the states other rights guaranteed under federal law: right to counsel, freedom from torture while in custody, 6th Amendment rights to juveniles, etc.

That said, the Second Amendment has never been incorporated to the states. Your right to bear and keep arms only limits the federal government, not your state govenment.

Also, as we see, freedom of religion as defined for federal law (a wall between church and state, in the words of Thomas Jefferson), does not apply to the states.

After the War Between the States, the southern states drew up new constitututions and Pennsylvania's was a model. So, Pennsylvania's limits on religious non-compliance went to Maryland, Arkansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas. Massachusetts had tax-supported churches as late as 1831. By the way, for comparison, Switzerland still has cantons where some municipalities ( or "communes") have tax-supported churches whose clergy work according to civic regulation. That said, the current federal constitution is quite clear about one's personal right not to particiipate in religion.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Michael E. Marotta