What the Pope Sees (and Doesn't) in America

[Barbara Branden]

You won't quite believe which two American writers the Pope has read!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...;pagewanted=all

Barbara

[Brant Gaede]

You won't quite believe which two American writers the Pope has read!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...;pagewanted=all

Barbara

The dead Pope.

--Brant

[Chris Grieb]

Benedict the XVI is pretty well read. Has he mentioned any American writers?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Barbara,

Pope John Paul II read Atlas Shrugged?

Cool.

(Incidentally, this article was first published October 1, 1995.)

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Barbara,

Pope John Paul II read Atlas Shrugged?

Cool.

(Incidentally, this article was first published October 1, 1995.)

Michael

Aside from -Mein Kampf-, what does the current Pope (das Panzer-Pope) , Benny 16 read?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

Bob; Do you have any evidence for that charge?

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob; Do you have any evidence for that charge?

No. It was a cheap shot. Mea Culpa! Sometimes I just cannot help myself. When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Shame on me double. I should have more self control.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Judith]

When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Ratzinger was in Hitler Youth, but as I understand it, he was sort of drafted and wasn't an enthusiastic participant. I've posted elsewhere about him; he seems to be a pretty good guy.

I was raised RC and was never taught any anti-Semitic Christ-killer stuff. In fact, my mother used to tell me I should marry a nice Jewish boy because "They treat their women like queens!"

Judith

[Alfonso Jones]

Barbara,

Pope John Paul II read Atlas Shrugged?

Cool.

(Incidentally, this article was first published October 1, 1995.)

Michael

Can anyone point to any effects of this reading? Citations in things he wrote, allusion in a speech, ideas with a reasonably clear Rand-linkage, etc.?

Alfonso

[Alfonso Jones]

Bob; Do you have any evidence for that charge?

No. It was a cheap shot. Mea Culpa! Sometimes I just cannot help myself. When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Shame on me double. I should have more self control.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I recall that at the time of his being named Pope it came out that he was in Hitler Youth. I do NOT know how much that says about him. As I have been led to understand it, lots of people were in Hitler Youth who had no commitment to the Nazi movement.

Alfonso

[Chris Grieb]

Bob; I very sorry you were beaten up by RC kids in your misspent youth. Perhaps it explains everything.

[BaalChatzaf]

When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Ratzinger was in Hitler Youth, but as I understand it, he was sort of drafted and wasn't an enthusiastic participant. I've posted elsewhere about him; he seems to be a pretty good guy.

I was raised RC and was never taught any anti-Semitic Christ-killer stuff. In fact, my mother used to tell me I should marry a nice Jewish boy because "They treat their women like queens!"

Judith

You are post Vatican-II perhaps. Or you were educated after Pope John 23 of blessed memory (I mean that sincerely) did away with the Baltimore Catechism, the one that excoriated the perfidious Jews for killing the Savior. In my own experience I have noticed that Catholics brought up after 1965 seem to be untainted by anti-semitism. My own experience was was in the 1940's and 1950's where I was, on more than one occasion, beaten up for personally driving the nails into the Flesh of the Savior. But this was very much before John 23 let some fresh air into the Catholic Church.

Pope John 23 was what we call a -mensch- in Yiddish. An upright, decent and righteous man. While he was Bishop Rancolli, he was busy trying to undo the damage that his boss, Pope Pius 12 was doing to the Jews. Bishop Rancolli at great peril to his life was forging documents which enabled Jews to escape the clutches of their Nazi persecutors. If there is a heaven and a world to come (I doubt it) I am sure Bishop Rancolli is receiving just and due praise for his righteousness.

It is interesting what you said about your mom. One of my daughters in law was brought up Catholic. Her sister (a lovely young woman) also married a Jewish man. When my son asked me if it were o.k. to marry, Sue, then my perspective d.i.l, I replied get her while you can. She is a Gift from heaven. What a great young lady she is. My in laws in that family are the salt of the earth and there is no taint anywhere in their clan. Miracles still happen.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Steve Gagne]

Bob; Do you have any evidence for that charge?

No. It was a cheap shot. Mea Culpa! Sometimes I just cannot help myself. When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Shame on me double. I should have more self control.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Bob --

Funny. Growing up, I got the shit beaten out of me for being an atheist.

Then I grew up & after some changes became a pentecostal preacherman. When I finally followed what I knew I was supposed to do & converted to catholicism (to make my wife happy), Pope John Paul II died. Guess it killed him to have me a catholic. Maybe if I hadn't he'd still be alive. Naaaaahhh......

But he was the only one who could make it possible for me. Oh well.

At the time JPII died, I really felt concerned that "the Rat" was going to be named Pope. I had the same response you did. But after some deep thought and meditation (Xians call it prayer), this was the answer I got:

Do you remember when Ronald Reagan was your President? Do you remember what they called his presidency? Yes, it was called the 'Teflon Presidency' -- and do you remember why? It was because, no matter what went wrong, nobody could make anything 'stick' to him. Like with a CIA operative, he always maintained 'plausible deniability' for any ill effects of his chosen policies.

Likewise with Pope John Paul II. He always had a 'Teflon Papacy' before Me, and before you. And the reason is that he had Cardinal Ratzinger to serve as his foil, and to take the heat for any unpopular pronouncements. John Paul, in all his actions, took credit for being 'John Paul the Great' -- the Apostle of Love, while Cardinal Ratzinger was regarded as a wizened old fool. They played an effective game of 'good cop - bad cop' with the whole world for more than a quarter century -- and pulled it off successfully.

But now John Paul has passed, and Cardinal Ratzinger must find a new way, as Benedict XVI. Pray for him now, that he may find the strength necessary to always speak the Truth in My name. For that is the commitment of every one who takes the chair of Peter, which he makes before My face.

[Robert Jones]

Bob; Do you have any evidence for that charge?

No. It was a cheap shot. Mea Culpa! Sometimes I just cannot help myself. When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Shame on me double. I should have more self control.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I agree with Chris, esp. as a Catholic.

However, you are tops at busting chops, and Gawd how people take themselves SOOOOO seriously on blogs.

I mean, they're just BLOGS! You can dish it out, but you can take it as well.

From this Catholic to you, Maazel Tov!

You make it interesting

[Robert Jones]

When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge.

Ratzinger was in Hitler Youth, but as I understand it, he was sort of drafted and wasn't an enthusiastic participant. I've posted elsewhere about him; he seems to be a pretty good guy.

I was raised RC and was never taught any anti-Semitic Christ-killer stuff. In fact, my mother used to tell me I should marry a nice Jewish boy because "They treat their women like queens!"

Judith

You are post Vatican-II perhaps. Or you were educated after Pope John 23 of blessed memory (I mean that sincerely) did away with the Baltimore Catechism, the one that excoriated the perfidious Jews for killing the Savior. In my own experience I have noticed that Catholics brought up after 1965 seem to be untainted by anti-semitism. My own experience was was in the 1940's and 1950's where I was, on more than one occasion, beaten up for personally driving the nails into the Flesh of the Savior. But this was very much before John 23 let some fresh air into the Catholic Church.

Pope John 23 was what we call a -mensch- in Yiddish. An upright, decent and righteous man. While he was Bishop Rancolli, he was busy trying to undo the damage that his boss, Pope Pius 12 was doing to the Jews. Bishop Rancolli at great peril to his life was forging documents which enabled Jews to escape the clutches of their Nazi persecutors. If there is a heaven and a world to come (I doubt it) I am sure Bishop Rancolli is receiving just and due praise for his righteousness.

It is interesting what you said about your mom. One of my daughters in law was brought up Catholic. Her sister (a lovely young woman) also married a Jewish man. When my son asked me if it were o.k. to marry, Sue, then my perspective d.i.l, I replied get her while you can. She is a Gift from heaven. What a great young lady she is. My in laws in that family are the salt of the earth and there is no taint anywhere in their clan. Miracles still happen.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You should read about what David Mamet says about Gentiles marrying Jews: Often it is the Goy who brings the lapsed Jew back to his/her faith. In his case, lovely shiksa wife Rebecca Pigeon.

I became a Catholic after being an atheist. My wife converted me. She began life a Buddhist, but after move from Korea to USA, became a believer in the one, true faith: America.

[studiodekadent]

Pope Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler Youth, but to my knowlege membership in the HY was forced rather than voluntary. Certainly I don't think there is significant proof that Ratzinger is or was actually a Nazi, although given many of the stances he has expressed, I would (and I think most Objectivists would) allege he is philosophically pretty close to the statist-collectivist philosophies as a whole. Certainly his political stances arent pro-enlightenment (nor is his epistemological or ethical stance).

I certainly agree with Baal that the Catholic's former stance regarding all Jews as collectively responsible for killing Christ is utterly abominable. I hate that idea for the same reason I hate Original Sin: both are forms of collective guilt. Strangely, an observation: racism against one race within humanity (like Jews-as-Christ-killers-ism) is seen as evil, racism against the whole human race (Original Sin) is seen as a morality of mercy and love.

And Robert, you may be a Catholic but by your own admission you aren't exactly the embodiment of Catholic values. You are a Deist, Thomist, and you openly admit your preference for Catholicism is mostly because you believe that any God must have 'good taste.' Personally I would classify you as a Deist with a fondness for pomp and circumstance, so when I attack Catholicism (which I do quite often, but trust me I hate all religions equally), I do not include you in the 'target zone,' so please dont get offended.

[John Dailey]

~ His views on Jews (aka Gibson's), and his HY association aside (though here, methinks, he became attracted to 'righteous'-oriented authority-wielding), as per the thread's title concern: he sees America as a bona-fide threat to his influence over his flock, akin to how Muslim leaders in Iran, etc see such, though with less overt hate.

~ If not happened yet, one of his later bull(s), nuncios, etc. WILL associate America with Satan/Lucifer; wait and see.

LLAP

J:D

PS: Who knows what he 'fleetingly' got from reading (skimming? glossing through Cliff's?) Rand? Nothing converting, I'm sure; merely a deeper resentment basis for a larger motivation to complain about 'secular'/humanistic non-authoritarian moralities.

[Robert Jones]

Pope Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler Youth, but to my knowlege membership in the HY was forced rather than voluntary. Certainly I don't think there is significant proof that Ratzinger is or was actually a Nazi, although given many of the stances he has expressed, I would (and I think most Objectivists would) allege he is philosophically pretty close to the statist-collectivist philosophies as a whole. Certainly his political stances arent pro-enlightenment (nor is his epistemological or ethical stance).

I certainly agree with Baal that the Catholic's former stance regarding all Jews as collectively responsible for killing Christ is utterly abominable. I hate that idea for the same reason I hate Original Sin: both are forms of collective guilt. Strangely, an observation: racism against one race within humanity (like Jews-as-Christ-killers-ism) is seen as evil, racism against the whole human race (Original Sin) is seen as a morality of mercy and love.

And Robert, you may be a Catholic but by your own admission you aren't exactly the embodiment of Catholic values. You are a Deist, Thomist, and you openly admit your preference for Catholicism is mostly because you believe that any God must have 'good taste.' Personally I would classify you as a Deist with a fondness for pomp and circumstance, so when I attack Catholicism (which I do quite often, but trust me I hate all religions equally), I do not include you in the 'target zone,' so please dont get offended.

No, please by all means include me in the target zone: I am a Catholic, and am quite willing to take the flak alongside my faithful brethren, who are better Catholics than I.

I don't hate all religions equally -- that's a cop-out. I hate, above all others, the religion that ran two jumbo jets into the World Trade Center towers and another into the Pentagon. Most others, I find mildly annoying.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Robert,

If that is your standard for overall hatred of a religion, shouldn't Catholicism have been abolished with the Spanish Inquisition?

Do you hate all of Islam or just the faction that lead to the barbarity (basically Islam + Nazism)? (See the discussion of Bernard Lewis, here for instance, to clarify this thought.)

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Robert,

If that is your standard for overall hatred of a religion, shouldn't Catholicism have been abolished with the Spanish Inquisition?

Do you hate all of Islam or just the faction that lead to the barbarity (basically Islam + Nazism)? (See the discussion of Bernard Lewis, here for instance, to clarify this thought.)

Michael

Islam is barbaric. Muslims are civilized to the extent that they fail to be devout Muslims, and instead are reasonable human beings. A similar remark can be made regarding devout Christians and Jews. A Muslim who really takes his religion really seriously is committed to Jihad and Martyrdom. Which makes him dangerous to human life. The only safe Muslims are wishy washy Muslims who will be condemned by the truly Faithful Muslims and no doubt marked for death. That is why you don't find many reasonable Muslims who speak up. To speak up is to put one's self in the Ranks of Death. Muslims who want to stay alive are either truly faithful or very careful and quiet.

Ask yourself: where was the Million American Muslim March against Terrorism following 9/11. When and where did it take place? ---- Deathly Silence-----

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Was there a ten Muslim march? Maybe yes and maybe no.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Your objections about devoutness apply to Christians and Jews, i.e., that they are civilized to the extent that they fail to be devout. But I will fill in the blank for your oversimplification: They (meaning Muslims, Christians and Jews) are civilized to the extent that they fail to be devout to the more barbaric parts of their respective Holy Writings.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

When you don't have separation of church and state you will get barbarity for you will never get rule of law, only rule by force.

--Brant

Edited October 12, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

I agree.

There are presently several very strong movements in various parts of the world among Muslims to adopt separation of church and state (and individual rights), yet continue practicing Islam. Are you against those Muslims?

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Brant,

I agree.

There are presently several very strong movements in various parts of the world among Muslims to adopt separation of church and state (and individual rights), yet continue practicing Islam. Are you against those Muslims?

Michael

No, but I don't know them.

--Brant