"MY NAME IS SHARI"

[Barbara Branden]

Judith, thank you for your post about the land supposedly "taken" from the Arabs by the Jews. You said what needed to be said.. I could not say it. I have had too many years of discussing and arguing the issue and other issues related to Israel and the Palestinians, too many years of facing an impenetrable wall of bias -- as contained in many of the books Dustan is reading, not one of which argues the case for Israel -- to be able to discuss it except at the top of my lungs. I fully understand that name-calling is counter-productive, and I will not engage in it. I will carry on my fight in other ways.

And it is a fight. A fight for my life. As I watched the president of Iran speaking the other day, I was very aware that he -- like all Muslim fundamentalists, who may number in the millions -- wants me dead, me, specifically, as a Jew, any Jew, rich or poor, intelligent or stupid, a Nobel Prize winner or a clerk at 7/11, religious or an atheist, Israeli or American or Chinese. And when I hear discussions, these days, of the members of Hamas as "freedom fiighters," of the Palestinians having been driven from their ancestral homes by the Israelis, of Israeli "terrorism," I feel that I am expected to give cool and disinterested intellectual arguments for my right to my life. I cannot do it. The prospect sickens me. I cannot pretend that rational argumemts will make a difference to a stance that is, at its root, profoundly ahistorical and irratiomal.

Barbara

[Alfonso Jones]

Where exactly does it lay it all out.

. . .

The Palestinians (Muslim and Christians) revolted at what was Jewish occupation of their land. They lost and had even more property taken from them.

What is moral about this?

I haven't been here for a few days, and Bob (Ba'al) has addressed a lot of the points I would have made. I'd like to emphasize a few points:

--the Jews who emigrated to "Palestine" BOUGHT the land on which they settled from Arabs who were more than willing to sell it to them. It became theirs by right. They didn't take it by force.

--the land in the Middle East was all part of the Ottoman Empire. The land was divided up between Britain, France, and I forget who else, who then arbitrarily divided it up into Palestine, Iraq, whatever. (Does present-day Iraq make sense, given the tribal identities of its inhabitants? Of course not. The Europeans didn't care when they created it.) Palestine was Britain's.

--Britain was originally going to give ALL of "Palestine" to the Jews. Then they changed their mind and gave over 75 percent of it to the Arabs, and less than 25 percent of it to the Jews in response to Arab outrage. The Arabs still weren't satisfied and went to war over the issue.

(many items clipped from quote to save space...)

A good book on the subject is Alan Dershowitz's "The Case for Israel".

Judith

Judith -

Many thanks for an excellent and fact-based post.

Alfonso

[BaalChatzaf]

I remember reading about this history of broken treaties and being shocked and horrified by it again and again. "How could they DO that? I kept asking myself. It finally sank in for me that it was racism. It had never occurred to me that Americans, people living in what I believe to be the most honest country in the history of the earth, could keep doing things like this until I realized that they didn't think that the people with whom they were making the agreements weren't fully human. I don't think any of us living today can put ourselves into that mindset.

Judith

Don't be too sure about that. The demonizing of a hated enemy is very easy and it is as natural as breathing. Humans have been doing it for thousands of years. Killing someone like one's self is difficult. The solution: regard the proposed victim as Totally Other. The violence follows quickly and with no difficulty.

U.S. Marines who fought the Japanese in the Pacific campaigns of WW2 developed a profound hatred for their enemy. They hardly consider "the Japs" as human beings. There was an informal policy of not taking prisoners. If you are fighting an enemy who thinks nothing of mutilating or cutting up disarmed people, you will have no trouble whatsoever to think that your foe is not human. No trouble at all.

I had relatives who fought in WW2 and they told me very frankly that the -enjoyed- killing the Jap Bastards. They looked forward to it. I had an uncle who was a bomb aimer for the eighth air force. He toggled off 500 and 1000 lb. high explosive bombs from his B-17. He said he was happy to do it and he regarded himself as Hitler's worst nightmare - a Jew with a Norden bomb sight. He figured the fewer Germans that survived the war, the less trouble we would have with them later on.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

I remember reading about this history of broken treaties and being shocked and horrified by it again and again. "How could they DO that? I kept asking myself. It finally sank in for me that it was racism. It had never occurred to me that Americans, people living in what I believe to be the most honest country in the history of the earth, could keep doing things like this until I realized that they didn't think that the people with whom they were making the agreements weren't fully human. I don't think any of us living today can put ourselves into that mindset.

Judith

Don't be too sure about that. The demonizing of a hated enemy is very easy and it is as natural as breathing. Humans have been doing it for thousands of years. Killing someone like one's self is difficult. The solution: regard the proposed victim as Totally Other. The violence follows quickly and with no difficulty.

U.S. Marines who fought the Japanese in the Pacific campaigns of WW2 developed a profound hatred for their enemy. They hardly consider "the Japs" as human beings. There was an informal policy of not taking prisoners. If you are fighting an enemy who thinks nothing of mutilating or cutting up disarmed people, you will have no trouble whatsoever to think that your foe is not human. No trouble at all.

I had relatives who fought in WW2 and they told me very frankly that the -enjoyed- killing the Jap Bastards. They looked forward to it. I had an uncle who was a bomb aimer for the eighth air force. He toggled off 500 and 1000 lb. high explosive bombs from his B-17. He said he was happy to do it and he regarded himself as Hitler's worst nightmare - a Jew with a Norden bomb sight. He figured the fewer Germans that survived the war, the less trouble we would have with them later on.

Ba'al Chatzaf

When you are in combat your primitive "alligator" brain rules. It's similar to "road rage." Today when I think of Pearl Harbor and what the Japanese--I want to write "Japs"--did to almost completely defenseless American soldiers, sailors and Marines who thought they were at peace--what they did to "my" battleship the USS Arizona now a sacred tomb for a thousand of her crew--I want to kill, to annihilate that enemy. And that's what Americans did then. To lose that feeling would have been an expression of psychological collapse and defeat. I never felt that strongly about Vietnam and was happy to return alive and get out of the army, go back to school and go to New York to study Objectivism (and then came "The Break"). I would never have done that in WWII. It is interesting that the pervasive racism in the U.S. toward the Japanese in the 1930s didn't survive WWII. It's as if the boil had been drained. The same thing happened to American anti-Semitism (which both my nationalistic, right-wing father explicitly and FDR implicitly sanctioned) which dissipated in the face of the Holocaust. Americans, ironically to the Germans who dehumanized the Jews, could only see the wretched humanity left over.

--Brant

Edited September 29, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Brant Gaede]

Why does America love Israel? Why do many Americans love Jews? Because Americans are the Jews of the world. They inspire these Americans because they are so life-loving, so human. These Americans naturally want to be more Jewish. They'll take the Bar Mitzvah, but leave that other thing except for, uh, medical reasons. Unfortunately, that's not the way it works. Anyway, when the Muslims attack Americans they think they are attacking Jews, I think. Their whole trick is to wage war against America while hoping America doesn't figure out what they are up to--that America is at war with them (instead of "terrorists").

--Brant

Edited September 29, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Judith,

There is a very delicate matter that needs to be mentioned in this affair, that is, if we are seeking truth and not just sides. The matter is racism.

You stated in a post above that you were horrified that the US could engage in treaty after treaty with American Indians and simply break them because the white people were racists. This issue, quite bluntly, permeates the Israeli/Palestinian mess.

After doing some of my own research on all this, I come out in favor of the Jews—strongly—but not for the same reasons you gave. (And, to be honest, I have a lot more reading in sight.) The story of one side having honor, dignity, productivity, etc., against the the other side that is lazy, dishonest, murderous, because that's the simply way these people are borders on racism, and it is racism all the way down to the fundamentals. The other side's militant view about Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, etc., ditto. Pure unadulterated racism.

The simple fact is that each person as an individual does and can choose his values. Just because a person is born a Jew does not mean he is a superior species of human being (as he was taught by religious myths, which say he belongs to a chosen people, i.e., master race), nor does it mean that he is Satan incarnate because people hear that in mosques. The same kind of observation holds for Palestinians. All of them, both Jews and Palestinians, are simply human beings—no more and no less.

Racism-wise, here is one of the main reasons I see the Israeli/Palestinian mess extending without end, and it is not as commented as it should be for some reason. It is the intellectual/political cancer of Nazi leftovers and the injection this gives to local antisemitism. (Antisemitism was not transposed on the region by Nazism, but Nazism gave Islamic Middle East antisemitism formal legitimacy and seed funding that has resulted in some pretty deep roots that are alive and well today.)

In another thread, I linked to a free online video called Blaming the Jews (see here) that deals with antisemitism in the Muslim world and I have presented some very easy material to digest, both videos and articles, about the Nazi-Islamist connection (see here and the following few posts). There is even a derogatory name for this culture: Nazislamism.

One thing is clear to me. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini (dear friend he was of Adolf Hitler)—along with the Muslim Brotherhood and others—was well-funded by Nazi money before the oil money made this unnecessary. His base of operations was always Palestine, regardless of where he lived (usually nearby, whether Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt , etc.). Even after the end of WWII, he became President of the short-lived All-Palestine Government. Because of his collaboration with the Nazis he eventually lost prestige, but this guy died in 1974, setting things up and spewing antisemitic venom until the end. He, his collaborators and his progeny put many antisemitic structures into place that persist until the present.

Incidentally, Nazism even has its finger in the Salafi version of Islam of Saudi Arabia (see the articles I linked) that is presently taught in Europe and the USA. Here's another jaw-dropper. Why were the Arab Nazis not brought to justice despite all the Jews they killed? Because the English and American secret service used them as agents against Communism after WWII. How's them apples?

There will never be a resolution to this crisis until post-Nazism is completely dismantled in the Middle East, especially the formal antisemitism that has resulted.

ALL racism, all of it, on both sides, both for and against whatever race, needs to be combated and denounced. Racism is the main reason this conflict drags on. Until that happens, we can be told that this person invades, that person is a suicide bomber, this person killed that, that person eats babies, whatever, but the plain fact is that treaties will continue to be made and broken on both sides, just as the US Government did with the Indians—and the killing will go on—until the rampant racism over there is isolated and attacked as a universal principle.

Racism is evil, evil, evil. Every damn bit of it.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

ALL racism, all of it, on both sides, both for and against whatever race, needs to be combated and denounced. Racism is the main reason this conflict drags on. Until that happens, we can be told that this person invades, that person is a suicide bomber, this person killed that, that person eats babies, whatever, but the plain fact is that treaties will continue to be made and broken on both sides, just as the US Government did with the Indians—and the killing will go on—until the rampant racism over there is isolated and attacked as a universal principle.

Racism is evil, evil, evil. Every damn bit of it.

Michael

I'm glad you found moral equivalence in racism. Now find it on the positive side of the ledger. Good luck. You'll find it but the scales won't work right.

--Brant

Edited September 29, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

(Deleted)

Brant,

What do numbers have to do with the evil of racism? Racism is despicable no matter who promotes it.

Michael

EDIT: Brant. There is no such thing as taking a non-German Nazi sympathizer who killed Jews and FUNDING HIM instead of hanging him because his antisemitism was not as bad and Nazi antisemitism. There is a royal screw-up by that name, but not a legitimate moral policy. Our secret services made that mistake. Now look what we've got (Islamism). There is no good or less evil racism. Talk ledger. Talk whatever you want. ALL racism is evil.

[Brant Gaede]

Please, I deleted that. Our posts crossed.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Michael,

When did you edit? There's no date and time stamp. This is confusing. Anyway, there is no racism on the positive side of the ledger.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

I have not figured out the time stamp thing for edits on this forum program myself.

You say there is no Israeli racism over this issue? Check the following link out. This is one I know of and it is growing steadily. There is a lot more out there, but I prefer to avoid giving these organizations free advertising, unless it is to denounce them. (That goes for Muslim racists as well.)

Samson Blinded: A Machiavellian Perspective on the Middle East Conflict

That is about as racist as it comes, on par with the antisemitism of the Islamists. If it were not growing, I would not even bother mentioning it. But since it is growing, it is an excellent example of where the intellectual battle lies: racism in general.

I am against racism as a proper method for mankind to conduct its affairs. The racism needs to stop. All of it. The rest will follow easily if that happens.

For the record and it should not need to be said, I do not consider the Israeli government a racist organization.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

That is about as racist as it comes, on par with the antisemitism of the Islamists. If it were not growing, I would not even bother mentioning it. But since it is growing, it is an excellent example of where the intellectual battle lies: racism in general.

I am against racism as a proper method for mankind to conduct its affairs. The racism needs to stop. All of it. The rest will follow easily if that happens.

Preferring one's own Flesh and Blood to the flesh and blood of others is

1. natural

2. a survival characteristic in the Darwinian sense

3. the origin of racism, which is the preference writ large

Racism will never ever ever ever end, unless of course we are attacked by Aliens from Outer Space in which case Racism will be directed toward the Aliens.

Hatred of the Other has made the Human Race great and strong. Why do you think there are no Neanderthals around? Why do you suppose the aboriginals of the Earth live in wretched squalor if they live at all (don't forget how the Tasmanians were rendered extinct). Why do you suppose we can render multiple species extinct without losing a wink of sleep? We are a nasty lot, we are. Humans are the smartest, baddest apes in The Monkey House. It is what makes us strong.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Brant,

I have not figured out the time stamp thing for edits on this forum program myself.

You say there is no Israeli racism over this issue? Check the following link out. This is one I know of and it is growing steadily. There is a lot more out there, but I prefer to avoid giving these organizations free advertising, unless it is to denounce them. (That goes for Muslim racists as well.)

Samson Blinded: A Machiavellian Perspective on the Middle East Conflict

That is about as racist as it comes, on par with the antisemitism of the Islamists. If it were not growing, I would not even bother mentioning it. But since it is growing, it is an excellent example of where the intellectual battle lies: racism in general.

I am against racism as a proper method for mankind to conduct its affairs. The racism needs to stop. All of it. The rest will follow easily if that happens.

For the record and it should not need to be said, I do not consider the Israeli government a racist organization.

Michael

Of course there is Israeli racism. The racism directed toward Israeli Jews and Israel is much, much worse.

--Brant

[tjohnson]

Racism will never ever ever ever end, unless of course we are attacked by Aliens from Outer Space in which case Racism will be directed toward the Aliens.

Hatred of the Other has made the Human Race great and strong.

There is a contradiction here. If we are all part of the HUMAN race then it makes no sense to speak of 'racism' directed at others of the same race.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Of course there is Israeli racism. The racism directed toward Israeli Jews and Israel is much, much worse.

Brant,

Do you mean much more evil or simply more people in your "much, much worse"? I agree there are more Arabs in the world than Jews and I also stated and documented the Nazi organizing factor of Islamist antisemitism. In those senses, I agree that it is worse. But don't be fooled into thinking that Israeli racists cannot organize or are not doing so. They can and they are and what they are doing is growing.

It's really simple and older than Moses. Two wrongs do not make a right. In terms of evil, a person killed or maimed by a racist is just as dead or maimed regardless of which race was being scapegoated.

(I cannot dignify Bob's contemptible sophistry defending racism with a response. If that turns into a repeat-fest, I will start deleting at whim. That is a line. I refuse to debate whether racism is good or evil or host such a debate. Racism is unspeakably evil. People can speak that crap elsewhere.)

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Of course there is Israeli racism. The racism directed toward Israeli Jews and Israel is much, much worse.

Brant,

Do you mean much more evil or simply more people in your "much, much worse"? I agree there are more Arabs in the world than Jews and I also stated and documented the Nazi organizing factor of Islamist antisemitism. In those senses, I agree that it is worse. But don't be fooled into thinking that Israeli racists cannot organize or are not doing so. They can and they are and what they are doing is growing.

It's really simple and older than Moses. Two wrongs do not make a right. In terms of evil, a person killed or maimed by a racist is just as dead or maimed regardless of which race was being scapegoated.

(I cannot dignify Bob's contemptible sophistry defending racism with a response. If that turns into a repeat-fest, I will start deleting at whim. That is a line. I refuse to debate whether racism is good or evil or host such a debate. Racism is unspeakably evil. People can speak that crap elsewhere.)

Michael

Both, of course, but generally speaking. Any particular Jew can be as evil as Hitler.

I agree about not debating racism as good or evil or whether it has a silver lining. It is the absolute worse kind of tribalism. Let that discussion happen elsewhere. The same for genocide. If Bob or anyone else presents real arguments for it, especially in the context of Objectivism, please stop it immediately. That's why I left SOLOP.

--Brant

Edited September 29, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Judith]

There is a very delicate matter that needs to be mentioned in this affair, that is, if we are seeking truth and not just sides. The matter is racism.

. . .

The story of one side having honor, dignity, productivity, etc., against the the other side that is lazy, dishonest, murderous, because that's the simply way these people are borders on racism, and it is racism all the way down to the fundamentals. The other side's militant view about Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, etc., ditto. Pure unadulterated racism.

Michael, forgive my bluntness, but this is pure, unadulterated bullshit. Whenever anyone dares to speak the truth, some liberal whines that it is racism. That's why nothing gets done. That's why crime rates soar. I'm not talking about inherent characteristics in individuals of any certain racial descent. That's my entire point; free will is inherent in the discussion. But simple observation of facts leads anyone of even moderate moral courage to state obvious conclusions about the ways in which certain cultures behave. Not to state the obvious is insane. No individual is obligated to behave in ways consistent with the culture in which he or she was born.

The simple fact is that each person as an individual does and can choose his values. Just because a person is born a Jew does not mean he is a superior species of human being (as he was taught by religious myths, which say he belongs to a chosen people, i.e., master race), nor does it mean that he is Satan incarnate because people hear that in mosques. The same kind of observation holds for Palestinians. All of them, both Jews and Palestinians, are simply human beings—no more and no less.

Like I said.

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Judith,

You are wrong about the bullshit part. Racism is THE major component of the Israeli/Palestinian mess. This is not liberal nonsense, it is proven historical fact.

This is so obvious to me that I am not even going to debate it. If you don't think modern cities exist in the Muslim world, and some very near Israel, I say each according to his own conscious. I will not betray my own eyes.

I am a bit surprised about your vehemence in denying that racism is involved.

I will say one thing. I think the Nazi leftover antisemitic part oppresses the Palestinian people and does not let them progress so they have a victim to show the world (and there are Palestinians involved in this among other Islamists). So mentioning lack of progress in Gaza, etc., is correct.

It is incorrect to attribute this to an inferior race or culture as opposed to the superior Jew, and that message is the one I constantly see, especially between the lines, but it is blatantly stated often enough to point to. If you like, I can give you a ton of quotes off of a Google search.

Call noticing that bullshit if you like. It exists. It will not go away with rudeness.

Michael

EDIT: I want to amend something here. Jewish people, to the extent they embrace reason and a pro-life attitude, accomplish more than those who do not. This is often but not always. They often do this because a large number of Jews embrace reason and a pro-life attitude, NOT because they are the chosen people and are inherently superior to all others. Like I said, if you want quotes demonstrating that this is one of the strong attitudes out there, there are oodles of them.

[Judith]

I am a bit surprised about your vehemence in denying that racism is involved.

I don't deny that there may be people out there on both sides making racist comments. I do deny that my own analysis of the matter has even a trace of racism in it. I also notice today that people in the Islamic world are extremely quick to cry, "Racism! Racism!" the moment anyone disagrees with them about anything, which really pisses me off. They understand and exploit liberal white guilt to the fullest extent.

I also don't think that racism is the HEART of the matter. This land (lousy land, for that matter; wasn't it Golda Meir who said, "Moses led the Jews around the Middle East for 40 years, and settled in the one part of it that has no oil?") has been disputed for millenia. The Jews went to war for it in Old Testament times because they believed that their god promised it to Abraham. The Babylonians stole it from the Jews. The Jews took it tack. The Romans stole it from the Jews. Etc., etc., etc. How far back do we go, people? I was astonished when visiting Scotland and Wales at how some people there are still bitter about battles that were fought over 400 years ago! My god, people, let it go! Land changes hands. It's the nature of the world. The land of my own ancestors has had its boundaries changed many times and, at times, has ceased to exist altogether. I personally couldn't care less. I hold no grudge against the descendants of those who killed my ancestors. It wasn't me and it wasn't those descendants.

I see the main problem as the Arab/Moslem religious belief that once land has been in Islamic hands, it must never -- ever, ever, ever -- go back into infidel hands. To a lesser extent, the Jews compounded it by selecting as their country this particular land that was their ancestral homeland: if they had selected Uganda when it was offered to them, it would have probably gone a lot more easily for them. But -- what's done is done. Israel exists, and has existed for a number of years now. Get over it, everyone.

Judith

[Judith]

When thinking about Israel's relationship with her Arab neighbors, I'm often reminded of Golda Meir, who said:

I can forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but I cannot forgive the Arabs for making us kill them.

Golda Meir is quoted as saying, "Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."

Wise lady. The world misses her.

Judith

[Judith]

Don't be too sure about that. The demonizing of a hated enemy is very easy and it is as natural as breathing. Humans have been doing it for thousands of years. Killing someone like one's self is difficult. The solution: regard the proposed victim as Totally Other. The violence follows quickly and with no difficulty.

U.S. Marines who fought the Japanese in the Pacific campaigns of WW2 developed a profound hatred for their enemy. They hardly consider "the Japs" as human beings. There was an informal policy of not taking prisoners. If you are fighting an enemy who thinks nothing of mutilating or cutting up disarmed people, you will have no trouble whatsoever to think that your foe is not human. No trouble at all.

I had relatives who fought in WW2 and they told me very frankly that the -enjoyed- killing the Jap Bastards. They looked forward to it. I had an uncle who was a bomb aimer for the eighth air force. He toggled off 500 and 1000 lb. high explosive bombs from his B-17. He said he was happy to do it and he regarded himself as Hitler's worst nightmare - a Jew with a Norden bomb sight. He figured the fewer Germans that survived the war, the less trouble we would have with them later on.

I'm not sure that that's the same thing as racism, though. It's a necessary part of the combat mindset. Occasionally it slips, and you feel bad for the other guy, especially if he's some poor schmuck who was drafted to fight for an evil regime. But you have to remember that for which you're fighting, and channel all of your energy into that cold, implacable determination to destroy the enemy and take joy in the destruction.

The racism during the Indian treaties and their breach didn't come during times of war; they came when the Americans found it inconvenient to keep their part of the bargain. I think they thought, "Oh, well, they're only Indians", the way one would think, "They're only children, they'll forget that I didn't give them the promised candy", or, "They're only dogs, it's okay if I don't keep my promise to take them for a walk." That's what took so long to sink in for me.

Judith

Edit: re "If you are fighting an enemy who thinks nothing of mutilating or cutting up disarmed people, you will have no trouble whatsoever to think that your foe is not human. No trouble at all. I had relatives who fought in WW2 and they told me very frankly that the -enjoyed- killing the Jap Bastards. They looked forward to it."

There was some famous TV interview between an American soldier in Iraq -- a sniper, perhaps? -- and a female interviewer -- Katie Couric, perhaps? -- in which the interviewer asked the soldier, "What do you feel when you shoot the enemy?" He looked at her, astonished, and then replied, "Recoil." God, that made me howl with laughter.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I don't deny that there may be people out there on both sides making racist comments. I do deny that my own analysis of the matter has even a trace of racism in it.

Judith,

I did not say it did, nor do I think so. But since you did bring it up, I will show you how easily even your own words can be interpreted in a racial light. (This has nothing to do with my previous post. It is merely a response to what you just now wrote.)

--all of the land settled by Jews has prospered. The surrounding land settled by Arabs is a vast wasteland. This fact has caused untold envy among the Arabs.

Racist insinuation: Not only are the Arabs worthless, they are an envious lot compared to the superior Jews.

Let's look at the surrounding land—without denigrating what the Jews have done. Also, before I look, you might be interested in an observation from my ex-father-in-law (a Bedouin Muslim who was first-generation Brazilian).

He said that if two Arabs encounter a boulder in the road, they will climb up on it, defecate and move on, leaving the road blocked. If Jews find the boulder, they will remove it to open the way for others and then make a garden in the desert. That sounds like someone bitter against the backwardness of his own people, not one envious of Jews. (I have encountered this bitterness often among Arabs in Brazil, even among a group of Syrians I once knew.)

Are the following places the vast wasteland of the Arabs you are talking about?

Amman, Jordan

Damascus, Syria

Beirut, Lebanon

Cairo, Egypt

(I did not include a resort city in the Sinai Peninsula because of former Israeli construction.)

I am showing these photos not to imply that all the surrounding area is like that, but to show that it exists. From the tenor of your comment, in your own words, "the surrounding land settled by Arabs is a vast wasteland," one sees only desert and camels in the mind's eye.

The "Palestinians" want to come to Israel to work, but also say they want Israel to vanish from the map. To an Arab, this makes sense. They demanded the return of Gaza. When they did, I was relatively glad; I said, "Fine; let them rot in their own shit, without the Israelis to maintain order in there." And that's exactly what's happening. Note that their promises of peace in return for land have come to naught.

Racist implication: Which of "them" of these Arabs can do no better than "rot in their own shit" in life? All of "them"? Some of "them"? Of course, if there are some white overseers, the niggers won't... Oops. Wrong race and wrong time. I meant, if there are some "Israelis to maintain order," the less-than-human dirty nasty Arabs will not have to "rot in their own shit."

--Someone mentioned "reasonable 'Palestinians' ". Yes, of course there are a number of them. That's the good news.

Racist implication: I used to hear this same statement growing up for another race. It went like this: "Now I'm not saying all niggers are bad..." You get the idea.

--When Israeli soldiers have to enter a "Palestinian" home for any reason, they leave it in pristine condition; not only do they do no damage, they don't even leave dirty footprints or soiled dishes.

Racist implication: Of course. "Palestinians" are a filthy nasty sub-human lot and Jews are clean and polite.

Do you see how this can sound to one who has had his reason mixed with strong feelings? It is not a stretch to do what I just did, either. That message is between the lines of harsh "Israeli/Palestinian" rhetoric (on both sides) and cries out to such feelings. I do not think this was your intention, but this whole subject is charged with racism by nature. Whether you want the message there or not with statements like you made, it will be there for many, many people.

When making generalizations, I am now adopting "racist" as part of the standard. If a Jew makes racist comments about Arabs, I consider him to be a racist. If an Arab makes racist comments about Jews, I consider him to be a racist. Both are immoral. I can see no other way to think about it. I cannot excuse racism.

I also don't think that racism is the HEART of the matter. This land (lousy land, for that matter; wasn't it Golda Meir who said, "Moses led the Jews around the Middle East for 40 years, and settled in the one part of it that has no oil?") has been disputed for millenia.

I fully agree that land is a major issue in long disputes of this nature. It is a stupid issue, but mankind has known to be stupid. This is a component at the heart, but racism is there right alongside it. One issue does not negate the other.

Although racism existed in the region before the Nazi-fed structures were erected, it probably would not have been an issue so ingrained at the heart as it is today if the Nazi efforts had not been carried out. But Arab Nazis did build up a mighty antisemitism propaganda effort that persists to the present and the West stupidly turned a blind eye to it. Once again, the fact I find most exasperating is that instead of hanging Arab WWII war criminals, the West gave them a job!

Michael

[Barbara Branden]

Michael, Judith did not say that all Arabs are worthless. And her words did not have the implications you are ascribing to them. I do not believe for a moment that she is a racist. Nor am I. And it comes perilously close to tactics I know you strongly disapprove of to make so damning an accusation -- you, yourself, call racism "evil" -- without full and detailed proof. Your own view comes close to multiculturalism, the idea that all cultures and all peoples and nations are equal in value. They are not, and it is not racism, to even the most infinitesimal degree, to say that the Israeli culture, like the American, is vastly superior to the Moslem world. As you certainly know, this is not the equivalent of saying that every Muslim is worthless or that all Israelis and Americans are saints. Judith has been speaking of cultures, not individual people or individual cities.

It is a simple fact that there is proportionately more crime among young black Americans than among young white Americans. Is it racist to say so? Must we, as the multiculturists insist, pretend that it is not so? And it is a simple fact that many Palestinians are envious of the way Israelis live and therefore want to destroy that which shames them. Is it racist to say so? Must we, like the multiculturists, pretend that all of us are exactly equal in intelligence, morality, and achievement, and human decency, or else be charged with racism?

Barbara

[BaalChatzaf]

Michael, Judith did not say that all Arabs are worthless. And her words did not have the implications you are ascribing to them. I do not believe for a moment that she is a racist. Nor am I. And it comes perilously close to tactics I know you strongly disapprove of to make so damning an accusation -- you, yourself, call racism "evil" -- without full and detailed proof. Your own view comes close to multiculturalism, the idea that all cultures and all peoples and nations are equal in value. They are not, and it is not racism, to even the most infinitesimal degree, to say that the Israeli culture, like the American, is vastly superior to the Moslem world. As you certainly know, this is not the equivalent of saying that every Muslim is worthless or that all Israelis and Americans are saints. Judith has been speaking of cultures, not individual people or individual cities.

Good observation. It is also interesting to note that Israeli citizens who happen to be Muslim or Druse or Ba-Hai or Christian enjoy all legal rights under the laws of Midinath Yisroel (State of Israel). One should also note that the State of Israel is a -Secular State-. While the nation was founded to protect Jews from anti-semitic violence in the region and to provide a safe haven for Jews who were the victims of extreme anti-semitic violence elsewhere, the State itself was constructed as a secular entity.

In Israel, the majority of its Jewish citizens are not very observant of the religion (just go to the beaches there on Shabbat and see all the semi-naked folk swimming and sun-bathing, rather than praying). While the "separation between Church and State" is not as definitive as a Jeffersonian might like, the State of Israel is NOT a theocracy, it is NOT a rabbinocracy. The Ultra Orthodox Party has only a minority status in the Knesset.

Muslims, Christians, Ba-Hai and other non-Jewish groups have been living in Israel peacefully since the State was founded and have enjoyed full legal rights. The only thing not permitted is open and overt attempts to convert Jews (libertarians will no doubt find this offensive). Outsiders who do this will be asked to stop. If they persist they will be -told- to stop. Any long term residence credentials will be revoked if conversion efforts continue. It is also true that the Right to Return is extended only to Jews. That is about the only area where Jews are given a legal preference. Jews may come to Israel to live, as a right, unless they are wanted criminals elsewhere. The gangster, Meyer Lansky, was turned down flat by the Israeli government when he applied for Right to Return privileges.

The only folks who take The Chosen People nonsense seriously are Orthodox Jews and the Ultra-Right wing extremists (for example the late Meir Cahane or the wing-nut extremist Jew who assassinated Yitzchak Rabin). The vast majority of Israelis have no truck with this notion that Jews are different from "the Goyim" at the molecular level. This being said, there is no doubt of the cultural differences (as you ably point out) between Israelis in particular and Jews in general from the Shariah Islamofascists.

In point of fact there is no inherent difference between the Chosen People Meme and the Master Race Meme taken literally to its logical extreme. It is potentially (and sometimes actually) dangerous tommyrot. One might argue that the Jewish people have had a singular and unique historical experience that makes them different from other groups. But this is -true- of every distinct cultural group. We are, to an extent, our history.

MSK, if you are reading this reply to Barbara's posting, please do read it carefully.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael, Judith did not say that all Arabs are worthless. And her words did not have the implications you are ascribing to them. I do not believe for a moment that she is a racist. Nor am I.

Barbara,

I am surprised you got the contrary meaning from my post. I will state the pertinent parts and let them stand (my emphasis).

I don't deny that there may be people out there on both sides making racist comments. I do deny that my own analysis of the matter has even a trace of racism in it.

Judith,

I did not say it did, nor do I think so.

. . .

Do you see how this can sound to one who has had his reason mixed with strong feelings? It is not a stretch to do what I just did, either. That message is between the lines of harsh "Israeli/Palestinian" rhetoric (on both sides) and cries out to such feelings. I do not think this was your intention, but this whole subject is charged with racism by nature. Whether you want the message there or not with statements like you made, it will be there for many, many people.

How you arrived at me calling Judith or you a racist from that, I do not know.

You claim that racist implications are not there. I claim that they are there for many people, depending on who is reading it. It is inherent when using inflammatory rhetoric on this issue whether one intends it or not. I tried to give a glimpse of how this would be read by a person emotionally committed to the other side. I do not think it is wise to ignore that fact since so many people are so emotionally committed at the present. It's a minefield. At least, it is not wise to ignore it if persuasion is the goal. If the intent is merely to bash or pick a fight, I see no problem with ignoring it.

Incidentally, I am not defending multiculturalism or any other ism except individualism. I am strongly against racism wherever it is found.

EDIT: As regards one culture being superior to another, I learned that this evaluation was supposed to be based on reason, not on some kind of undefined "culture" value. I am feeling somewhat pressured to claim that the Jewish culture is superior to Islamic culture. I will not do that without the disclaimer "to the extent reason is used" (which then serves the contrary where appropriate). Thus I am comfortable stating: "To the extent reason is used, Jewish culture is superior to Islamic culture." I can't go any further than that for any culture. Not even for American culture.

Michael