Ayn Rand and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

[RTB]

I can't believe I almost read this thread.

[galtgulch]

You folks are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

Our society is on the path towards greater government control of our lives and the economy and you are quibbling about non essentials.

Here and now, we have an opportunity to stem the flow, by showing our support for a man whose positions are closer to our ideal than we are likely to see again.

We might be devoting more of our efforts, perhaps by letters to the editor of Iowa and New Hampshire newspapers, to reach out to those who will be in the causus or the early primary.

I just spoke with a neighbor while on my walk about Ron Paul.

We should be thinking of ways to help the cause because Ron Paul's cause of individual freedom and limited Constitutional government is our cause as well!

galt

[BaalChatzaf]

I just spoke with a neighbor while on my walk about Ron Paul.

We should be thinking of ways to help the cause because Ron Paul's cause of individual freedom and limited Constitutional government is our cause as well!

galt

If perchance R.P. is elected how will he get along with Congress? He may be the first president to veto every bill that reaches his desk. But vetoes can be overridden.

If he is elected, he will be a one term president and he will make very little difference in the way government is done in this country. Here is a sad fact you must deal with --- the citizens LOVE their programs. They LOVE their handouts.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Wolf DeVoon]

You folks are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

Quite right.

W.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/busines...9-1b30dean.html

Nationwide, shoppers are financing their Christmas purchases by taking on greater debt. Even before the Christmas season, Americans' credit card debt had risen 7 percent over the past year to top $926 billion by October, according to the latest data from the Federal Reserve. The problem is that we are increasingly having problems paying off our bills. A study by the Associated Press last week found that delinquencies and defaults on credit card bills have skyrocketed over the past year. Between October 2006 and October 2007, delinquent accounts at 17 major credit card trusts, representing most of the nation's top credit card issuers, jumped 26 percent to $17.3 billion. At the same time, defaults accounts that are more than 90 days past due rose 18 percent to $961 million. Because those 17 trusts represent only 45 percent of all outstanding credit card debt, the total number of delinquencies and defaults could conceivably be more than twice as high. And that was before shoppers started filling their bags with Christmas gifts. In San Diego County, the rise in credit card debt has combined with ballooning mortgage payments to push a growing number of borrowers into bankruptcy. During the first 11 months of the year, 6,972 San Diegans filed for bankruptcy, compared with 3,507 in the same period a year before. Naturally, some of those bankruptcies have more to do with San Diego's shaky housing market than with mounting credit card bills. But these days, a borrower who is defaulting on a home loan is probably defaulting on a credit card or auto loan as well. "Americans have simply borrowed more money then they can possibly repay," said Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital in Newport Beach.

HAWAII

"We're at that point where we're going to see bankruptcies, foreclosures and business failures," said Bank of Hawaii economist Paul Brewbaker. "As the growth settles over the next several years, we'll see these measures of economic stress continue to inch upward." Honolulu bankruptcy attorney Bradley Tamm, who has seen calls to his office double in recent months compared with last year, expects bankruptcy cases to climb to the historical norm of about 3,000 cases per year by the end of 2008 and increase even more in 2009, as the mortgage crisis hits Hawaii. Many of the weaker players in the market such as small retailers, mom-and-pop restaurants and underfinanced developers will likely close in the next few years, therefore driving up the number of bankruptcies, he said. "These are the harbingers of bad times," Tamm said. "It's not light at the end of the tunnel; it's the headlights of a freight train coming. We're going to get hit."

NEW JERSEY

Harvey Electronics, which operates stores in the New York metropolitan area under such brand names as Bang & Olufsen, was driven to file for Chapter 11 after the "distraction and expense related to unsuccessful merger negotiations with Myer-Emco Inc. cost over $1.2 million." The merger talks broke off after financing became more difficult to obtain amid tightening credit markets.

OKLAHOMA

AMS Health Sciences, Inc. (OTCBB: AMSI) today announced it has sought the protection of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Oklahoma by filing a Chapter 11 petition for reorganization due to the verdict and subsequent judgment rendered against the Company in its November 2007 jury trial relating to the Company's 2005 acquisition of Heartland Cup, Inc.

MARYLAND

This week, Rockville furniture retailer Scan International Inc., which operates five stores in Maryland and two in Virginia, filed for bankruptcy protection in a Baltimore court. The company said revenue had dropped 20 percent during the past year and it owed money to more than 200 creditors, which include international furniture dealers and customers. Liquidation sales and rock bottom prices at retailers such as Ikea have made it tougher for higher-end stores to compete. Even those that have dropped their prices by importing less-expensive furniture have lost some profit margin, analysts said. Retailers including Wal-Mart and Federated Department Stores have reported weak sales for furnishings this year. And Texas-based Bombay Co., known for its mall locations, filed for bankruptcy, liquidated its stores and last week sold its brand name at a New York auction.

NEW YORK

ACA Capital Holdings Inc., the bond insurer that lost its investment-grade credit rating last week, agreed to give control to regulators to avert bankruptcy.

Investors trying to do a workout with Ritchie Capital Management’s multi-strategy fund filed for the fund to be put into bankruptcy. Ritchie has two other funds that the firm placed under bankruptcy protection in New York, which were tied to investments in life insurance settlements issued by Coventry First.

A slowdown in commercial construction jobs has led an Albany, N.Y., contractor to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Kneeland Construction Co., Inc. filed a petition Dec. 21 in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Albany listing $685,987 in debts and $303,603 in assets.

WASHINGTON, D.C.

Low-cost business class airline Maxjet has ceased operating and filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection from creditors after cancelling all flights. "I sincerely apologise to our shareholders, employees, customers and suppliers. Our efforts to raise additional capital have been unsuccessful. Our management team and directors vigorously explored alternative courses but sadly determined that a bankruptcy filing would best protect our customers and creditors." The company's collapse will leave the board out of pocket to the tune of an estimated $30m. Hedge fund investors including Cheyne Special Situations and Citadel also lose out.

FLORIDA

All three of the Aqua Zoo stores in Jacksonville have shut down and are out of business because of bankruptcy, according to signs posted on the business' doors. Friday morning, several customers were stopping by the businesses to find out if the stores were closed for good. Looking through a storefront window, chirping birds along with ferrets, fish and other reptiles could be seen. However, the sign on the door lets customers know what's going on.

St. Petersburg businessman Frank Maggio talked about remaking the city's skyline with his signature condo towers. Today, discussion centers on bankruptcy. Maggio's First Dartmouth Homes, a custom building company he operated at 724 2nd Ave. S, filed Friday for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in Tampa. Maggio is also known for founding erinMedia, a television ratings company that aimed to challenge the dominance of Nielsen Media Research. He announced he was folding erinMedia earlier this year. As for the condo towers, they never got off the ground, either.

After closing its doors in April and failing to sell its remaining inventory, Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla.-based Panitz Signature Homes has filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection in the Jacksonville division of the Bankruptcy Court for the Middle District of Florida. Citing the current downturn in the housing market, the luxury builder is calling it quits after operating in Northeast Florida for 27 years. At a May 19 auction, the builder was unable to sell any of its 11 homes, 25 home sites, or 32 townhome sites.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Wolf DeVoon

[galtgulch]

Bob,

I can't believe that you completely blanked out Rand's message. She was simply saying that man would find a way to survive (through reason) and if one source did not provide the energy he needed, he would find another source.

She did not say "relight a star" or the sun, or even create a new star. She did not discuss the nature of atoms with that excerpt or any other such nonsense you have attributed to her. For a real easy example of what could be feasible by the time the sun extinguished (a few billion years down the road), man could travel and relocate to other galaxies, but Rand wasn't even on this wavelength. She simply was not presenting any scientific speculation whatsoever. She was talking about confidence in man's ability to adapt and survive.

This was misreading Rand on purpose to find a defect where there was none. I put this in the same league with Bob Wallace once criticizing Atlas Shrugged for including a blunderbuss, see here. He even insisted on it, as you are now doing.

It just didn't happen. Rand neither postulated bad physics nor did she ever mention blunderbusses.

Michael

Michael, I do appreciate your patience and fortitude in dealing with this kind of assault on Ayn Rand. Especially when the perpetrator distorts Rand's ideas and appears to have an agenda and an attitude.

I have had an interest in astronomy since I read Sir James Jeans as a boy, not to mention one of the many biographies of Galileo. Your comment that "man could travel and relocate to other galaxies" caught my attention. Certainly you realize that Mankind does not have to leave our own Milky Way galaxy to find another habitable planet around a younger star.

There are over one hundred billion stars in our own galaxy and the likelihood is that there are many which would have planets suitable for life. Whether there already are living organisms on many of those planets, not to mention civilizations even more advanced than our own, remains to be seen.

Hopefully there will be enough time to become civilized ourselves in the several billion more years before our sun grows cold.

I do believe that Ron Paul's campaign may serve at least to enlighten our fellow Americans about the reality of just how far from the society envisioned by the Founders we have drifted and the way forward.

galt

[Michelle]

Ignore the science in ATLAS SHRUGGED. You'll fry your brain trying to think about how Galt got his physics-defying motor to work. The point isn't the motor. The point is the force behind the motor. It's meant to be an idealistic demonstration of the role of reason in a modern society by depicting what happens when rational people are removed from it.

[Xray]

Ignore the science in ATLAS SHRUGGED. You'll fry your brain trying to think about how Galt got his physics-defying motor to work. The point isn't the motor. The point is the force behind the motor. It's meant to be an idealistic demonstration of the role of reason in a modern society by depicting what happens when rational people are removed from it.

But those "rational" people are mere fictional characters, creations of an author's imagination, the unrealism in them so evident that it borders on the absurd.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

Here is a quote that I owe to Michael. It is from -Atlas Shrugged- from the bottom of p 164 to the top of p 165.

Context: Hank and Dagny are at the construction site for the Taggart Transcontinental RR where Reardon Metal is being used to lay down track and build a new bridge on their Colorado Division (this is before Dagny had to separate this division from the rest of TTRR -- pre John Galt Line). They are noting how the economy of the country is running down, production falling and revenues falling. I will add in a little before to establish context.

Dagny:I think of the contrast all over rest of the Taggart System. There is less to carry, less tonnage produced each year. It's as if ... Hank, what's wrong with the country?

Hank: I don't know.

Dagny: I keep thinking about what they told us in school about the sun losing energy, growing colder each year. I remember wondering then what it would be like in the last days of the world. It would be ... like this. Growing colder and things stopping.

Hank: I never believed that story (sic!). By the time the sun was exhausted men would find a substitute.

Dagny: You did? I thought that too.

........

What is wrong here?

0. "That story" is a well established scientific theory. Evidence supporting it has accumulated over several centuries. Laboratory evidence made with expensive instruments.

1. A denial of the first law of thermodynamics, to wit, energy cannot be created out of nothing.

2. A denial of the second law of thermodynamics, to wit, in any closed system (like the universe) entropy increased until thermal equilibrium throughout is reached.

The only substitute sun is another star. The closest such is proximi centauri about four light years away and there is no evidence that it has any planets that humans can live on. One does not manufacture new suns without material and energy sources. From where? Blank out (to use a Phrase).

Michael, do you see what I am talking about. This shows a clear indication that the Founding Mother was kinda light on her grasp of physics. There are two things that everyone should know whether or not they are going to specialize in science.

1. Things are made of atoms

2. The basic laws of thermodynamics stated non-technically for the non-specialist. Mathematics is not required to grasp them.

I believe Einstein's General Theory of Relativity will be falsified empirically long before the basic conservation laws (including those of thermodynamics) are undone. If we lose the conservation laws, I am at my wits end to see how would can advance physics. Thermodynamics is about as close to True as one gets in physics.

She makes a similar error when she refers to life as a self generating process. Life is NOT self generating. Any living organism requires an external energy source, either radiant energy or the chemical energy from ingested material. We humans must keep sufficiently warm or we freeze to death and we must ingest carbohydrates to fuel our metabolic process, else we starve and die. What living system ARE, are self regulating. Living system are characterized by two things: they can replicate parts of themselves or copies of themselves; and they are regulated by negative feedback control loops which function as long as they have energy to operate. Think of a steam engine with a centrifugal speed governor. As long as the boiler is hot and making steam the engine with run at a speed which varies gently between a lower limit and an upper limit. Google <steam governor> for details.

It is things like this that cause me to gnash my teeth, pull out my hair and rend (or rand) my garments. It is not like Ayn Rand was some dull wit. She was a sharp lady and the founder of a philosophical/political movement. If she was going to make remarks about science and math I would expect her to avoid howling screaming blunders like this.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Very interesting post, Ba'al!

So would, according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, finally the point be reached where the whole universe will be (to use Rearden's words) "exhausted"?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

But those "rational" people are mere fictional characters, creations of an author's imagnation, the unrealism in them so evident that it borders on the absurd.

Xray,

That's an opinion, I suppose.

I find it interesting how all your recent posts are aimed at gratuitously bashing Rand.

You are lowering the level of discussion just to goad people.

Stop it.

Michael

[anonrobt]

The entropy deal is mis-understood... the second law in no ways referred the 'closed system' as the universe itself - indeed, it was clear it referred only to a closed system 'within' the universe...

[BaalChatzaf]

The entropy deal is mis-understood... the second law in no ways referred the 'closed system' as the universe itself - indeed, it was clear it referred only to a closed system 'within' the universe...

Since there is nothing outside the universe the universe is a closed system. That means the total entropy of the universe is increasing.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michelle]

Ignore the science in ATLAS SHRUGGED. You'll fry your brain trying to think about how Galt got his physics-defying motor to work. The point isn't the motor. The point is the force behind the motor. It's meant to be an idealistic demonstration of the role of reason in a modern society by depicting what happens when rational people are removed from it.

But those "rational" people are mere fictional characters, creations of an author's imagination, the unrealism in them so evident that it borders on the absurd.

Thus why I used the word "idealistic."

Ayn Rand's characters, with a few exceptions (Eddie Willers, that girl Jim Taggart marries, etc.), reflect the opposed moral poles of complete depravity and heroic individualism in order to bring Rand's ideas to the forefront. Although, admittedly, AS borders on being propaganda at times, the essence of this approach is still rational and legitimate. Do the majority of modern socialists and capitalists act like the socialists and capitalists in Rand's novel? Probably not. But, as Rand was fond of saying, she is a romantic writer, not a naturalistic one, which means that she portrays things to the degree that they are metaphysically significant, rather than because they accidentally happen to exist in our world.

Do I think she goes overboard on this approach? Yes. The 60 page radio broadcast, the denizens of Galt's Gulch acting like a bunch of cloned mini-Galts, the fact that characters can't have sex without prefacing it with page long speeches-- all these elements hurt the novel.

But to criticize it for its 'unrealism' is to misunderstand the manner in which Ayn Rand wrote.

The novel is deliberately timeless to reflect the fact that it is not a naturalistic description of what a capitalist strike would have done to America in the 1950s, but an idealized socio-political fable about what happens when rationality and independence are punished in a society.

Rand was a poor science-fiction writer and didn't even seem to understand the problem of a significant lack of brevity in her writing, but she was also a brilliant dramatist and satirist (this is more evident in THE FOUNTAINHEAD, but you still see it in ATLAS SHRUGGED) who had a flair for taking abstract philosophical issues and making them palatable for intelligent laymen. If her characters are overly idealized, they help provide strong role models for young men and women who love their lives and want to live a rational and purposeful existence. If she does not communicate her ideas as succinctly and effectively as she possibly could, she still has helped millions of readers understand and define to themselves the precise nature of the world around them to an unprecedented degree. ATLAS SHRUGGED, in particular, has proven to be one of the most valuable contributions to literature in the twentieth-century, and the ripples generated by its publication are still being felt today. Perhaps we have not felt the strongest ripples yet.

If I don't consider ATLAS SHRUGGED to be the end-all, be-all of literature, I still feel awe at Rand's achievement, and reading it still gives me goosebumps when I think about how right she was in so many ways.

[Xray]

If her characters are overly idealized, they help provide strong role models for young men and women who love their lives and want to live a rational and purposeful existence.

The scenes of sexual violence are numerous in AS.

Just some examples -

Excerpts from Rearden's sexual encounters with Dagny Taggert.

1st sexual encounter: (p. 251 hb)

"It was like an act of hatred, like a cutting blow of a lash encircling her body."

(p. 252) "He took her wrist and threw her inside the room, making the gesture tell that he needed no sign of consent or resistance."

Afterward: "She saw a bruise above her elbow, with dark beads which had been blood."

The bruises stem from "hours of a violence which they could not name now"

From a following encounter:

(p. 268) He seized her arm, threw her down on her knees, twisting her body against his legs, and bent down to kiss her mouth she laughed soundlessly, her laughter mocking, but her eyes halfs closed, veiled with pleasure.

p 269: "he twisted her arm, holding her helples, her breasts pressed against him; she felt the pain ripping through her shoulders"

Where is the "strong role model" aspect here? Why so much violence? Why does Rearden feel the sexual act with the woman he loves resembles "an act of hatred"?

Edited May 29, 2009 by Xray

[BaalChatzaf]

Where is the "strong role model" aspect here? Why so much violence? Why does Rearden feel the sexual act with the woman he loves resembles "an act of hatred"?

Rearden had issues. His lust for Dagny, perhaps filled him with self-loathing. He had to work that out and it took him some time. Look at it from his point of view. His lust (a normal urge) lead him to marry Lillian, the Bride From Hell. Why should he trust his urges after that. So he gave into his lust, which he regarded as a weakness and a wrong thing. Consider what he said to Dagny right after they had intercourse at Wyatt's house. It was scathing self denounciation. Of course, Dagny laughed at him for such foolishness and he got angry and did it again. At that time Rearden was a psychosexual trainwreck and he had to straighten himself out.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michelle]

If her characters are overly idealized, they help provide strong role models for young men and women who love their lives and want to live a rational and purposeful existence.

The scenes of sexual violence are numerous in AS.

Just some examples -

Excerpts from Rearden's sexual encounters with Dagny Taggert.

1st sexual encounter: (p. 251 hb)

"It was like an act of hatred, like a cutting blow of a lash encircling her body."

(p. 252) "He took her wrist and threw her inside the room, making the gesture tell that he needed no sign of consent or resistance."

Afterward: "She saw a bruise above her elbow, with dark beads which had been blood."

The bruises stem from "hours of a violence which they could not name now"

From a following encounter:

(p. 268) He seized her arm, threw her down on her knees, twisting her body against his legs, and bent down to kiss her mouth she laughed soundlessly, her laughter mocking, but her eyes halfs closed, veiled with pleasure.

p 269: "he twisted her arm, holding her helples, her breasts pressed against him; she felt the pain ripping through her shoulders"

Where is the "strong role model" aspect here? Why so much violence? Why does Rearden feel the sexual act with the woman he loves resembles "an act of hatred"?

I said 'role models,' not 'people you ought to emulate in every exact way.' It means people who's general principles you find admirable and worthy. That doesn't mean because a role model of yours like Vanilla ice cream you should too.

Of course, I've never needed a role model, but some people do.

With that said, all of the sexual activity in ATLAS SHRUGGED is consensual and enjoyable to both sex partners. Is there some moral argument against rough sex that I'm not aware of? The 'hours of violence' and 'acts of hatred' are meant to convey the intense, brutal passion of the acts on display. The book, and not just in the sex scenes, is filled with images of bondage and domination, which is likely due to Rand's sexual preferences. Rand's 'ideal man' stuff is mixed in with what appear to be fantasies about being dominated by powerful, almost bestial men.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Michelle R

[Xray]

I said 'role models,' not 'people you ought to emulate in every exact way.' It means people who's general principles you find admirable and worthy. That doesn't mean because a role model of yours like Vanilla ice cream you should too.

If an author creates fictional heroic characters, explicitly stating that she created them "as man an should be", i. e. as the "ideal man /ideal woman", and if the sexuality of those characters is a major theme in her books (which it is), then logic dictates that the sexuality of those heroic characters is part of the package "as man should be" too. Agree?

If disagree, please quote area of disagreement and say why.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Xray

[Michelle]

I said 'role models,' not 'people you ought to emulate in every exact way.' It means people who's general principles you find admirable and worthy. That doesn't mean because a role model of yours like Vanilla ice cream you should too.

If an author creates fictional heroic characters, explicitly stating that she created them "as man an should be", i. e. as the "ideal man /ideal woman", and if the sexuality of those characters is a major theme in her books (which it is), then logic dictates that the sexuality of those heroic characters is part of the package "as man should be" too. Agree?

If disagree, please quote area of disagreement and say why.

By that logic, since all of the ideal characters were industrialist types, everybody should seek to become an industrialist. It's a ridiculous, concrete bound manner of thinking you're displaying.

She did portray her views on the morality of sexuality in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but none of it had to do with the type of sex involved. She said only that your choice of lover should be a reflection of your highest values and that you shouldn't regard such a sexual relationship as impure or vulgar. Rand portrayed the sex lives of her characters as violent and passionate because that was Ayn Rand's preferred literary treatment of sexuality. It stands to reason that the manner of sexuality - rough, passionate sex, as her heroes engaged in; or gentle, loving sex as many other people would prefer - has no relation to any moral ideal. It was simply the way her characters had sex.

[Xray]

If an author creates fictional heroic characters, explicitly stating that she created them "as man an should be", i. e. as the "ideal man /ideal woman", and if the sexuality of those characters is a major theme in her books (which it is), then logic dictates that the sexuality of those heroic characters is part of the package "as man should be" too. Agree?

If disagree, please quote area of disagreement and say why.

By that logic, since all of the ideal characters were industrialist types, everybody should seek to become an industrialist. It's a ridiculous, concrete bound manner of thinking you're displaying.

The profession of the characters is irrelevant here. Relevant is that Rand created them "as man should be". Now when an author presents her heroes as role models using the category "man" (which comprises every individual member belonging to the category) the logical inference is that everyone should aspire to be like them.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Xray

[Michelle]

If an author creates fictional heroic characters, explicitly stating that she created them "as man an should be", i. e. as the "ideal man /ideal woman", and if the sexuality of those characters is a major theme in her books (which it is), then logic dictates that the sexuality of those heroic characters is part of the package "as man should be" too. Agree?

If disagree, please quote area of disagreement and say why.

By that logic, since all of the ideal characters were industrialist types, everybody should seek to become an industrialist. It's a ridiculous, concrete bound manner of thinking you're displaying.

The profession of the characters is irrelevant here. Relevant is that Rand created them "as man should be". Now when an author presents her heroes as role models using the category "man" (which comprises every individual member belonging to the category) the logical inference is that everyone should aspire to be like them.

You're evading the point. The only thing meant by them being ideal characters is that the reader should aspire to be like them on the level of principle. Take Jesus Christ, the ideal man for the Christians. To become like Christ does not mean to become a carpenter and to get nailed to a piece of wood. It means to live the selfless, god-oriented kind of existence Jesus lived.

In the same way, if a reader is following the example of the heroes of ATLAS SHRUGGED, they're going to do it on the level of principle. So: love your work and aspire to greatness no matter what your preferred field is. In the case of sexuality, don't sleep around with random jocks, but choose a man who is a reflection of your highest values, and take no shame in lusting after him, because that lust is a reflection of the best within you.

This is the level of principle.

You're stuck on the concretes. Instead of seeing the underlying principles behind the sex acts, which is where the moral ideal resides, you're obsessing over the manner of sexual expression employed by Rand's characters.

[Xray]

She did portray her views on the morality of sexuality in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but none of it had to do with the type of sex involved. She said only that your choice of lover should be a reflection of your highest values and that you shouldn't regard such a sexual relationship as impure or vulgar.

Do you believe Ayn Rand was of the opinion that values are subjective?

[Michelle]

She did portray her views on the morality of sexuality in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but none of it had to do with the type of sex involved. She said only that your choice of lover should be a reflection of your highest values and that you shouldn't regard such a sexual relationship as impure or vulgar.

Do you believe Ayn Rand was of the opinion that values are subjective?

What are you driving at?

[Xray]

The only thing meant by them being ideal characters is that the reader should aspire to be like them on the level of principle. Take Jesus Christ, the ideal man for the Christians. To become like Christ does not mean to become a carpenter and to get nailed to a piece of wood. It means to live the selfless, god-oriented kind of existence Jesus lived.

In the same way, if a reader is following the example of the heroes of ATLAS SHRUGGED, they're going to do it on the level of principle. So: love your work and aspire to greatness no matter what your preferred field is. In the case of sexuality, don't sleep around with random jocks, but choose a man who is a reflection of your highest values, and take no shame in lusting after him, because that lust is a reflection of the best within you.

This is the level of principle.

But what if a "random jock" reflects one's highest value, given the variety of individual choices? Who is to give a value judgment on any preferences in that field?

You yourself just wrote:

She did portray her views on the morality of sexuality in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but none of it had to do with the type of sex involved. She said only that your choice of lover should be a reflection of your highest values and that you shouldn't regard such a sexual relationship as impure or vulgar.

But people's indivdual "highest values" differ, don't they?

Instead of seeing the underlying principles behind the sex acts, which is where the moral ideal resides, you're obsessing over the manner of sexual expression employed by Rand's characters.

Could you give an example of the "underlying principles behind the sex acts, where the moral resides". TIA.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

She did portray her views on the morality of sexuality in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but none of it had to do with the type of sex involved. She said only that your choice of lover should be a reflection of your highest values and that you shouldn't regard such a sexual relationship as impure or vulgar.

Do you believe Ayn Rand was of the opinion that values are subjective?

What are you driving at?

Since I'm not sure of your interpretation of Rand's stance on this, I asked the question to get a clear answer. TIA for your reply.

[Michelle]

Could you give an example of the "underlying principles behind the sex acts where the moral resides". TIA.

Dagny and Hank Rearden were attracted to the best within one another - the other's independence, integrity, self-esteem, ambition, etc. etc. This was the root of their sexual attraction for one another. Thus, when they consummated their feelings, the resulting sex was an expression of their highest values as embodied in another.

I'm not getting into the objectivity/subjectivity thing again, though. If we didn't agree before, what makes you think we'll agree now?

Edited May 30, 2009 by Michelle R

[Michelle]

She did portray her views on the morality of sexuality in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but none of it had to do with the type of sex involved. She said only that your choice of lover should be a reflection of your highest values and that you shouldn't regard such a sexual relationship as impure or vulgar.

Do you believe Ayn Rand was of the opinion that values are subjective?

What are you driving at?

Since I'm not sure of your interpretation of Rand's stance on this, I asked the question to get a clear answer. TIA for your reply.

Like I said, I'm not going to get dragged into the objective/subjective debate again. But to be clear: values are subjective. The worth of these values is linked to how they relate to Rand's objective morality, however. Valuing independence, self-esteem, yadda yadda is rational, because it lines up with the objective morality which ensures man's survival and flourishing in relation to reality.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Michelle R