Karate, anyone?

[mvir9]

I am curious to know if there is anyone else here that participates in the martial arts?

I've been in karate for a very long time (almost 27 years) -- and I still adore it! Not only does it keep me fit (which is very helpful at 33 years of age and after giving birth twice), but it is great to know that I am capable of defending myself should the need ever arise.

Aside from all of the obvious benefits, I adore the fact that karate is such an individualistic activity. Whether sparring, practicing ippon kumite, or simply doing kata -- my success depends solely upon me.

[Judith]

I've done some brief training seminars, but nothing regular. I'm more interested in the self-defense aspects of it than the sport aspects of it. I'm interested in trying krav maga if I can find someone qualified to teach it.

Judith

[mvir9]

I've done some brief training seminars, but nothing regular. I'm more interested in the self-defense aspects of it than the sport aspects of it. I'm interested in trying krav maga if I can find someone qualified to teach it.

Judith

Krav Maga is one of the neatest Israeli creations.

[Chris Grieb]

Karv Maga:

Where can we get some good information?

[mvir9]

Karv Maga:

Where can we get some good information?

The info online is sadly lacking. I will pull together some of my martial arts information later today so that I can give you more sufficient references.

[Judith]

I found this site:

http://www.kravmaga.com/krav01.html

I ordered the book they offer. It hasn't come yet. There aren't any official training centers in my town, although some of the karate institutes claim to teach krav maga. I have to ask around a bit more.

Judith

[mvir9]

I've spent time training with Krav Maga practioners, and I've cross-trained in several other styles. Based on my knowledge, I can say the following:

In a nutshell, Krav Maga is the self-defense training system of the Israeli paramilitary. The system was a "closed" system until the 1980's. In other words, like the samurai, the Israeli's protected their training system from foreigners. In the '80s, however, they began to teach their system to outsiders.

Krav Maga is a physically demanding self-defense system that requires more work with a partner than most martial arts (an exception would be Ju-jitsu). Although most of its techniques are nearly identical to those of Karate-do and Ju-jitsu, Krav Maga focuses solely upon physical self-defense.

If you are interested in further information, there is an informational video at Black Belt Magazine.

Or, if you wish to make a financial investment into your research, a book was published by Ulysses Press (May, 2007) that has several introductory chapters: Complete Krav Maga: The Ultimate Guide to Over 200 Self-Defense and Combative Techniques by Darren Levine and John Whitman.

[RagJohn]

I have taught TaeKwanDo for 38 years now. The way I learned it, in Korea (while in the Army there, 1972) would get you sued in the USA today. My instructor used to say things like:"Pain is a good teacher", and "blood don't come out, you OK". :-) he was right, too, about all the injuries sustained,that I saw in my year of training.

[Rich Engle]

Since 1969. I ended up in JKD, mostly, along with the Filipino arts. Like most Americans, I started off in TKD, and when I was quite young I was part of a touring demonstration team based out of a NASA facility. But I rarely teach or practice any more. Just enough to keep sharp. Mostly, I just keep a big stick next to my door. I developed equal proficiencies in MA and music, but went the music way for the most part--decided I needed my hands more than for, you know. . .stuff.

I love the MA, and follow it to this day. Once in awhile I will train with someone. Ground grappling is where I left off. Mainly, I practice things around Wing Chun ideas--joint lock flow, trapping, etc.

Just tired of getting in fights and training accidents. Huge Bruce Lee fan. I really enjoyed learning how to box. Oh, and a little fencing. The stick fighting is something I really dig. That and the blade, but knife fighting is very nasty business and if you mess with it too long it can make you feel kind of creepy. I have one guy that has been doing it about as long as I have--he is Okinawan based and a weapons expert. About every year or so we go in the back yard and get into it--been doing that to each other since we were like 14. But again, we're both getting too old for it. The last one left us both pretty tore up.

In what I would call the end of my real active years (say 5 or so back) I remained very involved in working with rape crisis centers, teaching abused women, anti-rape training/avoidance, that kind of stuff--mostly to inner city battered women who weren't always coming out of abusive relationships. It was heart wrenching. When I got to that level I started training to be I guess what you would call a close combat instructor, but I pulled back after a very, very bad injury that crushed my thorax and collapsed a lung.

After that it was street experience, and I am happy to say I remain 3 for 3 in repelling strongarm daytime robbery attempts.

Again, though--tired from that, avoidance is best. Now I kind of just ride my bike and stuff.

r

Edited December 19, 2010 by Rich Engle

[sbeaulieu]

I've been taught a few disciplines... Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Karate, and Aikido (my favorite). It's been quite a few years since I've trained, but it's something that has kept me mentally sharp.

~ Shane

[PDS]

I have trained for 2 years in Okinawan Kenpo Karate and before that Krav Maga.

For those interested in self defense only, I recommend Krav--mainly teaches you the best way to kick someone in the balls.

Of course, most people are best off running away, or surrendering, when in danger.

[BaalChatzaf]

For those interested in self defense only, I recommend Krav--mainly teaches you the best way to kick someone in the balls.

Of course, most people are best off running away, or surrendering, when in danger.

Or how picked on Jewish boys can fight off the Gentiles.

I invented my version of Krav when the anti-semites kept beating me up. I finally got smart and got my revenge. The best thing is to go for the eyes.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[RagJohn]

I've never known the "a few tricks" approach to work. During my first sparring match, after 2 months of 6 hour weeks of hard training, a guy with 8 months training scored on me at will, I could block nothing that he threw, and I couldn't score on him at all. 3 months later, same guy couldnt score on me at all, and I hit him at will. that's how much difference 70 or so hours more training can make, for someone who really works at it. He got no better, while I improved tremendously. Still, a 6 ft, 175 lb man, who was helpless in the face of that half-good guy, after 40 or so hours of intense, small class training, shows that it takes a lot more than the "show me a few tricks" sort of effort. It takes dozens of hours to perfect just a front kick, testicle high. Your body needs to be taught a lot better balance than you have ever had, or your kicks will lack power, make YOU fall, etc. you have to learn to curl up your toes, or smash them at impact. You have to learn to fold-down your ankle, so that you maximize your "reach" and minimize the size of your weapon's "head", maximiizing penetration into the enemy's body. All that takes many weeks, and you can't train at that one technique more than a few minutes at a time, and your instructor is not available all day long. If you try to practice without his presence, most likely you will just learn bad habits. So you might as well learn many things per training-session (1-1.5 hours in length) so that you can spread around the fatigue amongst different muscle groups. Eventually, you get fast, strong, flexible, very well balanced. After you have proven that you can handle serious attacks by highly trained men, attacks by the untrained will be quite easy to deal with. Some awkward, vicious moves by the untrained can catch you by surprise, if you are not aware that they may, out of ignorance, attempt things that your training partners KNOW is suicidal. Not having had any practice at handling such buffoonery/ruthlessness, you can lose to such a jerk. So beware, train with many types of people, and NEVER, in a real fight, think that you can slow down(as compared to your top speed in a sparring match) that his buddies won't help him, that he has no weapon, that you can't slip on something underfoot, that he won't THROW something at you, etc. If need be, hurt him REALLY badly first, THEN consider some submission hold, etc. Dont try anything on the untrained that you can't make work on a black belt, either. Get overconfident, and you''ll get hurt.

Edited December 23, 2010 by RagJohn

[Philip Coates]

Lots of excellent points, RJ: Even as a beginner, I feel incredibly awkward and out of balance -- especially with the various kicks -- in a way I never felt when I play sports like basketball, volleyball, and tennis or lift weights. I don't feel really out of balance or so awkward outside of the kicks, as with the upper, lower, and chest blocks or with the various fist strikes (fist and open hand). Or doing the katas, or sparring (at an elementary, easily paced level).

I'm doing it for balance and coordination and fitness; I don't feel a need to be prepared to defend myself or that I'm likely to get in a fight.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Selene]

Lots of excellent points, RJ: Even as a beginner, I feel incredibly awkward and out of balance -- especially with the various kicks -- in a way I never felt when I play sports like basketball, volleyball, and tennis or lift weights. I don't feel really out of balance or so awkward outside of the kicks, as with the upper, lower, and chest blocks or with the various fist strikes (fist and open hand). Or doing the katas, or sparring (at an elementary, easily paced level).

I'm doing it for balance and coordination and fitness; I don't feel a need to be prepared to defend myself or that I'm likely to get in a fight.

Phil:

I would highly recommend Tai Chi for all of the elements that you listed. I trained in Tai Chi for five (5) years and it has served me well, in terms of health, dangerous situations and psychologically.

Adam

[Philip Coates]

Thanks Adam,

I think I'll hang in there with the karate for now. I have no problem feeling a bit out of balance and awkward and doing something very different with my body. I'm a 6'2" 235 lb. man, so being light and nimble and in balance is a bit out of character for me physically- and well worth aiming for.

But I'm surrounded in a class in a relatively small practice room by smaller, lighter people and females and have to try to do the moves holding my position without ramming or toppling into people.

My normal athletic style is more Bull + China Shop + Broken Glass. :-)

[RagJohn]

Yeah, the only real way to learn is in small classes. It takes a great master and green belt and up, to teach/learn 6 at a time. 3-4 people per class is best, and often, only individual instruction is of value. Since the latter costs about $70 an hour, it's not feasible for 99.9% of students, for the 100 or more hours that you need it, and the 200 or so hours needed of small class stuff (at $20 an hour). You can't learn some things while they are being done TO you, you have to watch them being done to others, then practice doing those things, then practice the counters to those things, etc. HIGH kicking practice, and the required stretching, will do more for your balance than anything else, except perhaps ballet dancing. Dunno anything about that, and it it looks like it would probably ruin your ankles. TKD uses a starting and ending position, chumbe chase' that is very helpful to building balance, as well as what is known as "short power", the ability to strike a really effective blow, even tho you only move the striking limb 1-3" or so. I learned while in Korea, as a soldier. I got small class instruction from a gold badge 5th Dan Master of MooDukKwan, who was also a 1st Dan in Judo, and a very, very strong, experienced fighter/teacher. It cost me $10 per month to get about 8 hours per week, 2 hours or so of that being 1 on 1. I was clearing about $250 a month at the time. Moon said that at 5 months, I was "black belt already". I trained for 10 months, and the 6th Dan Judge, in Seoul, said (in Korean, Moon translated)"Oh, he GOOD!". :-) I specialized in face high jumping kicks, and they like that a lot over there.

Edited December 24, 2010 by RagJohn

[Backlighting]

For self-defense I prefer a 40 cal. Glock. It trumps all the martial arts.

[Philip Coates]

> It takes a great master and green belt and up, to teach/learn 6 at a time. 3-4 people per class is best [RJ]

Yes, I can see that: We usually have had between six to nine in classes. The instructor knows his stuff (black belt in Okinawan karate), but there are too many people to get much individual attention.

> I specialized in face high jumping kicks.

Too advanced for me now, as I'm still mastering balance and flexibility for easy kicks. As for the height of the kick, I just did some kicking after reading your post. I can casually kick up to my chin with no discomfort and no stretching standing here, but I sense if I tried to go higher I might pull a thigh muscle or a hamstring. I don't really stretch much so I'm not really flexible, just bend down reaching with opposite hand to the foot before I go out and jog....not the hurdlers stretch like we used to do when I was on h.s. and college track.

All the following kicks I do about shin level, certainly no higher than crotch level: I've worked on [i'm trying to master] the front kick, the side kicks (45 degrees, 90), roundhouse. And just started the back kick. The instructor (or 'sensei') said there is a disadvantage with high kicks (certainly for those at our level). You are out of balance and may miss or come down wrong, a strong opponent has more time to strike or seize your leg. With the low kicks, you have more accuracy and control. And the technique has a much shorter range of motion. And thus happens much faster.

And you should kick out and bring the foot back immediately -- like a snake striking and retracting -- so someone can't grab hold (just as you should with a fist strike of course.)

Does all of that sound like the way you learned it?

It actually has helped me to do some of these in light sparring and also as part of a series of very different moves (for those not familiar, this is what is called a "kata", 20-40 moves in a quick series: fist strikes, foot strikes, blocks,...). Doing katas, I can feel that that succession of sudden thrusting and striking muscles in reasonably rapid sequence have never been used. After doing it for an hour and a half in the afternoon weekly - same amount of time I play volleyball in the mornings with no strain or effort, I'm not sore but sometimes a bit out of breath or slightly dizzy.

(Grasshopper Phil)

Edited December 25, 2010 by Philip Coates

[RagJohn]

once you start (mild and medium contact) sparring a mere 3 minutes can wear you completely out, if your opponent is any good at all. As I neared my black belt test, Moon had me free sparr 6 guys, and by the end, white belts were scoring on me. I was just too tired to block anything. yes, low kicks are much safer, because the only effective block is the very difficult to learn foot-leg block. If he bends over to use his hands, his head is easily struck, by foot or hand. High kicks usually lack much power, but blows to the head don't NEED much to be effective, either. About the only way kicks are caught is AFTER you "pull" them, not hitting the guy. If you hadn't pulled the kick, he'd be busted up and on the floor, catching nothing1 :-) I am working on a martial arts aid that will make everyone about 25% faster at everything they do. No kidding. A similar tool did exactly that for another hobby of mine, at which I had practiced for many years. When I got this aid, I cut 25% off of my times, within 2 weeks.

No, the HG does NOT trump the martial arts, either. It has no hope of doing so, if it's ccw'd and I start at less than 6 ft from you, which is almost always the case, for justified civilian self defense. Make that 10 ft if I have my walking-stick/cane. I also have a throwing knife that always "sticks". It's not a star, it penetrates 8" or so, it's as heavy as a Bowie, and after you throw it, it's still in your hand (sort of).

One time a guy asked Moon what he could do vs a gun. He backed off out of jumpkicking distance,and said:"not possible" (vs a gun aimed at him already, not holstered under a garment). He moved up to pivot-kicking range, and said:"Possible". He then closed up to arm's-reach, glowered at the guy, pointed at ME, and said:"HIM, not possible". :-)He meant that if a real "gun-hand" held the gun,and that gunman also was a karate-adept, any unarmed attack was unlikely to succeed. He'd seen me toss up a soda can, make a concealed belt rig draw and hit the can in midair. I could and can still do this easily, with a 1911 .45. At my best, I could toss up 2 such cans and hit at least one every time, and usually hit both, before they could fall below a 45 degree angle to the earth.

Google for "legendary abs", and work up to level 9. Takes most people 6 months to do this. I've been doing it since 1987, and I've always been able to take a bare knuckle punch to my navel after I got to level 9, that is. Most people's punch to my abs doesn't bother me a bit. A few can make me take a step back and grunt. When I hit them,with a punch that moves only 4" or so, they collapse. :-) Another really great exercise is lunges, with a wt bar across your shoulders. Do this with no wt for a while, bending the rear knee until it "kisses" the ground, keeping the feet wide (across the shoulders wide, not front to back) working on balance. It will make your butt, lower back and hamstrings sore. Have a lunge rack, and go up slowly in wt, 5 lbs at a time,until you can lunge 10x with your own body wt on the bar. This is likely to take you a year. Another good one is to jump rope while in the squatting position. This works the thighs. I can now only do 50 reps, used to do 100, but I'm 58, and 40 lbs overweight. Gotta get on the Atkins diet and fix that problem! Takes about 4 months to lose 40 lbs, without muscle loss, and a lot of working out.

Edited December 25, 2010 by RagJohn