Ignore Islam, 'ex-Muslims' urge

[BaalChatzaf]

To be complete, I think that the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community will bother you if there is no explosion.

I think you are bothered now by the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community and will continue to be bothered by it in all scenarios.

Michael

I think you are unrealistically optimistic. The Muslims have been in the Dark for the last seven hundred years. I expect they will be in the Dark for the next seven hundred years. In short, I do not think the possibility exists. You do, I don't.

I am guided by the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a -If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first-.

Attack first, apologize later.

Ba'al Chatzaf

How do you apply your little Talmud quote when we attacked them first?

--Dustan

When and where?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Aggrad02]

To be complete, I think that the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community will bother you if there is no explosion.

I think you are bothered now by the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community and will continue to be bothered by it in all scenarios.

Michael

I think you are unrealistically optimistic. The Muslims have been in the Dark for the last seven hundred years. I expect they will be in the Dark for the next seven hundred years. In short, I do not think the possibility exists. You do, I don't.

I am guided by the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a -If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first-.

Attack first, apologize later.

Ba'al Chatzaf

How do you apply your little Talmud quote when we attacked them first?

--Dustan

When and where?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Example 1:

One example would be Iran. After Britain left the Middle East after WWII, they carved up the Middle-East into countries of their choosing (basically gerrymandering). In Iran they put into power a member of the Royal Family, the Shah (I know real democratic, but those Brits still have a thing for royalty). The Shah was favorable to the West (i.e. anitcommie and gave oil contracts to British Petroleum), which is the reason he was put into power. In 1951 the Iranian people (through Parliament) elected Mohammad Mossadeq as Prime Minister. Mossadeq nationalized the oil industry (taking it away from BP) upsetting the British. The British recruited the US, by telling the US that Iran planned to sell the oil to Russia instead, to help them over through Mossadeq. The Shah flies to Britain, Kermit Roosevelt Jr. flies in with the CIA and with money and weapons provided by the US, kills people and overthrows the democratically elected Mossadeq. The Shah flies back in and implements a brutal totalitarian state, but keeps the commies out the oil flowing west. Until a little known cleric, Ayatollah Khomeini, ignites the hatred of the dictator Shah and the American government that supports him, and overthrows the Shah and implements a shi'a Islamic Republic in 1979.

The extreme Islamist would have never been able to get control over Iran if it wasn't for the US/Britain intervention on behalf of big oil interest. Now they not only hate us for our policy but look to Islam to solve their problems because we killed democracy there.

Example 2 (cont. of Example 1):

At the same time in 1979 a suni baa'thist general rises to power in Iraq (neighbor to Iran). Iran has our hostages and Saddam Hussein is a sunni and an enemy of the shi'a and the Ayatollah himself (political differences from when the Ayatollah was exiled to Iraq when Iran was under the Shah), and he conviently is anitcommie and vows to sell oil to the west. Then in 1980 with money, weapons and technology from the US, Saddam invades Iran to try and overthrow the democratic Islamic government. (Why would Saddam do this, the Islamic revolution was a threat to his power and the US wanted access to the oil back, so they basically made a deal?). This is when he used the chemical weapons provided by the US against the Kurds who saw an opportunity to revolt while Saddam was in such a hard fought battle with Iran. The war ended in a stalemate with over 1 million dead in 1988. After the war Iraq was bogged down in debt. It requested a loan forgiveness from Kuwait who it owed $30 billion to. Kuwait refused. Iraq then requested through OPEC for Kuwait to limit oil production (remember the cheap gas of the early '90s). Kuwait, through pressure from the US, refused. Saddam gets angry, figures that the US is still his friend, and digs up old disputes about Kuwait being apart of Iraq and invades Kuwait. The US who has supported Hussein for the entirety of his rule, decide to support Kuwait, which has just as much oil as Iraq. See we funded Iraq and gave them weapons, then they invaded Kuwait and because of oil relationships, had to fight Saddam and the weapons we gave him. Millions more died at the hands of US weapons.

Example 3 (cont. of Example 2)

2002, our embargo of Iraq (of anything but food coming in and oil coming out), has killed Millions of Iraqis and Saddam is now confused and angry. Bush the second and VP Halliburton, still covet access to oil in Iraq. Using trumped up charges of Islamic extremeism and WMD (how Saddam would ever attack us no one knows) invades Iraq killing more civilians and causing a three way civil war that we are still in.

This is only part of the puzzle. It does not include the Israeli-Palestinian-Egyptian intervention

or the Syria-Lebanon intervention (do you realize that historically Lebanon was part of Syria but Britain wanted a Christian nation to deal with in the middle east, similar to having a jewish nation in Israel)

or our bases in Saudi Arabia

or our intervention in Pakistan/Afghanistan

In every single case we have provided money and weapons to despots who would either fight the commie or give us cheap oil or both, to the determent of democracy and human rights. It is still going on in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan as well.

So if you were a citizen of one of those countries and had to live under a totalitarian state because the west wanted cheap oil, how would you feel?

--Dustan