New Music!!


PalePower

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I've posted a new (or rather, newly recorded) piece on my website. Feedback of any kind is more than welcome!!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=959801&T=5122

~Elizabeth

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That sounds really good. Can't you filter out the buzz with Acid software, if that's what you're using?

You mentioned this was originally a guitar/vocal arrangement. I wouldn't mind hearing that as well.

I have some music on myspace, it's not as nice as yours, it's more hard-rock guitar oriented.

www.myspace.com/healthexam It's a little sloppy and so-so home recording quality.

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Elizabeth,

I finally broke down and listened to something by you. (I finished one important stage of my own project, so I am giving myself a breather.) I am glad I did listen to it. This was good for my head. You definitely have talent and an ear to make a catchy tune. Not all that many people have this and I hope you never become ashamed of it. Simple is beautiful when you need simple.

I hope you don't mind a few suggestions. Please think of them as suggestions only and feel free to accept or discard them at will. Obviously the piece is yours to do with as you please.

I hear the overall form as follows:

A - B - C - A1 - B1 (shortened) - B2 (climax) - Coda (falling off)

Your melody for A is lovely.

I found your transition to B rather forced. Here is something to think about. You are essentially repeating the same phrase 4 times in part A. There is a concept I want you to think about that many great composers use. I call it a "counterstatement." I don't think you will find it in many books (you may find the word but rarely the concept), but it is all over great compositions. How it works is that somewhere in the middle of a repetition, you start veering off in a new direction altogether and break the old pattern as you establish a new one. This is not like motive development. This is actually sounding like your are intending to repeat a phrase or melody in full, but not allowing it to finish about halfway through (sometimes sooner, sometimes later) and taking off for somewhere else. In this case (part A), repeating the same phrase 4 times wears the phrase out right at the beginning unless you are writing a really simple song like a children's tune. So I suggest that instead of doing the 4 phrases, then one bar that doesn't have much anything to do with anything, then B, instead you find a spot in the middle of the 4th repetition and do something else, extending the phrase for an odd number of extra bars, but keeping the melody simple and at a tune level. Then elide into B seamlessly instead of the stop/announce/play of before with that extra plunk/plunk/plunk bar.

B is OK. The melody is not as powerful as A and I think you have it in you to makes it much better—more tuneful. Actually it starts wandering around at random after a few bars. If you get a talented improviser who does good melodies, I have no doubt he would be able to put something really pretty on top of this section—or you could write a tune-like melody yourself. Since you started with a tune-like theme, it is too soon to break that context. Part B actually sounds like an accompaniment missing a tune after the first couple of phrases, so this is easy to fix. Think about it.

C. This is the weakest part of the piece as it wanders all over the place and doesn't really go anywhere. I don't mind the lack of symmetry and one-thing-after-another so much as the lack of mini goals. Something that works really wonderfully in the middle of a section like this is to take a more tune-like 2 or 3 bar phrase, let it come to a phrase end, and repeat it exactly with the same phrase end or (or a slightly varied end). Then off you go in a different direction, but still wandering. This gives you a kind of thematic pause, a sort of conceptual climax, in the middle of all the wandering. I also think you could easily put a long-note kind of melody over much of this section and this would enhance it greatly. You might consider shortening this part, but not too much.

A1 - Lovely again. Lovely, lovely, lovely. If you go for the counterstatement idea, you could vary it here and take B1 to a different key.

B1 - This part is too short. I know the following idea is corny, but you need to sit on the dominant for a few extra bars at the end, or maybe a dominant-like phrase, to build up the proper tension for your climax. Don't be afraid to milk this moment. It is a mistake to rush into a climax. A suspended 4th chord (on the dominant) works really well for this effect with the kind of tune A is.

B2 - Here is your climax. It is pretty as is, but I feel like I want more. You might try repeating the entire section again and see if that does not go into overkill (it might). Or you could do a counterstatement near the end, start to repeat the entire thing and in the middle or somewhat after, do another counterstatement to lead to your coda. You might even consider weaving in some response motives based on A. That way you would keep the simplicity but vary it just enough to make it so no one can telegraph it. (I only like telegraphed climaxes for specific dramatic effects in longer works. The small space of this composition isn't right for one.)

Coda - Here, the wandering I didn't care for earlier is what the doctor ordered. You are falling off from a climax. This is no longer a place for goal-directed movement except toward relaxing. I found your asymmetrical wandering around absolutely charming for this ending. No telegraphing at all, but still falling off. Very pretty.

BUT... There's that clunky last chord. I particularly don't like it. I think you should let the piece die off. Imagine making love, achieving a wonderful climax, winding down to catch your breath. Then you could drift off to sleep in your lover's arms to end the moment. Or you could suddenly jump up to get a glass of water. Your last chord strikes me in the jump-up-for-glass-of-water way.

Anyway, congratulations on a very pretty little inspiration. Do more.

Michael

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Michael,

WOW. You have no idea (actually, you probably do) how wonderful it was to get that kind of feedback. It is VERY much appreciated, particularly your suggestions about counterstatements and how to properly build up tension leading to the climax. (I guess that more or less covered everything you talked about, huh? :D ) I would very much like to apply some of your suggestions. Hopefully when school lets out I'll have some time to rewrite and re-record; if that comes about, I'll be sure to post the new product.

Concerning the melodic structure of the piece, I too have some qualms with it. I think a lot of this can be attributed to its origins - it wasn't intended as a solo piano piece, but as a vocal, band-ish work more reminiscent of pop music structure, like so:

A: first verse

B: chorus

C: interlude (usually that comes after about two verses but I wanted to mix things up, minimal though it was)

A1: second verse

B1: chorus

B2 (Not actually A2, it's the same melody as the B sections, only transposed up an octave and ornamented with background frill): chorus repeat/climax

Coda: instruments trailing off, no vocals, maybe some humming here and there

While this structure works for pop music, I don't think it's very appropriate for a classical solo piano piece. It leads to that chugging, start-stop-and-go feel, as in the lead-in to the B section. It also can lead to a lack of drama, again, as in the B section. The latter was originally meant to the be chorus, and so that weaker-melody feel (I agree with you there) wouldn't have presented as much of a problem since tension could've been achieved to greater effect by held-out vocals, and, of course, the drama of the meaning behind the lyrics.

Basically, structure-wise, I don't think the piece flows very well. It sounds exactly like what it is, a pop song trying to be a classical composition. It's not! It definitely has good elements, but on whole I view "Never Be" more as an easing-into-the-water piece, as a springboard to more sophisticated compositions. (Which is what a lot of my music has been so far - recycling old pop-song ideas into classical pieces.) In the future I look forward to writing music unhampered by the verse-chorus-verse uniform. . . I think I've dabbled enough by now in my potentiality and am now ready to take the next step. =)

Again, thank you so so much for your feedback. If you ever feel like taking another breather from your own projects, feel free to listen and comment some more. (Particularly on this piece: http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=869843&t=767. To date I think it's my best, and I'm quite satisfied with it - which is precisely why I'd love for somebody to dig into it and tell me what I could do even better.)

And good luck to you in all that you're doing!

***

Tex,

Sadly, I don't think I have the equipment to filter out the buzz. . . just Cakewalk Home Studio, and I'm not aware of that being one of its attributes. =( One day! I will have more money! And better equipment! And then these things won't be an issue!

Hm, I don't know if the guitar/vocal original of "Never Be" will ever be (ha, ha) recorded. . . I've lost some of my enthusiasm for it in light of the other music projects I could be working on... But! that's not to say it won't happen some time in the distant future.

I listened to your music, and I must say, congratulations!! That's good stuff! I looove the electronic elements in the background. Do you listen to Ayreon at all? Arjen Lucassen, their songwriter, does a lot of that mixture of electro/metal feel - you might like it. How did you record this? The quality is good (at least, better than my crappy "equipment"). Is everything recorded or did you use drum loops?

***

Brant,

Technically the original already had lyrics, but, hey, feel free to write some of your own! I'd be interested.

***

Thanks to all, keep the feedback coming!! :D

~Elizabeth

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Elizabeth -

It is a delightful creation especially the first subject - and Michael's encouragements can only serve to enhance and improve your creativity further. I found his advice fascinating.

For varieties of modulation styles listen to the early romantic works for piano written in the 30 years between 1815 and 1845. It was a truly ground breaking and revolutionary period. The greats within this period range from later Beethoven and Schubert through to Liszt, Schumann and Chopin.

If you need any particular classical models I can recommend Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words ahead of a number of others. In structural terms I think you might find them a useful guide. Murray Perahia has recorded a delightful selection which you should investigate.

Also check out Satie's Gymnopedies especially in terms of the conclusion of the pieces.

The varieties in popular song structures are also fascinating. Compare the differences between these 4 greats for instance .....Yesterday, (I can't get no) Satisfaction, Hotel California, We are the Champions. Which ones have a chorus? Which ones use both major and minor? Which ones an intro?

Influences are one thing, however - creativity is another. And you have that....let the ideas flow!!

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Elizabeth,

Of course it is B2. I feel like a dummy. I was really tired when I listened to it. Still, the comment on climax preparation stands.

I am changing my comment above to make it correct for future readers (but leaving this post so they know I goofed).

The following paragraph (the new valid one):

B2 - Here is your climax. It is pretty as is, but I feel like I want more. You might try repeating the entire section again and see if that does not go into overkill (it might). Or you could do a counterstatement near the end, start to repeat the entire thing and in the middle or somewhat after, do another counterstatement to lead to your coda. You might even consider weaving in some response motives based on A. That way you would keep the simplicity but vary it just enough to make it so no one can telegraph it. (I only like telegraphed climaxes for specific dramatic effects in longer works. The small space of this composition isn't right for one.)

used to be this (the old one with the error):

A2 - Here is your climax. It is pretty as is, but I feel like I want more. You might try repeating the entire 4-phrase tune and see if that does not go into overkill (it might). Or you could do your counterstatement in the 4th phrase, start to repeat the entire thing and in the middle of the second or third phrase, do another counterstatement to lead to your coda. That way you would keep the simplicity but vary it just enough to make it so no one can telegraph it. (I only like telegraphed climaxes for specific dramatic effects in longer works. The small space of this composition isn't right for one.)

Michael

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Elizabeth,

I can hardly give you the feed-back Michael is able to offer as the visual arts is my thing, but let me say this: I admire and respect you. I admire you for the talent you show and the passion you clearly exhibit. Yes, you have a lot of gifts and it's good to see that your art means something to you, and that it is something inside that needs to be showed. Art and music is not a frill game requiring no skill or standards, and you know this. I see a determined frame of mind to master your craft. Let that fire burn, girl. :turned:

-Victor

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Peter,

Thank you so much for your recommendations. I love piano music from that era, and I'll be sure to look into it with more gusto come this summer. I actually performed one of Mendelssohn's Songs. . . (I think? Or was it...?). It was lovely. I look forward to hearing and studying more of them.

In terms of popular music's structure, you're absolutely right, a whole crapload of it doesn't fall into the verse-chorus-verse pile -- Yes comes to mind in particular. It's good to know. Sadly they don't play the innovative new music on the radio much. Oh well.

***

Michael,

About the B2, not to worry! =D

I also forgot to ask you something on my first reply - what is a telegraphed climax?

***

Victor,

Your encouragement and support is just as valuable as Michael's musical advice -- really means a lot to me! And hey, no worries, the only way this fire's going out is if I get mauled in the face by an 18-wheeler. And even then I'm sure I'd find out some way to come back and possess a body until I get my work done. :D Let's keep the arts thriving!

~Elizabeth

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I also forgot to ask you something on my first reply - what is a telegraphed climax?

Elizabeth,

Telegraphing in music means that you can sing along with something exactly on first hearing. You don't need to hear it first. You already know what it is going to be. Not just climaxes are telegraphed. Almost any musical idea that is overly-obvious is telegraphed.

Here is telegraphing in poetry:

From everything I know of love that's true,

My thoughts of love are always ___________.

If the phrase "thoughts of you" came to mind, you win the prize.

A telegraphed climax is usually one where the melody at the climax (or dramatic phrase for some classical music) is exactly like before, only usually louder and/or higher (octave or in a higher key). In a short composition, it detracts because it is boring.

But it can work in a longer piece. For instance, if you get the chance, listen to the third movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony in E Minor for what I consider to be the mother of all romantic climaxes. The climax melody is completely telegraphed and it is gloriously so. I have no doubt you will be able to recognize it and sing along on first hearing. Even the sequence leading up to it is so logical that it, too, starts being telegraphed about halfway up. (In compensation, the long clarinet melody is difficult to memorize correctly, even though it is simple.)

Michael

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http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=869843&t=767. To date I think it's my best, and I'm quite satisfied with it

I liked this one so much I wrote a review on your AcidPlanet page!

And look at the current hit parade for Classical--I'm just above you!

2 Bizet: petit mari, petite femme!.. F Lemore Classical 2 / 27 10/10 03.23.07

3 Toy shop ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 2 / 21 10/10 03.13.07

4 Horizons (Air No. 28-band) knuxie35 Classical 6 / 44 10/10 03.24.07

5 Adagio cantabile - Piano PianoPlayer Classical 1 / 281 10/10 09.14.05

6 Oh Danny Boy Sir Suicide Jockey Classical 4 / 317 10/10 12.29.05

7 Golliwogg's Cake Walk ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 0 / 19 10/10 03.15.07

8 The Sheepherder ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 1 / 8 10/10 03.15.07

9 Dancing Snow ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 1 / 9 10/10 03.14.07

10 Jimbo's Lullaby ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 1 / 10 10/10 03.13.07

11 Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 1 / 12 10/10 03.12.07

12 Gaia - Antartica faune Classical 0 / 6 10/10 03.25.07

13 Chopin Nocturne Op.9 No.2 ABSYNTH AND ORANGE Classical 2 / 28 10/10 12.01.06

14 the Ghost of Meldrum Hall Funeral Breakfast Classical 0 / 12 10/10 03.26.07

15 Halley's Comet Rodney Rawlings Classical 1 / 7 10/10 03.28.07

16 Waltz for Piano and String Orchestra PalePower Classical 0 / 63 10/10 09.13.06

17 nessun dorma VP6 and vp7 michael kennedy operatic tenor Classical 0 / 12 10/10 02.08.07

18 Toccata Albert Syeles - Classical Classical 0 / 83 10/10 03.04.07

19 Medieval Dance... version 2 AcousticHeart Classical 0 / 70 10/10 02.28.07

20 Schubert - Impromptu in E-Flat Major (Piano) Eddie Classical 0 / 72 10/10 07.26.05

21 Organ Long Loop Abstract meta loops Classical 0 / 13 10/10 12.13.06

22 A musical thought. The Deadly Kind Classical 0 / 86 10/10 03.18.07

23 Orchestral Colors in the Wind Kevin Fletcher Tweedy and KSO Classical 0 / 55 10/10 03.11.07

24 The River Flows Joseph C Raineri Classical 1 / 190 10/10 03.17.07

25 Hell or Heaven Funeral Breakfast Classical 0 / 15 10/10 03.14.07

[There are 4 more pages below this. Don't ask me how it works!]

Edited by ashleyparkerangel
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Hi, Elizabeth --

I liked the piece very much. The use of inner voicing in the middle (as opposed to keeping the melody in the "soprano" all the time) reminded me of my first love, Rachmaninoff, although the piece itself was nothing like Rachmaninoff; accordingly, I always enjoy use of that technique. And I disagreed with Michael's assessment of the final chord; since it was arpeggio'ed, it didn't seem too abrupt to me at all, but a fine, delicate ending to the piece.

Judith

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And I disagreed with Michael's assessment of the final chord; since it was arpeggio'ed, it didn't seem too abrupt to me at all, but a fine, delicate ending to the piece. Judith

I agree completely.

The piece is too "notey" to have lyrics in places; but the main theme could be made into a lovely song.

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Michael - I couldn't agree more regarding Rachmaninov's Symphony 2 Adagio - as a romantic climax it has few equals. It is often played on its own (like the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th) but it is SO integral with the rest of the work that the full impact is lost.

Other pieces that could fall into your category might be that same Mahler movement, the Lento sostenuto (3rd part) of Schumann's Fantasy in C, and perhaps the Wagner Siegfied Idyll??

E.lizabeth -

Do you know the Rachmaninov D major Prelude Op23 ?

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Judith & Rodney,

Thank you, thank you... *bow*

I have to say I'm partial to my ending chord, but I understand where Michael's coming from. I think it would sound a lot better and more natural on a real piano. The dynamics and color on the keyboard I have are crazy difficult to control (I don't even have an una corda pedal!), so the more delicate parts pretty much never come out sounding the way I want them to. . .

***

Peter & Michael,

Of the pieces you listed, I've only heard (and LOVE) Barber's Adagio for Strings. It's the weekend, so I have time to go to Borders and pick up the music you suggested. I'm so excited!!!

~Elizabeth

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Elizabeth, since you are starting out with such promise, I’d like to try influencing you a bit with the following.

I find that my own musical goals are different from those of anyone I’ve ever encountered. I go for something I call “the rhetoric of melody,” and the main reason I love Franz Lehár so much is that he seems to have utterly mastered it.

It is an elusive quality, hard to describe; but it manifests itself in an apparent ability to make tunes that say exactly what one wants them to say on an almost verbal level, as if it were speech. Such melodies often seem to have sprung from the deepest wells of human experience itself.

I’ll give you an example. Listen to the nameless piece of music that starts this clip. In Lehár’s score, it is simply headed “Polonaise,” and it opens Act 2 of The Merry Widow:

As you listen to this dance tune, notice specifically the melody notes, how quickly they come and how deftly they speak. This is my ideal, and it is the hardest thing in music to achieve!

(By the way, I also love the song it introduces, which tells the legend of Vilja, the “fair woodland sprite” with whom a wandering “huntsman” falls in love. Even though this singer takes it a bit too slow!)

If it leaves you cold, that is OK. We all have a different mix of artistic values. Just thought I would try.

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Other pieces that could fall into your category...

Peter,

Barber's Adagio for Strings.

For jazz and smaller elbow room, but still a mother of a climax, there is Invincible by Don Ellis (No. 5 on the Soaring album, and discussion here). I just listened again and I still have goosebumps.

Michael

Absolutely - how could Barber's Adagio have escaped me!!

Wow - that Don Ellis track is awesome. He's new to me so many thanks again!

I have another suggestion in return.....the 3rd movement of Shostakovich Symphony 5?

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I find that my own musical goals are different from those of anyone I’ve ever encountered. I go for something I call “the rhetoric of melody,” and the main reason I love Franz Lehár so much is that he seems to have utterly mastered it.

It is an elusive quality, hard to describe; but it manifests itself in an apparent ability to make tunes that say exactly what one wants them to say on an almost verbal level, as if it were speech. Such melodies often seem to have sprung from the deepest wells of human experience itself.

Interesting and thought provoking....

I may have missed your point entirely, but could this quality also be attributed to Arthur Sullivan and Antonin Dvorak?

It is easy to by-pass Lehar as merely a late romantic composer of (mainly) operettas, but there is definitely more to him than you get at first hearing - and that first hearing always has an immediacy. In the early 70's I had a recording of Der Graf von Luxembourg which was captivating.

Lehar's other works are always overshadowed by the Merry Widow, but there is plenty to enjoy there...arguably for that very quality you talk about.

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Sullivan definitely!

As for Dvorak, I do not know much of his work, but:

Franz Lehár (30 April 1870 - 24 October 1948) was an Austro-Hungarian composer, mainly known for his operettas. Lehár was born in Komárom (Hungary) as the eldest son of a bandmaster in the Austro-Hungarian army. He studied violin and composition but was told by Antonin Dvorak that he had better give up playing and focus on writing music.

It is for that reason that I have been telling myself for years to investigate Dvorak. Can you give me an example of his use of this "rhetoric"?

I'm delighted that someone else seems to grasp what I mean by this term!

By the way, I agree, there were a lot of great melodies in FL's later work. I would mention in his later work "Hab' nur dich allein," "Einer wird kommen," and of course "Dein is mein ganzes Herz."

Edited by ashleyparkerangel
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Yes I too saw that Dvorak reference in Lehar's biog! Lehar found in Richard Tauber an ideal exponent of his lyrical style and if you get a chance to check out Tauber singing Lehar I'm sure you'll be pleased. Shame about the Beverly Sills rendition of Vilja on the YouTube clip because it is rather too slow. Don't know if Lucia Popp ever recorded Merry Widow but she must have done Vilja at some stage. She was an accomplished performed of the Viennese genre.

Dvorak recommends.....

The melodies are everywhere really and it would be easy to say New World Symohony and Slavonic Dances. I'd go for something like the 2 Serenades (one for string and the other winds). I think they (should) encapsulate what you hope to find.

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Yes, I'm familiar with Tauber. My favorite version of Widow is mentioned in this article I wrote about music. That version contains Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's "Vilja," which is the one I'm partial to.

Finally, here's an article I have about Lehár on my site.

Enough! Sorry to hijack this thread so, Elizabeth.

Edited by ashleyparkerangel
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