A "work in progress"

[Addicted2learn]

Mark-

As for the strict and rigid, I had encountered some of that on TG.net, to my delight and surprise then when I met the individual he was nothing like how he came across on the boards. I was initially intimidated and learned a valuable lesson with him. I learned it was simply his convictions that came across so strongly. I have never been one to be intimidated easily; but I also know when I am out of my league. ;) I have never studied physics, quantum or any other kind. My interest in science has developed in the latter yrs. I hope you are all tolerant enough to work through my ignorance. I'm not asking for a handout of kowledge...I'll do my own homework, I may have the occasional question or two. ;)

Dr. Leonard Peikoff, I have heard of, but only in assocoiation w/ Rand. I am working through her writings before delving into others. "Her intellectual heir" has always impressed me. I have an open mind.....I am absorbent as the perverbial sponge but in the end rely on my own judgement. ;)

Chris- Thanks I'll check into it.

Judith- ~waves~ ~~jots down title for list~~...Hi and thanks

Victor & CNA...you two positively gush

~Amy~

Edited November 20, 2006 by Addicted2learn

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

In regard to your search for knowledge in Objectivism, another very important writer is Dr. Leonard Peikoff. He is the intellectual heir to Ayn Rand and is her official spokesman.

Mark,

In the interest of precision, Rand never once declared Peikoff to be her intellectual heir (although she did declare this about Nathaniel Branden in the early days, withdrawing it after the break). What she did do was bequeath her copyrights to Peikoff, endorse his book The Ominous Parallels as being by an Objectivist intellectual (and wrote the introduction), and endorse his lectures on Objectivism as being correct.

That's as far as it went.

The "intellectual heir" title is one that Peikoff himself declared ("Fact and Value" is the earliest I know of, but it might have been earlier). This declaration of "intellectual heir" appears nowhere in Peikoff's books. The declaration is all over the vast majority of books by others published with ARI endorsement, leading to a suspicion that it is some kind of unstated requirement for receiving ARI endorsement. Also, it is given in a Q&A on the ARI website (you have to scroll down):

Who is Leonard Peikoff?

Dr. Leonard Peikoff is Ayn Rand's legal and intellectual heir and the foremost authority on her philosophy.

This is an old debate in Objectivist circles. If you like, I can point you to some other links than the ones given now. Here is a public challenge by Robert Bidinotto. Also, here is a statement by Barbara Branden to Per-Olof Samuelsson in Untangling "Objectivist Schismology" published on his website, The Night Watchman. (Incidentally, his essay is a blast against everybody and he takes no sides.)

Ayn Rand did appoint Nathaniel as her intellectual heir, but after she broke with him she told me that that had been a mistake, and that she never would make such a mistake with anyone else. As a result, I believe Peikoff is her intellectual heir only in his own imagination, and that she never gave him that title. I have never seen any written or spoken statement by Rand that Peikoff is her intellectual heir, only in written and spoken statements by Peikoff.

For a very critical view of the philosophical differences between Peikoff and Rand, see David Kelley's The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand. (You can download a PDF copy for free here.) It is quite a read and some of Kelley's ideas have been grossly misrepresented by Peikoff's supporters. I find it to be an excellent overview of Objectivism in general. Here is some basic information about the Kelley-Peikoff split I put together, including a wealth of links for both sides: Selective timeline and links of the Kelley-Peikoff schism.

At any rate, for Amy, I believe that the most important thing is for her to read everything Objectivism-wise (including stuff about schisms and differences) in the manner she best determines and come to her own conclusions. That goes for you, for me, and for anybody for that matter. Nothing is or should be more sacred to any of us than our independent minds.

Michael

[Paul Mawdsley]

Nothing is or should be more sacred to any of us than our independent minds.

Michael

So true! By extension, this should also be the basic principle of parenting. Nothing is or should be more sacred to any parent than the nurturing of a child's independent mind.

Psychological and social dynamics can open a gaping hole for manipulation and intimidation that bypasses conscious judgement. A parent's goal should be to arm a child's mind against such intrusions. Traditional parenting, instead, tends to aim at tearing the hole wide open to make the child compliant to the parent's (or teacher's or guardian's) whims. Despite the generally higher level of education today, the increase in a more secular worldview, and the advent of the baby-boomer's-- who vocally rebelled against traditional forms of controlling children-- evolving into their role as the establishment, I see many parents and teachers around me today using the same damaging forms of social control that I experienced when I was a child. The guardians of the children are the first to undermine the child's struggles for independent thought and judgement by exposing and manipulating his/her weakness to subconscious social manipulation. Social dynamics forms an intricate subjective realm or matrix that operates on a particular set of principles or code. A good parent's job is to help the child identify the code of this matrix, not to keep the code hidden so the parent can use it to manipulate the child.

Paul

[Chris Grieb]

Michael; Thank you for links about the"intellectual heir" question. Miss Rand could have named Leonard as her intellectual heir in her introduction to TOP. She named him her heir because he was the last one standing. She had removed other people from her will.

[Addicted2learn]

Going a lil' nutsy today- ....Have to finish cleaning one house for a party before going to grandmas for a day of Thanks...she spoils me and the kids so I am very thankful for the break!

If I don't find the time to pop back on before we depart...I would like to wish all of my new friends the happiest of Thanksgivings- Take time to appreciate the good things in life!

I will be back!...lol...I think you folks are stuck with me I have greatly enjoyed the beginnings of what I hope will be mutually beneficial friendships.

Cheers to you all!

~Amy~

[Addicted2learn]

The start of the silly season has kept me busier than anticipated...still here...still reading.... ;)

[Mikee]

Amy,

Read all 725 pages of "The Pillars of Creation" over thanksgiving holiday. Wow. That Oba character sickened me and almost turned me off to Mr. Goodkind (as in "What kind of sicko dreams up this kind of stuff") but it all made sense in the end. Anyway, I'm a fan. I've put the whole series on my want list for Christmas. Hope to knock off the first two during my ten days off.

Have you ever used the "Literature Map" website?:

http://www.literature-map.com/terry+goodkind.html

Mike Erickson

[Addicted2learn]

wow....POC was definately not the first I would have reccomended. My first initial opinion was that was one of his weakest in the series. It is an important change in the storyline, but not his strongest...and yes Oba ..../shudders...lol

Upon my second and third reading of the series....it hit me like a ton of bricks; that the root of the novel was to introduce prejudices. It has been debated that Mr. Goodkind deliberately introduced new characters not only to further the storyline but to demonstrate how easily we can fall victim. For years he had been critisized even amoung fans that this was his worst novel...fans like it the least etc. etc. Not only was the main character demonstrating prejudices but the fans were as well. Its a novel not like the others, the main characters of the series were not even seen until the final chapters when Jennson had to utilize her own mind and knowledge to make a decision. I have yet to discuss this with Mr Goodkind, to know if it was intended or a side effect. I can't help but thinking it was indeed intended. He's like that...he likes to make you think.

It is extremely hard for me to pick a favorite of his. Most of his fans would instantly say Faith of the Fallen. Most see it as his homage to Ayn Rand. Wizard's First Rule, his first, had me hooked and wanting more. He reminded me how much I enjoy learning.

I am eager to discuss any and all with you. <big smile> If you liked POC I can't wait for you to read the others! He is one of the few authors I can re-read. I seem to learn something new everytime I re-read it. Kinda like Atlas does for me.

and No I have never used literature map...it looks cool, I'm gonna check it out. Though lol...I havent read any of the others "close" to him. Ayn Rand isn't even on the page!?! I think that tends to vary what you get out of his novels...I don't read them for the fantasy aspect...it was a fluke, and a gift. I laughed cause its one of his pet peeves, yet he turned me on to the fantasy genre. Thanks!

Edited December 10, 2006 by Addicted2learn

[Mikee]

Amy,

You'll have to give me some time!

Rand comes up on the same page as Heinlein and Asimov in the literature map. Also Larry Niven. I've read a lot more "hard" sci-fi than fantasy. Heinlein and Niven were favorites. I read many of William Gibson books and liked them a lot a few years ago. I'd have to give it a lot of thought to come up with all of the authors I've liked through the years. I guess Silverberg and Ursula Le Guinn opened the fantasy door for me. And I've watched "Lord of the Rings" and the Harry Potter series with enjoyment.

I haven't done a lot of fiction reading the last few years. I'll probably reread some old favorites when I finish with the Terry Goodkind series. I'll read "Wizards First Rule" first. I don't read fiction to learn a point of view or philosophy. I just like a good story with a good plot, preferably with lots of action, written by someone I have some possibility of actually liking if I knew them in person.

The "Literature-Map" I haven't actually tried out. That is, buy a book by an unknown author near one of my favorites. Just an interesting website I stumbled across.

Cheers!

[Chris Grieb]

Amy; A web site you might like to look at is Paper Tiger Books. They sell the works of Frank Spearman,Nevill Shute, Victor Hugo and Edward Cline in fiction. They sell older works of philosphy, logic, and grammar. Spearman is a writer of novels and short stories set in the railroad in the last of the 19th century. His most famous work is Whispering Smith which was made into a movie with Alan Ladd. Look at the web site.

[Addicted2learn]

I'll read "Wizards First Rule" first. I don't read fiction to learn a point of view or philosophy. I just like a good story with a good plot, preferably with lots of action, written by someone I have some possibility of actually liking if I knew them in person.

Cheers!

I stumbled into philosophy by reading fantasy. I too read to enjoy the story...but this one reminded me like I said before, how much I enjoy learning. The philosophy came to me a bit slower because I had never heard of O'ism at that point. The story itself resonated with me so much I eventually found Mr. Goodkind's site and learned about O'ism. The storyline itself peaked my curiosity enough to search for more information and folks of caliber to discuss the novels.

Mr Goodkind is a kind and endearing person, even if he does at times come off as absolute. As you know, O'ists are looked upon as uncaring when dealing w/ absolutes.

~waves to all again~...apologies for my absence...extra time has been ellusive as of late

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Amy,

It's great to see you are alive and kicking.

I have the first 3 Goodkind books, but I haven't started yet. Same problem—time. But I will get to them eventually and tell you my impressions of them (and they do look promising).

Michael

[Addicted2learn]

I am still alive I promise!....and still a"work in progress"

Real life has kept me at bay from the boards for a while- Unfortunately I also lost my mom this summer, so there were a few trips back and forth to Ohio. Emotionally, mentally and physically enduring.

It looks like things have been updated around here, so once again it will take me a bit to get reacquainted. BTW I like the new layout.

I have also decided to try my hand at writing again. I figure this may be my last year as a stay-home-mom, so I want to try and take advantage of any sliver of time. My librarian is *not* liking me right now due to the amount of research books I have requested . When the time is right, I would love to bounce off some ideas and concepts your way and see what thoughts and opinions may be out there. I may just end up writing for me...but that is ok too. If I learn and am strengthened by it...then all the better.

Its good to be back and see some familiar faces...I will do my best to frequent more often

Cheers

~Amy

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Amy!!!!

Good to see you!

I am very sorry to hear about your mother. Please accept Kat's and my condolences. This is a really hard time to get through.

Please write and post, since you are up for it. I am sure you will get some excellent feedback. I have a sneaking suspicion that what you write will be worth reading.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Amy;

I'm glad to see you back.

Losing parents is hard. I lost both of mine within three months of each other.

I liked your posts.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[sbeaulieu]

Hi, Amy!

Fascinating...another member who was turned to O'ism through Terry's works!

Looking forward to engaging in discussions about them as well.

For most of you that have "lived" the Objectivist philosophy, Ayn Rand (I assume) is the core of your exposure. For me, it was Terry Goodkind. I can't wait for the dialogues that will likely stem from his stories.

~ Shane