Come back, little Shebas and Solomons

[caroljane]

Along with new members, what old members would any of you like to see posting  again?  My first thought is X-ray for those who remember - knowledge, wit, conviviality and endless patience for Adams endless raids in their epic long running battle. Of course, the incomparable Selene himself, but I m sure he would be here if he were still in the land of the living, so I presume he is gone and we're unlikely to look on his like again. 

I see Angela visited my profile  in 2019 so if she is ever browsing again----miss you girlfriend!

 

 

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[dldelancey]

I'm beyond happy to see you posting again, Caroljane.

[Peter]

I miss her and David Lee who is mentioned below. Thanks for bringing her up Carol Jane, errr, or is Duance? And for the full treatment just type in Xray *Angela* on OL and search.  Peter

XRAY wrote: Oh, an ethical system based on empathy does extend beyond the family.

Earlier XRAY wrote: This is a value judgment I don't share. For it reveals an attitude of non-empathy and revenge for those who don't happen to share one's own values . . . Imo Atlas Shrugged is basically a huge revenge phantasy put in writing.
 

XRAY also wrote about Atlas Shrugged: Rand's both elitist and wooden thinking here is hard to bear. The litmus test can easily be done if you visualize instead of John Galt going on strike for years, garbage men in NYC going on strike for a mere month.

XRAY wrote: Empathy cannot be enforced. The effectiveness of empathy does not lie in the application of force.

Xray wrote: Here we have it again: deciding arbitrarily what is and what is not important in others' lives. This is as far removed from any individualism as it can get.

I wrote that the author Jennifer Burns called Objectivism a creed and Xray responded: Do you think the term "creed" is an apt choice? If yes, why? If not, why not? end quote 

Phil wrote about Dickens: He keeps such a long sentence 'rolling' and 'building' by not tiring us.

And Xray responded: Great analysis, Phil!

Xray wrote: Rand was quite committed to logic, but her claim that "It is the use of logic that enables man to determine what is and what is not a fact" disregards that "logical" conclusions can be also drawn from false premises not corresponding to fact.
For example, a child drawing conclusions based on the premise that monsters exist, it is a logical act to look under the bed to check if one is lurking there. end quote

I wrote about Atlas Shrugged: False thinking people with their phony ideals deserved the havoc they wreaked.
Angela with her XRAY vision replied: This is a value judgment I don't share. For it reveals an attitude of non-empathy and revenge for those who don't happen to share one's own values . . . Imo Atlas Shrugged is basically a huge revenge phantasy put in writing. end quote

First off, spelling fantasy with a “ph” is melodramatic. Secondly, revenge if properly applied is called, “Justice.” Yet it was heavy reading, that part where Ayn cataloged the reasons for the train passenger’s deaths. I remember arguing this very point, with the guy who introduced me to “Atlas Shrugged,” when I was sixteen. What if some of these people are innocent? Why should they die? Of course it is artistic license to assume all are guilty, and I understood that after his explanation. And I do feel empathy for those who think wrongly and suffer the consequences, many times because the consequences are way out of proportion to the bad thinking.

XRAY wrote: Rand's both elitist and wooden thinking here is hard to bear. The litmus test can easily be done if you visualize instead of John Galt going on strike for years, garbage men in NYC going on strike for a mere month. end quote

That’s not equivalent at any level. But it is funny! Wooden thinking and a wooden heart equals Objectivism? That is a new perspective, from The Mother Teresa School of Poverty and Penance. The Judas, “kiss of death,” to Ayn bearing her cross.

Angela, I wish Rand had kept the dictionary versions of definitions. Since she redefined things, it’s caused some terrible misunderstandings. Someone already mentioned the following but I want to give my take on it.

From Merriam Webster, Altruism. 1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others. 2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species.

From The Ayn Rand Lexicon: Altruism: What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value. Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others . . . . end quotes

I think Ayn saw Altruism (and not might makes right) used as the usual rationale for establishing Statist and Ultra-Nationalistic Governments AND justification for the worst atrocities of those Totalitarian Governments. The Soviet Union and Communist China all used Altruism as their excuse to create a supposed classless state but with a informal ‘monarchy’ in charge, just as American Liberal/Progressives see themselves as the ultimate ruling elite.  Communism destroyed Ayn’s family. And The Soviet Union’s nukes could have destroyed Truth, Justice and the American Way.

Nazi Germany used Altruism to foster Nationalism and Der Fuhrer. Do it for the Fuhrer. Do it for the Fatherland. Do it for the Race. Just do it, or die. The dictionary version does not sound so malevolent, but go to the creative writing section and read David Lee’s “Charity.” That will creep you out on “The Good Nuns” forever.  “The hills are alive with the sound of music . . .” Semper cogitans fidele, Peter Taylor

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

8 hours ago, Peter said:

XRAY wrote: Empathy cannot be enforced. The effectiveness of empathy does not lie in the application of force.

Peter,

This is an interesting thought. People who say this normally support governments that try to force people to act empathetically. Literally force them on pain of punishment.

Michael

[caroljane]

Also shouting out to PDS and 9th Doctor. I for one miss talking to people who know their Aeschylus from their Ecos, and when to deke and when to shoot straight.