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5 minutes ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Yes, mask laws in Georgia courthouse are bad.

But what Peter said Biden is proposing is far worse:

Get that? Vaccination ID.

Ellen

 

 

5 minutes ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

 

 

 

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Yes, I did get that, and it illustrates my point.  A public health measure is not viewed as what it is , a measure to limit the initiation of force by citizens upon each other, but as - well, what? An infringement on your sacred right to get sick, and make others sick?

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1 hour ago, caroljane said:

Yes, I did get that, and it illustrates my point.  A public health measure is not viewed as what it is , a measure to limit the initiation of force by citizens upon each other, but as - well, what? An infringement on your sacred right to get sick, and make others sick?

What did you get?  In your reply to Peter you wrote "mask laws."

Are you saying that you wrote one thing although you knew that what you wrote was not what Peter said?

Second, could you possibly mean your implication that a person's refusing to get vaccinated* is an initiation of force on other citizens?!?!

* Since the Covid "vaccines" aren’t really vaccines, interpret that as "vaccinated" in this context.  The question applies more broadly, however.

Ellen

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Some further comment after Ellen's post ...

Quoting caroljane: “... it [a vaccination ID] illustrates my point.  A public health measure is not viewed [by those who object to this?] as what it is, a measure to limit the initiation of force by citizens upon each other, but as – well, what? An infringement on your sacred right to get sick, and make others sick?”

The ending is sarcastic and “initiation of force” is designed to push Objectivists’ buttons.

The mask orders, “lockdowns” of healthy people, limiting businesses, closing businesses, forbidding public assembly, etc. have to do with naked power, nothing to do with public health – where is the science as they say – and neither does a vaccination ID.  (It would be a federally issued ID that would track your medical history and be required to use the post office, fly, eventually to use a bank, etc.)  The last is monstrous even if the Pfizer’s experimental vaccine (which isn’t a vaccine) were proven safe, and it hasn’t been.  It is, as I just said, experimental (link to abridged talk by Simone Gold).

Let’s get real.  Even without treatment a healthy and non-decrepit person’s chance of getting very sick from Covid-19 is near zero.  With treatment – and there are several inexpensive ones available – it is inconsequential

Life is inherently, metaphysically, risky.  You engage in reasonable precautions to minimize risk.  What has been going on is not reasonable precautions but a naked power grab by totalitarians.  Neo-communists would be a fitting label too.

 

 

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Speaking of the NIOF principle , it does imply reciprocity, no? 

Who is going to stop licking his honey pots and kick Pooh's ass ? I suppose the question is when are enough people in this country( and the rest of the west) going to demand a Pooh ass kicking and get someone to do it?

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2 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Since the Covid "vaccines" aren’t really vaccines, interpret that as "vaccinated" in this context.

You keep saying this, but it's not true.

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1 hour ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

 

Second, could you possibly mean your implication that a person's refusing to get vaccinated* is an initiation of force on other citizens?!?!

 

Ellen

Yes, I certainly mean that.. An unvaccinated person is capable of contracting and spreading Covid without even showing symptoms himself, and there is no way to know who, masked or unmasked, is vaccinated without proof. 

Until everyone who wants the vaccine has had it, I don't want to unknowingly encounter my possible killer among those who refuse it,and then join the other few old corpses who were not in the lucky survivors category. I especially don't want it for my children and grandchildren among whose age groups, because of variants, are showing up more and more in the new cases , even here.

Your right to heroically fight all the possible future consequences of a short term public health measure, stops at my right to life. I will even say it trumps it, since Mr T appears to agree with me on this, judging by his own actions.

 

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How about ebola?

Shouldn't we shut down everything, especially small businesses and all schools, until an ebola vaccine is developed and everyone is vaccinated?

I mean, ebola is scary...

Oh...

Ebola is not a life-threatening emergency right now, right?

:evil: 

Well, an enormous number of scientists--a number that is massively growing every day--are now saying COVID-19 is not a life-threatening emergency to populations. So why the insistence (including grandstanding in mock outrage) on so much control by governments? Or the Big Juicy One. Why shoudl people with huge financial interests in vaccines keep things lopsided? Could it be they want money and power?

Nah... That could never happen, right?

:evil: 

I could say that this engineered propaganda campaign makes people so afraid, they turn into toadies of the oligarchy, except for those who already are toadies of the oligarchy because they like being toadies of the oligarchy, but I won't say it.

:evil: 

Michael

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16 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Carol,

That's way oversimplified.

Here's just one contrary example. President Trump decreed the building of a gigantic statue park of American heroes. This included the park being spread out across the country. On public lands.

The right had no problem at all with this.

:) 

Michael

Can't wait to visit it! The way the Covid vax discussion is going here, I won't be surprised to find Typhoid Mary among the heroines.

Just how much bigger is Trump's statue going to be compared with the lesser heroes? Or is he going to renovate Rushmore?

 

 

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2 hours ago, william.scherk said:

You keep saying this, but it's not true.

William,

I've read people with far better credentials than you or me say it is true.

But there are many people who agree with you.

In my view, the idea of vaccines is no longer a medical issue, but is now a team sport.

On another point, let me ask you something. How would you like to be banned from OL for saying that?

:evil:  :) 

I'm not going to do that but the fake news media and big tech do that to people who disagree with them (and you) all the time. All. The. Time.

Do you think the powers that be should do that?

If I banned you because you disagreed with me over facts, would you be likely to agree with me in the future? Over anything? Or would you think that if I knew for certain, I would not feel so threatened by disagreement, I would shut down free speech?

That's your science with a capital "S" for you these day.

That's what you are supporting.

In this case, you are on the side of bullies and evil.

Michael

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42 minutes ago, caroljane said:

Yes, I certainly mean that.. An unvaccinated person is capable of contracting and spreading Covid without even showing symptoms himself, and there is no way to know who, masked or unmasked, is vaccinated without proof. 

Until everyone who wants the vaccine has had it, I don't want to unknowingly encounter my possible killer among those who refuse it,and then join the other few old corpses who were not in the lucky survivors category. I especially don't want it for my children and grandchildren among whose age groups, because of variants, are showing up more and more in the new cases , even here.

Your right to heroically fight all the possible future consequences of a short term public health measure, stops at my right to life. I will even say it trumps it, since Mr T appears to agree with me on this, judging by his own actions.

 

Are you aware that you did not answer the question I asked?

Ellen

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51 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

You keep saying this, but it's not true.

Ahh...  "Experts" are telling you, trust us, this thing that isn’t a vaccine is one...we just enlarge our understanding of biochemical mechanism so as to tweak ourselves into being justified in using the familiar term we want to use.

Ellen

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1 hour ago, caroljane said:

Michael

Can't wait to visit it! The way the Covid vax discussion is going here, I won't be surprised to find Typhoid Mary among the heroines.

Just how much bigger is Trump's statue going to be compared with the lesser heroes? Or is he going to renovate Rushmore?

Carol,

I don't think there will be anything to mock in those parks, but I am sure you will find something. :evil: 

Well, all right... there might be something legit. Biden is now in charge of the parks. So I am sure we will get to see statues like the following in the parks:

For example, something like this will be a statue of George Washington: 

image.png

 

And something like this will be statue of Pocahontas.

image.png

 

And the statue of Thomas Edison will look more or less like this:

image.png 

 

I think Biden will add that extra something to the artistic expression of statue sculpting, don't you?

Of course it will all cost 15 times or more than budgeted to get the right talent...

:)

Michael

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oh Michael, what exciting, bold and beautiful concepts of art will be realized, I shall reserve advance tickets now for the opening, if I last..

But in your enthusiasm you have mislabelled these three thrilling inspiring objets d'art, you silly boy.

The wings are obviously embodying the soaring spirit of Pocahontas, taking flight to get away from those smelly Englishmen and their imperialism in the boundless liberality of free womanhood!

Edison is perfectly captured in that playful futuristic jumble, hinting of the big hot mess all his inventions have come to.

And noble Washington, in tribute , has been given real teeth, instead of wooden ones.

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Mark and his fanboys are pretty cavalier about the decrepit and not-so-healthy portion of the world's population, and as internet ambassador of the DUH community, I wish to register the strongest of protests against their hurtful dismissive attitude.

We have feelings too, and the feeling that emanates from them says, "Why should I smother myself in a dorky mask  and cover up my best features, just on the off-chance I might get near to some old wreck with pre-existing conditions? People like that should just stay home, anyway."

And we do stay home, if we have one, quite a lot anyway.

Offendedly,

S. Spruce (Miss)

Burton Crescent

 

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No, I’m not cavalier about them.  Who the hell are they to ruin my life for some tiny possible benefit to them?

Who are these old people who sacrifice the young to themselves?  (By the way, the iron hand of the state is doing a lot more than forcing people to wear useless masks.)

“Fanboy” wasn’t in my vocabulary so I looked it up.  Merriam-Webster online:   a boy or man who is an extremely or overly enthusiastic fan of someone or something

It’s a disparaging word.  I don’t think I have any “fanboys.”

 

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10 minutes ago, Mark said:

No, I’m not cavalier about them.  Who the hell are they to ruin my life for some tiny possible benefit to them?

Who are these old people who sacrifice the young to themselves?  (By the way, the iron hand of the state is doing a lot more than forcing people to wear useless masks.)

“Fanboy” wasn’t in my vocabulary so I looked it up.  Merriam-Webster online:   a boy or man who is an extremely or overly enthusiastic fan of someone or something

It’s negative word.  I don’t think I have any “fanboys.”

 

Since the tiny possible benefit could be my life, I am quite happy to ruin your life to save mine, and you would still have a lot of life left, being young, even though it was ruined.

I wouldn't sacrifice you though, that would be wrong, at least not until I'm through sacrificing my own young relatives and random strangers I kidnap on Halloween.

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15 hours ago, Mark said:

I don’t think I have any “fanboys.”

Mark,

I agree.

Those who like your posts click on like about what you write. They are not flattering you as a person.

I haven't seen any indication of a cult of personality emerge around you.

I'm not criticizing you when I say that, either.

We tangle at times, but I think you are a good dude...

:)

Michael

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23 hours ago, Mark said:

The ending is sarcastic and “initiation of force” is designed to push Objectivists’ buttons.

 

 

 

NIOF has been regularly used disingenuously "to push (~libertarian's~) buttons", I agree. The right of ownership of one's own body.

Well, of course, but inadequate.

The Objectivist formulation comes from one's right to *freedom of action*- which must not be interfered with, by others' initiation of force.

This is a positive and active right, not a passive one. No one in general is required to take especial care of you, and one has no expectation of such. That is a *claim* on others. Such as, one doesn't wander onto a busy highway, expecting that motorists all manage to avoid knocking one down.

A virus transmitted on one is *not* IOF, or interfering with your freedom of action. They, or one, if inclined and/or deems essential, have the right to act for their good, whatever they see it to be. THAT must be respected on others' private property. All bets are off in public spaces--and on properties where the owners do not decree and specify those proscribed, pandemic measures.

No one has the 'right' to not get infected by a transmittable disease.

Whether by direct contact, contact with surfaces, or airborne. They DO have the right to be free to care for themselves. Concerned enough by the virus, take every choice and action to avoid it, stay indoors, wear three masks if needing or wanting to go out, similarly protect those you care about - do not demand, you have no right, that everyone must care for your - and all the public's health...

Their life goes on.

But hasn't. Considering the human destruction to all lives and "man's life" perpetrated on the healthier, younger, etc. who have had no freedom of action for over a year, and counting. Who spares a thought for them?

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18 hours ago, caroljane said:

Ellen, I can't seem to locate the unanswered question, please repeat.

You quoted it in the post of yours I quoted.

Anyway, I have no interest in discussing Covid further with you, seeing things you wrote to Mark.

Ellen

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14 hours ago, Peter said:

Oh, no. Not another Zombi movie.

Oh, yes! Coming soon to a theatre near you, "Dead but THEY WON'T LIEDOWN"!!  

Now shooting (sic) with an all star cast on location at exotic Mar a Lago.

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