Coronavirus


Peter

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15 hours ago, Dglgmut said:

This analogy sucks. People keep making it.

The difference between something like a seat belt, or an airbag, and the vaccine is that anyone can observer or deduce the risks/benefits of seat belts and airbags. With the vaccine all of the data is third-hand at best. Which expert's interpretation of the data do you trust? For most people it's the 'experts' that happen to agree with their politics.

The difference ...anyone can observe and deduce... etc.,  I think there's much in that. Few people have the expertise to analyze a drug for its benefits and risky side effects and make future projections. The rest of us don't know more than we read and hear, "third - hand", since no one can really "follow the science" from viral nature to test tube, to safety testing to the human auto-immune system. There's a large degree of necessary trust involved in experts. On the one side there could be reasonable doubt to outright cynicism, the other, may tend to the True Believer. Avoiding that likely false alternative is consuming. I personally think big pharma is doing the best they can - for one, they each have too much reputation and status at stake, which means profitability. And no doubt they hire the minds best in the field. They have competition to make the best product. On the other hand, ha, there are also some credible scientists outside the mainstream who question the policy methodology and make excellent points about the long term effects of mass vaccinations on the human immunity and virus mutants.  Which, to a degree, one can "observe and deduce". Yup, the politics has been all over this pandemic. Lock downs to vaccinations.

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

To me it is good to be wary but follow the medical science. Once again, I caution all friends of Rand to respect the science and be safe.

Peter,

I'm saying this as an epistemological observation, not as the tug of war that has been going on in this thread. 

I honestly don't see where you yourself "follow the medical science." The best I have seen you present is that you say you trust people who say they trust the science. And you do as they say.

But as to actual science, I haven't see you post any or discuss any. And plenty of actual science has been posted on this thread. Just off the top of my head, I posted a compilation by Sharyl Attkisson of hundreds of scientific papers. I've presented the guy who invented the mRNA technology used in the current vaccines (Dr. Robert Malone) explaining how it works. I've presented a lot of science. But you never comment about it.

You only comment about people who are at least one step removed from the science (like your local physicians, the news, etc.), and usually a lot more steps.

Then you throw the name Rand into the mix.

But that doesn't work as science. In my view, if you want to keep telling people to follow the science, why not take a look at the science?

The battle I see you engaged in is mostly rhetorical, not scientific. Even the call for people to "follow the science" is rhetoric since virus and vaccine science itself is never discussed in that context. And, to be fair, I see a lot of rhetoric in opposition when you post.

So, if that brings satisfaction, I have no problem with it. Keep on keeping on. Rhetoric is one way ideas are brought to the surface with a dose of emotion so people can look at them and decide for themselves.

But I have to make clear for readers that science will not choose a rhetorical side. Science, when done correctly, unveils truths about reality. It's purpose is not to win or lose arguments. Nor is its purpose to tell others what they should or should not do. 

How about scientists? Heh. Scientists as a group is another matter. Scientists are humans and are vulnerable to being flawed in the same manner all humans are (vanity, cognitive biases, struggle for standing, etc. etc. etc.). There are equally accredited scientists at odds right now over vaccines. Epistemologically, listening to a scientist from one side or the other is not the same thing as looking at the actual science.

And there is science on this thread. For those interested, please look at it. Granted, I don't go deep since I am not a scientist. My perspective starts from being a layperson. That means the science I have presented has mostly been that which can be understood by laypeople.

And other people have presented items of science in this thread, too. Usually with the same qualification.

But, as an epistemological trap, there have been a lot of proclamations and statistics from both official organizations and those opposing thrown about as science. For those who want to identify correctly, beware of those (all sides).

On a personal note, you took the vax, I did not. Health-wise, we are both safe and sound so far. I hope this continues. You are a friend and I wish you nothing but well. 

If, in the future, you are objectively proven to be right and I wrong in our different conclusions, and this kept you safe, I would feel nothing but relief and pleasure. I have seen nothing that convinces me to change my conclusions so far, but that thought comes from the heart.

Michael

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Heh...

No sooner did I post that then this popped up.

Stelter needs to be holding a copy of Why Do You Think You Think? by Floyd Ferris (from Atlas Shrugged) as he talks that garbage.

He's telling people they are too stupid to do their own research. Leave that part to their betters. Like him for instance...

So, please please please people. Close your eyes and follow Big Brother. Big Brother knows what's best for you. He will take care of you. No need to think. He has thought for you. And you can't think anyway...

Hell, he may be right. Wanna see proof? I bet most of Stelter's audience think they are looking at a potato.

:)

Michael

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2 hours ago, anthony said:

needed for their child's - own, personal - health and safety?

Or, to 'stop the spread' of those diseases?

The answer is both.

Consider something guys and dolls. Why do you think few fans of Rand on OL advocate or even "say," they have gotten the vaccine? One reason may be the intimidation factor. Perhaps, if they do the rational thing medically they will not be appreciated by those communicating on OL . . . so they say nothing.  

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37 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

If, in the future, you are objectively proven to be right and I wrong in our different conclusions, and this kept you safe, I would feel nothing but relief and pleasure. I have seen nothing that convinces me to change my conclusions so far, but that thought comes from the heart.

Well said. I think you and others will change your conclusions based on the evidence. The "sky isn't falling" but time is passing by. 

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1 hour ago, anthony said:

The rest of us don't know more than we read and hear, "third - hand", since no one can really "follow the science" from viral nature to test tube, to safety testing to the human auto-immune system. There's a large degree of necessary trust involved in experts.

Actually, some of us - I'm one - can, and I did, have alarm bells ringing loudly immediately upon reading a description of how these mRNA experimental "jabs" (not, properly speaking, vaccines) work.  I'd no more willingly comply with the experiment than take up juggling with lit sticks of dynamite for a hobby.

The way things are going with results, my immediate "no way, short of at gun point" reaction looks more and more justified.  And we haven’t gotten to long-term damage yet, or to what's being done to fetal development.  There have been a good number of miscarriages.  What will be the results for pregnancies brought to term…??

I think it is terrible to give the mRNA jabs to children.  Reckless endangerment of the child's future development.  The situation is nothing like protecting a child from deadly or crippling diseases.  I'm no way opposed to vaccines against polio, smallpox, rubella, diphtheria…. I had polio, before there was a vaccine.  Would that there had been a vaccine and I'd gotten it.  I'd have been spared life-long physical troubles which are worsening (post polio).

I am not an anti-vaxxer.

But:  I think that these mRNA things are proving to be a medical catastrophe - along with being a statist's bonanza.

Regarding the latter - Tony, I think that you've been doing a really good job of spelling out the difference between rational self-interest and service to the collective.  Bravo.

Ellen

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Alberta has over 70% fully jabbed but are seeing 1500-2000 new cases/day, over 2000 in hospital/230ish in intensive care.  77%ish are unvaccinated.  20+deaths/day.  Doesn’t look great.  
Wwonder if and when pharma will develop an ACTUAL vaccine…

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11 minutes ago, Jules Troy said:

Wwonder if and when pharma will develop an ACTUAL vaccine…

I agree Jules. This vaccine may be beneficial but side affects could be lessened.  To everyone, if you want to know about Covid and the flu from the doctor’s mouth ask your personal physician or his nurse or the personnel at a medical clinic. Oh. You already know what they will say? Maybe the following is what you would hear. Peter

From The Mayo Clinic: Vaccines to prevent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) are perhaps the best hope for ending the pandemic. A COVID-19 vaccine might: Prevent you from getting COVID-19 or from becoming seriously ill or dying due to COVID-19 Prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others Add to the number of people in the community who are protected from getting COVID-19 — making it harder for the disease to spread and contributing to herd immunity Prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from spreading and replicating, which allows it to mutate and possibly become more resistant to vaccines

From The CDC: Why should people get vaccinated against flu? Influenza (flu) is a potentially serious disease that can lead to hospitalization and sometimes even death. Every flu season is different, and influenza can affect people differently, but millions of people get flu every year, hundreds of thousands of people are hospitalized and thousands to tens of thousands of people die from flu-related causes every year. Flu can mean a few days of feeling bad and missing work or it can result in more serious illness.

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3 minutes ago, Jules Troy said:

I had a sore arm for a couple days, ohhhHHHHhh the pain the PAINnnn(snickers).

Most people have no immediate ill effect.  Some die within days or a week or two later.  Some have horrific problems develop, a range of things, organ malfunctions, skin coming off in patches, paralysis, an amputation needed.

And it's looking like being jabbed with the mRNA shots makes at least some people more susceptible to catching Covid and to having a serious case if they do catch it.

Currently, we have no idea why some people are badly affected whereas others (so far) appear to have no ill effects.  I've been wondering if there's something analogous to an Rh factor which makes the difference, but, if so, I don’t have a guess as to what the factor might be.

Ellen

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I went to a local hospital web site affiliated with my doctor, and they had no advice about when to get the flu shot after receiving the Covid shot. Americans have lost a year or more of longevity because of Covid, on average . . . and of course the vast majority of the increase in deaths is due to Covid-19 and underlying conditions. Evidence is mounting that being fully vaccinated against the flu and Covid is beneficial and you won't lose years off your lifespan. Optimistically, every year medical science is "researching" longevity, we gain time . . . but pandemics can lessen that precious time. M: This is for you Bond. For your eyes only . . . You only live twice. 

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11 hours ago, Peter said:

The answer is both.

Consider something guys and dolls. Why do you think few fans of Rand on OL advocate or even "say," they have gotten the vaccine? One reason may be the intimidation factor. Perhaps, if they do the rational thing medically they will not be appreciated by those communicating on OL . . . so they say nothing.  

I'm only happy I don't need to decide these actions today for my youngster. Unvaccinated children will be stigmatized and separated from normal lives as will and are adults.

One is "both" doing good for 'society' - and for one's kid?

For polio, smallpox, etc I'd perhaps agree. Only as a secondary benefit, one might be reducing the overall national rate of spread by .0001 % (say) and may take small self-credit for that.

On a rational value-hierarchy, one's child's life and well-being is plainly the overwhelming, prime value and responsibility. Both motives then are far, far from equal.

But Covid19 is not smallpox. A child today isn't in danger from it directly. His/her risk-benefit equation tilts heavily the other way.

Who says we say nothing, Peter? I believe you are imagining this from a very limited sampling, and no one is antivaxx on principle on OL. There is also not a sign of intimidation from O'ist quarters to not be vaxxed. The opposite, that I've seen by Y Brook. You keep returning to this rationally medical thing as though rationality and medical rationality are distinct entities. For me, when I inevitably get jabbed, less for reasons of (my presently, pretty good) immune system - and more for the incoming coercion/blackmail by govt. and businesses which would - otherwise - limit my free movement, I will say I have, without embarrassment.

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NOT "because of Covid", instead because of compelled interventions. Because of - the anti-science, unnecessary, sacrificial, one size for all, policy of lockdowns etc. thrust on everyone in a supposed causation from Covid.

What's human-constructed (or -forced) did not 'have to be'. What's metaphysical, a virus, "had to be".

I was considering if there isn't some detectable Categorical Imperative behind 1. universal lockdowns and 2. universal vaccinations.

A universal law.

*Act only according to that maxim by which you can also will that it become a universal law*.

I.Kant

From one to all. Isn't that maxim what we see going on?

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8 hours ago, Peter said:

I agree Jules. This vaccine may be beneficial but side affects could be lessened.  To everyone, if you want to know about Covid and the flu from the doctor’s mouth ask your personal physician or his nurse or the personnel at a medical clinic. Oh. You already know what they will say? Maybe the following is what you would hear. Peter

From The Mayo Clinic: Vaccines to prevent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) are perhaps the best hope for ending the pandemic. A COVID-19 vaccine might: Prevent you from getting COVID-19 or from becoming seriously ill or dying due to COVID-19 Prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others Add to the number of people in the community who are protected from getting COVID-19 — making it harder for the disease to spread and contributing to herd immunity Prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from spreading and replicating, which allows it to mutate and possibly become more resistant to vaccines

From The CDC: Why should people get vaccinated against flu? Influenza (flu) is a potentially serious disease that can lead to hospitalization and sometimes even death. Every flu season is different, and influenza can affect people differently, but millions of people get flu every year, hundreds of thousands of people are hospitalized and thousands to tens of thousands of people die from flu-related causes every year. Flu can mean a few days of feeling bad and missing work or it can result in more serious illness.

Well said Peter! 

Funny about the flu but I have not heard of one person, nor has anyone else told me one person who has gotten the flu since around, mummy, March 2020.

Not a single person.

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7 minutes ago, anthony said:

I was considering if there isn't some detectable Categorical Imperative behind 1. universal lockdowns and 2. universal vaccinations.

Tony,

Woah...

A Categorical Imperative mindset.

I love it.

:) 

Seriously. 

I have been wondering where the impulse to boil everything down to a single cause, or single essence, or even single description of reality comes from. We all suffer from this "oneness" urge, so I imagine there is a cognitive bias about it in our brains.

But when we start building the structure of our intellects, I notice some people go straight there and that's where they stay whereas other people try to make sure they haven't missed identifying something important as their default.

I think we can say the first type uses Categorical Imperative epistemology, or from a psychological perspective, has a Categorical Imperative personality. Or, to use the term that jumped into my mind with this epiphany on reading your post, approaches everything by default with a Categorical Imperative mindset. :) 

Michael

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8 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Most people have no immediate ill effect.  Some die within days or a week or two later.  Some have horrific problems develop, a range of things, organ malfunctions, skin coming off in patches, paralysis, an amputation needed.

And it's looking like being jabbed with the mRNA shots makes at least some people more susceptible to catching Covid and to having a serious case if they do catch it.

Currently, we have no idea why some people are badly affected whereas others (so far) appear to have no ill effects.  I've been wondering if there's something analogous to an Rh factor which makes the difference, but, if so, I don’t have a guess as to what the factor might be.

Ellen

That , hypoxia, is what I've been thinking about or seeing since almost the beginning of the pandemic. I understand as a layman that the condition of pneumonia can cause low oxygenation in a mechanical sense , the organ or tissue of the lungs 'puts O2 into the blood cells ', but if the lungs are filled with fluid they work less efficiently and there would be less O2 in the bloodstream. I had seen reports and heard anecdotally the some people had no symptoms of lung function drop off, no difficulty or sensation of difficulty in breathing but their 'pulseox' numbers were extremely low. It seemed like the infection may be 'centralized' in the 'bloodstream' and result in lung damage as opposed to the virus attacking the lungs and the resultant lung damage being the driver of lower oxygenation levels in the blood. And that thought has been one of the lingering reasons why I suspected the mRNA platform used to trigger the spike protein would be a bad candidate because what if 'just' the presence of the spike protein triggers the hypoxia.

I've also seen where they have suspicions that hypoxia and the body's reactions at a cellular level  basically increases the potential for infection by increasing the expression of the ACE 2 receptors , which I take to mean making it 'easier' for the virus to infect more cells. Which would seem to coincide with jabbed people , people with an artificially increased 'base' level of spike protein being more susceptible to poor conditions related to blood gas exchange modalities and higher viral replication . But as my current favorite evolutionary biologists say    " welcome to complex systems" .

And those thoughts are exhaustively heard for me to square with a nascent understanding of immunology. Coupled with a distrust of the institutions driving the 'science' of covid leads me to look for a heavier reliance on more therapeutic routes to dealing with the scourge.

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Blow darts.

That's the solution.

Blow darts from drones.

And throw in the Nazi Jewish star for good measure.

:) 

James O'Keefe strikes again.

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I want to comment, but this guy, Taylor Lee, is so loopy, he speaks for himself. The problem is he is an FDA Economist.

The FDA is hiring people like that guy!

Dayaamm!

 

You can get most of the transcript here at the Project Veritas site:

Let's quote some of it here:

Quote

Project Veritas released the second video of its COVID vaccine investigative series today exposing U.S. Food and Drug Administration [FDA] economist, Taylor Lee, who was recorded calling for forced COVID vaccinations and a registry for all unvaccinated Americans.

Lee said that U.S. Government policy could emulate Nazi Germany when it comes to the COVID vaccine.

“Census goes door-to-door if you don’t respond. So, we have the infrastructure to do it [forced COVID vaccinations]. I mean, it’ll cost a ton of money. But I think, at that point, I think there needs to be a registry of people who aren’t vaccinated. Although that’s sounding very [much like Nazi] Germany,” Lee said.

“Nazi Germany…I mean, think about it like the Jewish Star [for unvaccinated Americans],” he said.

“So, if you put every anti-vaxxer, like sheep, into like Texas and you closed off Texas from the rest of the world, and you go, ‘Okay, you be you in Texas until we deal with this [pandemic].’”

Lee said that due to a large portion of the African American community being hesitant to take the COVID vaccine, the solution would be to “blow dart” on them...

And there is this beauty:

Quote

Lee affirmed that “wealthy white people” are more likely to get the COVID vaccine because they are “educated”...

 

 

It's hard to criticize something like that. What can one expose when it's all on the nose and flaunted? You have bigotry, sheer evil, sheer ignorance, and insanity all mixed together and sitting in a position of power in the US government.

I can only think of one thing to say that is productive: We have to remove this guy from power.

Michael

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4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

Woah...

A Categorical Imperative mindset.

I love it.

:) 

Seriously. 

I have been wondering where the impulse to boil everything down to a single cause, or single essence, or even single description of reality comes from. We all suffer from this "oneness" urge, so I imagine there is a cognitive bias about it in our brains.

But when we start building the structure of our intellects, I notice some people go straight there and that's where they stay whereas other people try to make sure they haven't missed identifying something important as their default.

I think we can say the first type uses Categorical Imperative epistemology, or from a psychological perspective, has a Categorical Imperative personality. Or, to use the term that jumped into my mind with this epiphany on reading your post, approaches everything by default with a Categorical Imperative mindset. :) 

Michael

Yes, I'm glad you noticed the same phenomenon. Kant runs deep. One clue was when people were demanding, accusingly: "What if it were your own grandma who got sick?!!

(Simple reply, "I take care of and protect MY 'grandma' - don't you do the same?")

All the dissenting epidemiologists, virologists and immunologists, you notice, stated the same premise. The 1000's of Great Barrington signers, Wittkowski, Malone and Vanden Boscche - all I read of, have deplored mass locking down and vaccinating as the given, blanket, universal policy response. No wonder they had to be silenced and vilified, they are seen to be immoral.

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2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I can only think of one thing to say that is productive: We have to remove this guy from power.

Michael

The biggest worry I have is how tamed by fear a people can get, and proportionately how the governments take over their individual power, to make them feel less afraid.

Repression creeps up on us by increments. Find 'a group', nominate them as the cause of our fears and problems, give them inferior status, segregate them from society and any functions, put an identifying mark on them and this can happen: "Things happened very slowly".

Image preview 

 

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1 hour ago, anthony said:

(Simple reply, "I take care of and protect MY 'grandma' - don't you do the same?")

I heard from my Veteran's Administration. Pfizer booster shots for severely immuno-compromised only. Flu shots available now. "Big" flu shots for vets over 65.

Someone mentioned few or any flu outbreaks in their area. Same here. Odd. Well I suppose staying home or masked for a year keeps you safe. However, like astronauts in space you need to challenge your immune system.

Unlike those Covid party attendees I don't want to risk it or get sick. Ykkk. The news is showing fights on airplanes over masks. Over 4000 incidents in American skies this year. One airline has banned drinking alcohol during the flight.       

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8 hours ago, tmj said:

It seems utterly impossible that there are no influenza infections. If there are no documented diagnoses of it then there has to be a problem with testing or reporting.

If there's any whiff of a positive PCR, the infection is reported as Covid.  Same issue with the missing influenza deaths.

And keep in mind that the PCR produces loads of false positives (and that the death count is overstated by a factor of maybe a couple hundred percent - i.e., that it's about a third of what’s reported).

Ellen

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The AMA has issued guidelines to doctors on how to lie about the jabs.  They don’t put it like that - guidelines on how to lie - but it’s what it is.

gianforte-vaccine.jpg
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The American Medical Association (AMA) recently released its Winter 2021 “AMA COVID-19 Guide: Background/Messaging on Vaccines, Vaccine Clinical Trials & Combatting Vaccine Misinformation.” The...

Ellen

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