Coronavirus

[anthony]

17 hours ago, ThatGuy said:

Concerns over reports like this are far from arbitrary, Harry.

I've noticed time after time from articles by their writers, the ARIans take their 'inescapable truths' from the mainstream media and Leftist Press.

Nice and easy, relying on sources which reduce the news and information to one 'narrative'. ("Fake news" I think is more about media's omission of important/critical facts and opinions, than an outright commission of deceit/falsity).

Why dig further into the dissenting expert voices and probable contradictions and dichotomies - some S is not P - when you can look clever publishing a simplistic, authoritative Objectivist text that is "not even weak man" as you said.

That's just on unearthing accurate information. Value-wise about the facts, the "concerns" you mention by the majority of healthy and young people, their "value-judgments", are real and valid also: "Why do *I* need this thing? Assuming even the optimal outcome - that the vaccines work perfectly and are safe?". The concerns are genuine worries for many, anything but "arbitrary" which HB clearly invokes as the closest thing to (right wing) conspiracy theories - or "mysticism", and so, q.e.d,  not momentarily worth considering - arbitrary.

 

[ThatGuy]

58 minutes ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

I've told you that my doctor was surprised (at my annual exam) that I hadn’t gotten "vaxxed" and I informed him of things he didn’t know.  He'd been merely believing official medical sources which have been lying, lying, lying.

He withdrew the recommendation that I "get the shot."

It's like talking to a brick wall, Ellen. A brick wall of willful evasion, on his part.
A familiar phrase comes to mind, here: "blank-out."

 

[anthony]

I believe a good part of Peter's "get the jab" is from personal concern for those of us here, some as I assume, over 65 years +/-.

He is also ambiguous. Would he advise any and all the general public the same? Why? Particularly, that number who knowingly have strong immune systems, and/or with natural immunity, over and above, making them invulnerable, (by the standard of all usual, accepted, health-and-life-risks)? That's an explanation I don't hear. He has said he wouldn't support mandated vaccination.

[Ellen Stuttle]

23 minutes ago, ThatGuy said:

It's like talking to a brick wall, Ellen. A brick wall of willful evasion, on his part.
A familiar phrase comes to mind, here: "blank-out."

 

Yes, it is like that - although the metaphor I think of is an ostrich with its head in the sand, because Peter so resolutely refuses even to look.

I would drop it entirely with him if not for…an 11-year-old granddaughter whose parents might listen to Peter in deciding whether or not to give the child the shots.

I hope she is spared.

Damn it, there are the tears forming in my eyes again.  I am so upset about the OK for young children.  Teenagers was already awful, young children…

Crime against humanity, like some are wanting to instigate Nuremberg-style trials contending. Atrocity.

Ellen

[Jules Troy]

1 hour ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

What is that supposed to mean?

Whatever, I am not amused, and, no, I do not miss Jon.

I did like Jon quite a bit prior to his becoming rather a fanatic.  By the time he was banned, I was glad to have him gone.

Ellen

Yeah I’m pretty sure that’s a sentiment everyone shares.

[Peter]

Anthony wrote, “Assuming even the best outcome - that the vaccines work and are safe". 

I would be interested if any hospital in any country, university hospital, legitimate doctor, the AMA, the CDC, a reputable medical publication, a personal doctor, etc., recommends AGAINST getting the coronavirus vaccination. I think that the numbers of deaths from coronavirus reported in journals around the world sway most people to at least consider the vaccine. As many of you get older and more vulnerable you may reconsider receiving the vaccine. I think Anthony’s age of 65 for reconsideration is reasonable.

And as time passes and more data comes in, the world’s people may and should, willingly accept this vaccine along with cholera, diphtheria, pneumococcal, pertussis, hepatitis, polio, rubella, measles, shingles, smallpox, tetanus, human papillomavirus, flu, tuberculosis, typhoid, yellow fever, mumps, etc. The world’s peoples overwhelmingly accept protection from these diseases. Vaccines are a “sign of civilization” in my estimation. Many of the vaccines I just mentioned are Mandatory.

Anthony wrote, “Would he advise all the general public the same? Why? Particularly, that number who knowingly have strong immune systems, and/or with natural immunity, over and above, making them invulnerable, (by the standard of all usual, accepted, life-risks)?” 

The Coronavirus vaccine has become politicized. So once again I recommend listening to your doctor Anthony. I agree that at this time if you present a bunch of info explaining why you don’t want the shot, he or she will say, “Then (Ellen or whoever) don’t get the shot.” And yes presently it should be your choice. Your doctor may disagree . . . if you want to be examined. I have recently been to the Veteran’s Administration Clinic and they required masks and temperature taking as you entered the building.

I have heard of cases where hospital workers did not want to get the shot, even when they may be working around Coronavirus infected patients. I do not find that rational. If a private company or institution requires vaccines, that is their choice, and it is your choice to quit rather than get vaccines. As an auxiliary question, would anyone care if a medical person or dentist did not where a mask when they treated you? Peter      

[tmj]

" , would anyone care if a medical person or dentist did not where a mask when they treated you? Peter      "

Short of the 'bubble suits' , bio-hazard positive pressure , any filtration device a person could wear that would even start to afford an appreciable amount of virus particle size protection would most likely negatively affect their cognitive and motor skills , the deterioration of which would be increased with the length of time worn , I 'd rather they worn none.

Keeping people 'safe' from each others' air in room would require two bubble suits , so not very examination/treatment friendly.

Cloth and surgical masks slow the spread of droplets and airborn particles , particles large enough to be trapped by the 'weave', the other 'bad humors' are free to fly about.

Air circulation and volume are the factors one should scrutinize in determining a 'safe' environment when in the company of other humans.

[anthony]

15 hours ago, Peter said:

Anthony wrote, “Assuming even the best outcome - that the vaccines work and are safe". 

I would be interested if any hospital in any country, university hospital, legitimate doctor, the AMA, the CDC, a reputable medical publication, a personal doctor, etc., recommends AGAINST getting the coronavirus vaccination. I think that the numbers of deaths from coronavirus reported in journals around the world sway most people to at least consider the vaccine. As many of you get older and more vulnerable you may reconsider receiving the vaccine. I think Anthony’s age of 65 for reconsideration is reasonable.

  

Peter, again, you are taking the general view. Let's get specific. Many doctors have and do strongly recommend ¬against¬ the shot for certain, low to non-risk categories of patient. That's a lot of people, adults and kids...

They "target"- iow - not "blanket". They examine "individual context". These are proper ethical medical practitioners, who - First, do no harm. What motivates those others and the institutions I really can only guess. 'Good intentions', ideology, greed, ignorance, status, ambition, reputation, conformity, political ties, bribery, blackmail - who knows?

"Good?" - "for whom, and for what purpose?" Risk/reward can't be repeated enough - so, many of the vaxx hesitant, let's say, might have 0.1% risk of severe illness and/or death from coronavirus and 0.2% risk from the vaccine. (Of course impossible to measure). But you get the gist: what would he/she decide on balance? To not take it. Rationally. For the present, anyway. Moreso, when they can use prophylactic medicines and treatments available - and more coming, you can bet.

Never forget that the purpose of every other vaccine is FIRST to protect the single recipient/child, not for community immunity. Conversely, maybe for the first time, these were deceptively touted as bringing about herd immunity and ending the pandemic. Now their proponents are backing off when they find transmission still going on, with virus mutations, and predicting boosters for years to come. But they haven't stopped the headlong rush to get every single person, bar none, 'involved' (with what looks like desperation to me) trebling down on their errors and (likely) lies.

My position is the same, certainly in favor of invaluable, modern vaccines, and with these vaxxes, I am not extremely against them in every case; I think they are a boon for many hi-risk and would have been so for me when I considered the time was right. Way it's going I will probably have to comply quite soon to remain mobile and unrestricted.

[Peter]

1 hour ago, tmj said:

Air circulation and volume are the factors one should scrutinize in determining a 'safe' environment when in the company of other humans.

Does that line of reasoning include gloves on medical personnel or required handwashing? "Better safe than sorry" is not unreasonable in many instances. 

What bugs me, is that this has become a "right wing conspiracy." I wonder what the stats will show for anti coronavirus vaccine people compared to the general or left wing'ed who got the shots? 

I have Fox Business in the background and it looks like the S&P and the DOW are doing well. 36,158 for the DOW right now at 3:55 in the afternoon.     

[tmj]

The difference between handwashing and mask wearing is that one has an appreciable effect. Disinfecting digits and commonly used medical devices ( repeated use among different patients) before contacting another is practically the mother of the 'science' of sterility. Cloth face diapers are a different universe , integrate a little .

Using a chemical or heat to kill 'germs' on contact on surfaces , is a far different thing than trying to stop particles in 'the air'. Cloth face diapers don't stop the germs from circulating, the best and perhaps only defense is to do 'something' to the 'air', it really is common sense and not so mysterious. Air circulation would move the germs away and increasing the 'ambient' volume means the concentrations of the various particles would be dissipated.

Single/discrete protein specific mRNA injections are vaccines like face masks are autoclaves.

And skepticism about mRNA spike protein jabs isn't political, that is just one of the narratives being pushed by MSM.

I'm gonna offer you two pills,( hint take the red one )

[william.scherk]

2 hours ago, tmj said:

Cloth face diapers don't stop the germs from circulating

I agree that absorbent diapers, disposable or reusable-after-washing, are not particularly useful things to wear on the head, unless one pisses or shits from the array of outlets on a face. 

But ... where is the supporting data on "cloth face diapers"? Or, what kinds of research on various 'protective' face masks have you considered? What's your opinion on N95 masks, for example -- and how have you formed your opinion?

In other news, some updates at the World in Data COVID Data Explorer:

The improvements allow animated comparisons between countries:

Direct link: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by william.scherk

[Ellen Stuttle]

5 hours ago, Peter said:

And as time passes and more data comes in, the world’s people may and should, willingly accept this vaccine along with cholera, diphtheria, pneumococcal, pertussis, hepatitis, polio, rubella, measles, shingles, smallpox, tetanus, human papillomavirus, flu, tuberculosis, typhoid, yellow fever, mumps, etc

As time passes, the world’s people will increasingly realize what some of us already realize:

The pseudo-vaccines aren’t remotely the protectors the real vaccines you mention are.  Nowhere near the league.

Tony still believes that the pseudo-vaccines provide some protection and would be advisable for persons at high risk from Covid.  I don’t believe that they even do that, whereas on the other hand they pose long-term risk even for those (of whom there are many) who have evidenced no adverse reaction beyond the typical sore arm for awhile at the injection locus.  Elderly people who got the jabs and showed no adverse effect yet will likely die anyway before long-term consequences become a problem for them.  The younger the person, the more prospect for future trouble.

Note:  I'm talking about the mRNA injections.  I haven’t really looked into whether the adenovirus-based actual, albeit odd, vaccines provide some protection.  Maybe they do, although all of them have the sort of clotting risks which have plagued the history of attempts to develop successful vaccines against coronaviruses.

(There's a reason why those sorts of problems occur.  It has to do with the body "considering" the upper respiratory tract more as an outer layer, like skin, than an inner organ.  The defense reaction is different than with an internal invader.)

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

4 hours ago, tmj said:

Short of the 'bubble suits' , bio-hazard positive pressure , any filtration device a person could wear that would even start to afford an appreciable amount of virus particle size protection would most likely negatively affect their cognitive and motor skills , the deterioration of which would be increased with the length of time worn , I 'd rather they worn none.

Amen.  And to your other comments re sanitizing.

Wearing a mask when doing surgery is one thing.  Yes, operating room personnel should do that to impede particulate matter from getting into a wound.

And of course hand washing, etc.

But the silly anti-Covid flimflam masks only contribute to oxygenation and itching problems, etc.

Here's a bizarre unanticipated consequence of requiring masks in medical offices.  It was found in ophthalmological procedures - such as the 8-weekly injection I get in my left eye - that the patient’s wearing a mask increases the risk of infection because the exhaled breath is partly channeled around the mask edges, including upward into the eye.

So…what to do, given the medical-establishment mask requirement?

The solution adopted is to tape the top of the mask sealed on the skin with surgical tape.

Hurts getting the damn tape off - and I'm left with lingering skin sensitivity for several days afterward.

The smart thing to do would be to dispense with the masks, and the doctors and techs know that.  But they have to comply with the regulations.

Just one mini-insanity in the worldwide psychotic episode of this "pandemic."

Ellen

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There is one thing the vaccines are doing well.

They are filling the butts of the Big Pharma cronies with more money than they ever dreamed would come their way.

 

And it's all from government payments. It's not even up to the "customer" who uses their product.

Like it or not, that is fact.

Michael

[tmj]

William

I’d rather talk about proper circulation and volume . 

In the ‘beginning ‘ I ordered a pack of some sort of single layer cloth-like ‘neckgaters’ and was permitted entry to all venues that required masks and face coverings ,they are medically useless but socially acceptable, they were theatrical. Most of the others I mingled with were protected in the same manner , and that was at a time when we were all the unwashed. 

My brother in law sent us a supply of n95 masks that I learned how to ‘fit’, but found them generally irritating and avoided situations where the protection afforded may or may not have been negligible . One study , which I can’t cite unfortunately,  talked about the situation required to be exposed to a viral load of significance  would be with an infectious person in a 10’x 10’ room of normal circulation for 15 minutes, so I basically settled on that as a benchmark .Studies on quantifying mask efficacy just didn’t do it for me , I was more interested in air flow and being cognizant of areas or situations where I thought a lack of circulation or volume would increase the risk of obtaining a significant ‘viral load’. We open windows and use our ceiling fans with ‘nonhousehold others’ and entertain outside as much as possible. So far so good , even made it through a week in Nashville honky-tonking. Obviously I live anecdotally , my life isn’t a scientific study, nor am I enamored of the slate of scientific studies coming out of say the last 20 months or so , especially ones widely touted , something about the touting feels like a tell .

Have you seen studies that suggest focusing on flow and volume is just spitting in the wind ? 

[Peter]

6 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Just one mini-insanity in the worldwide psychotic episode of this "pandemic."

Ellen

QAnon supporters gather over theory that JFK Jr. will emerge, announce Trump to be reinstated’ Marina Pitofsky, USA TODAY

[Mark]

On 11/2/2021 at 10:43 PM, Ellen Stuttle said:

Mark,

This looks like another article worth noting:

Spontaneous Abortions and Policies on COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine Use During Pregnancy

Thanks, Ellen. I read the abstract.

Steve Kirsch, pioneer inventor of the optical mouse who’s worth about a hundred million dollars, is active in the “anti-mRNA-vax” movement.  He began looking into the subject after the daughter of a friend of his suffered an abortion after taking the vaccine.  See this article though it’s mostly a hatchet job.  Elsewhere he has written: “She miscarried at 25 weeks and is having an abortion on 6/9/21. She had her first shot 7 weeks ago, and her second shot 4 weeks ago. The baby had severe bleeding of the brain and other disfigurements. Her gynecologist had never seen anything like that before in her life. They called in a specialist who said it was probably a genetic defect (because everyone buys into the narrative that the vaccine is safe it is always ruled out as a possible cause). No VAERS report. No CDC report. Yet the doctors I’ve talked to say that it is over 99% certain it was the vaccine. The family doesn’t want an autopsy for fear that their daughter will find out it was the vaccine. This is a perfect example of how these horrible side effects just never get reported anywhere.”

While mentioning Kirsch I have to say I wouldn’t promote his work without a huge qualification.  He’s been pushing Fluvoxamine as part of the treatment for covid.  Fluvoxamine is a psychoactive drug, specifically a serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI).  If it helps treat covid I suppose it might be useful if the doctor has to throw everything at a recalcitrant case, used just that one time. Since other very safe drugs have proven so effective, what’s the point of promoting a dangerous drug?  He sees no problem with Fluvoxamine at all and suggests it should always be used along with the other drugs when treating covid.

 

[anthony]

Huh, we know masking has been increasingly symbolic. A visible gesture to the general public, which everyone has been so conditioned into because of the initial, fearful presumption that infecting someone is going to certainly kill him/her (or someone down the line). Horror movie material. Masking etc.etc. didn't work as intended--arguably perhaps reducing transmission by a few decimal points, preventing the onset of natural herd immunity. It is not a sin to transmit this disease among other - presumably -  healthy-enough people (otherwise, they should not be out and about). One doesn't have any ~right~ to not get infected by any disease.

[Ellen Stuttle]

5 hours ago, Mark said:

See this article though it’s mostly a hatchet job.

Note the publication: MIT Technology Review.

MIT is another of the once-gold-standard-in-science institutions which have become collectors of ill-gotten government largesse.

Of course MIT had already gone the way of the dark side on the climate issue.  They've had practice.

5 hours ago, Mark said:

While mentioning Kirsch I have to say I wouldn’t promote his work without a huge qualification.

So Kirsch doesn’t sound reliable himself.  Nevertheless, the automatic demonizing of opposition opinions by "scientific" institutions is indicative of how far the former greats have descended.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

12 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

There is one thing the vaccines are doing well.

They are filling the butts of the Big Pharma cronies with more money than they ever dreamed would come their way.

 

And it's all from government payments. It's not even up to the "customer" who uses their product.

Like it or not, that is fact.

Michael

And now look what Pfizer is doing.  The 10s of billions they've already raked in from selling poison isn’t enough for them.

PURE EVIL: Disturbing Pfizer Ad Tells Kids They'll Get Superpowers from COVID Jab (VIDEO)

WWW.THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM

---

This is truly pure evil. Pfizer was given the go-ahead this week from the CDC to give the experimental COVID vaccine to children. Children have a greater chance of drowning, dying in a car wreck or dying from the...

Ellen

[anthony]

Jesus. Horrifying, child propaganda. Get those brains washed, young? Settled into self-sacrifice and duty to the other - for life.

Your life is not your own; Socialists in the making.

The Jesuits: give us your child until seven and we have him for life...

Read recently a strap line on TV, Pfizer expects revenue from vaccines to be $36 b. this year.

Deserving of more, certain Oists claim.

[Marc]

17 hours ago, Peter said:

Does that line of reasoning include gloves on medical personnel or required handwashing? "Better safe than sorry" is not unreasonable in many instances. 

What bugs me, is that this has become a "right wing conspiracy." I wonder what the stats will show for anti coronavirus vaccine people compared to the general or left wing'ed who got the shots? 

I have Fox Business in the background and it looks like the S&P and the DOW are doing well. 36,158 for the DOW right now at 3:55 in the afternoon.     

Just saying my man but 36,000 on the DOW is not really 36,000 when you take in hyperinflation and what 36,000 really gets you these days.

Something like 40% of all USD printed in history has bn printed in the last 18 months.

[ThatGuy]

17 hours ago, Peter said:

What bugs me, is that this has become a "right wing conspiracy." I wonder what the stats will show for anti coronavirus vaccine people compared to the general or left wing'ed who got the shots? 

I have Fox Business in the background and it looks like the S&P and the DOW are doing well. 36,158 for the DOW right now at 3:55 in the afternoon.     

Is there a station at which to board this free-associative train-of-thought? Or is this just another riddle from the troll under the bridge?

"One of these things is not like the other..."
 

[ThatGuy]

21 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

I've told you that my doctor was surprised (at my annual exam) that I hadn’t gotten "vaxxed" and I informed him of things he didn’t know.  He'd been merely believing official medical sources which have been lying, lying, lying.

He withdrew the recommendation that I "get the shot."

"One day later..."

Hmmm...no response to this answer from the one who asked the question? Beuller? Beuller?
How long before the question is asked again, I wonder? But that presupposes that the question was asked in good faith...

The aurora borealis was potentially visible in much of the northern US last week, as far south and east as Pennsylvania, thanks to a large solar flare. It was cloudy here, of course, but would have made a fine sight to see...
 

The aurora may creep south on Saturday, appearing from Pennsylvania to Oregon because of a powerful solar flare

WWW.YAHOO.COM

---

Scientists expect more solar storms and eruptions in the coming years, as the sun ramps up to peak activity in 2025.

 

[anthony]

17 hours ago, Peter said:

 

What bugs me, is that this has become a "right wing conspiracy." I wonder what the stats will show for anti coronavirus vaccine people compared to the general or left wing'ed who got the shots? 

    

You haven't noticed the politicized, Left-wing, Woke, conspiracy?

One which has taken in many gullible folk, here too, that any and all objections to getting vaxxed, willy-nilly, is a "right wing conspiracy"?