Michael Stuart Kelly

Terrorist Attack in Christchurch, New Zealand

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16 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

The video is in here https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/03/17/new-zealand-the-unraveling-of-a-israeli-mass-murder/

2nd and 3rd to last graphics in article. 16:58.

 

The video seems now to be somehow disabled, censored.

I don’t where else it may be viewable.

They screwed up bad and it is no wonder they need that video gone so badly.

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What was it Ayn Rand named that, if still present, precludes the moral use of force against government?

Is it still present if the peoples of entire nations are prevented from knowing that their big mass shooting was FAKED?

“In the wake of last week's terror attacks at two New Zealand mosques which left 50 dead, several websites which either reported on the incident, hosted footage of the attacks, or have simply allowed people to engage in uncensored discussion such as Dissenter or Zero Hedge, have been partially or completely blocked in both New Zealand and Australia for the sake of "protecting consumers," according to the CEOs of three New Zealand telcos.”

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-19/after-blocking-zerohedge-and-others-nz-telcos-demand-big-tech-censorship-surge

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ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent: A full list of blocked websites can be found below: voat, 4chan, 8ch, liveleak, archive, Bitchute, zerohedge, kiwifarms

https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/isps-in-au-and-nz-start-censoring-the-internet-without-legal-precedent-a-full-list-of-blocked-websites-can-be-found-below-voat-4chan-8ch-liveleak-archive-bitchute-zerohedge-kiwifarms/

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On 3/19/2019 at 3:58 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

Why the qualifier? Why talk about "full-blown" when I'm using the word altruism without a qualifier?

I'm not confused about what I am addressing. I've been doing this online thing for over 15 years and you would not believe the level of knuckleheadedness in our subcommunity.

I can't remember the name of the tidal wave disaster about a decade ago (I could probably look it up), but after it happened and practically destroyed a few island paradises, some idiot or other over at ARI published, under the auspices of ARI, an article saying it was immoral and evil to help the victims of the disaster because that would be altruistic. Thankfully, they took that garbage down.

But still they had it up for a few days. So in my view, they are confused about what the truly truthy true altruism is. Not me.

I see this discussion as a war of jargon, not concept. And, as I am getting sick of leftwing politically correct speech wrecking the entire news industry, I see no virtue in adhering to altruism as a kneejerk term in our subcommunity.

That kind of one-definition-only approach worked for the world of the novel Atlas Shrugged. That's because the novel had a theme. But out here in real-land, open any dictionary and anyone can see that all words (except for two or three) come with at least two definitions. That's just the way English works.

Try to understand conceptually what I am saying, then realize that the boo-boo word you want to split hairs over has been used by people in our subcommunity countless times to mean the benevolence I am talking about, not just the manipulation Rand was talking about. Then you will understand why I am no longer on board with using this jargon in such a rigid fashion.

I do agree with you about Rand's portrayal of altruism when it is used for evil purposes. But, having seen the good stuff called evil over and over and over because of Objectivism's own form of political correctness, I've lost patience with the semantics game. (btw - They've even crucified David Kelley over his writing on benevolence, calling it altruism in disguise.)

I have an interesting concept for you: poetic justice. This is the motor of most great storytelling. Guess what one scholar calls it when the punishment is meted out by a heroic avenger? Altruistic punishment. (The idea is that the avenger suffers personal loss to avenge the suffering of another who he may or may not know.) The scholar's name is William Flesch and he wrote a book about it called Comeuppance. It's a book rich in wonderful concepts (seriously great ideas), but written in one of the worst academic drivel styles I have ever encountered. He makes postmodern proto-feminist garbage against the patriarchy of male gerbils causing slave societies sound clear. It's a highly irritating book because of this, but well worth the effort to translate it into something resembling English if you have the patience. :) 

In my early days of Randian influence, I would have simply seen the term "altruistic punishment," then determined this was an evil book without looking further. Nowadays I look. We can call poetic justice anything we want, but the concept is going to remain the same. Poetic justice is not what Rand meant when she used the term "altruism." So do you see the colossal error I would have made in my early days over jargon?

It's not worth it. We should split hairs over concepts, not just words. We should fight over the candy bar, not the wrapper.

(And no, I won't give you my half.)

:) 

Michael

"Full-blown" altruism is a rare qualifier by me, I use it only in relation to Watson's "pathological altruism" (aimed at the Prog- Left), cleverly recognized even by that non-O'ist.... Since many people are not cognizant of altruism's wider and deeper nature, innocently taking it at face value. i.e. Just being kind, helpful or considerate to others, so getting sucked in. Then, the many non-innocents know also that invoking "altruism" and their distorted versions of 'empathy' unfailingly submits others' minds and actions to their will. And there we see the SJW's, media, and all the rest. If there's any doubt about the atrocities of altruism/otherism, I suggest to see it in the context of interference in others'  lives, minds, freedom. That "interference" we can take to any degree and kind. (Not reasoned argument/persuasion, of course, which we notice is logically, the loathed target of today's altruists). "Interference" goes counter to acknowledging the general "other" as having an inalienable value in themselves and their lives, (as well as their potential value to one - far secondarily). To wrap up on others and our relations with them, there are those specific individuals to whom one gives one's attention, affection, respect, cooperation (etc.etc.), based on one's actual - known - value in them.

But, in every sense, either using others by this now, totally implanted 'morality' as the instruments to your gains -and/or, being used by others for their ends, is where *sacrificial* altruism laid down by Comte and accurate to him comes in. Rand didn't invent the concept nor use the term idiosyncratically, she simply saw straight through its premises and effects. Comte reported on and admired what he saw in how societies function, but was blind to (evaded) much underlying self-interest, and he didn't estimate the benevolence factor, but developed his ethics out of the citizen's necessary, selfless duty ... all for all. One huge blob of selflessness. You see the results of his observations and ethics at work still (and worse than ever). Giving money, the material and physical side of altruism is just the iceberg-tip - some inexperienced Objectivists miss the big context and then could make ludicrous errors, like objections to helping out in emergencies, which you've pointed out. I am not unhappy I've not long been too privy to as much " knuckleheadedness" in this community as you. Naturally I've seen some and will see more, but I accept them as others' struggles and mistakes, where I have my own to concern me. When it distracts from the important things, some ignorance of the back-story and others' doings and statements is not always a bad thing. ;)

Michael, to me the key to understanding the essential nature of altruism is in one definition by AR: "surrendering" the self, "self-abnegation". Which is the precondition for its survival. Clearly, sacrificers can't operate if there aren't self-sacrificers - especially when they are restricted from using physical force. The two go together, occasionally running in the same person, like now. What it means to 'negate' oneself, one's mind, i.e. one's rational standards, values, independence, happiness and all knowledge, is to enter degrees of gradual self-sacrifice that could be thought of as 'self-loss'. At the extreme I strongly suggest that the NZ killer who sacrificed others' lives to his notions of *a cause* (in his head, a lesser value in favor of a greater one, therefore, a gain - he might justify) is both self-sacrificial and sacrificial, the ultimate altruist. Even the most irrational person cannot escape his most basic knowledge of what basic humanity and its basic value is, and by discarding their humanity and his own, he's "negated" himself from human being to beneath an animal (which, pre-conceptual and not therefore consciously 'selfish' nor self-sacrificial, can't select alternatives among its acts).

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2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:
On 3/19/2019 at 2:30 PM, Jon Letendre said:

Doesn't work

Interesting. The massacre video livestream copy  is hosted at D.Tube, but my Chrome browser (hi Google!) will not resolve the address; watch the top left.

dtubeChristchurchFail.gif

-- from Radio New Zealand:  

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21 hours ago, anthony said:

... *sacrificial* altruism laid down by Comte and accurate to him...

Tony,

Has Comte really had a deep influence on the world?

That's a premise worth checking if he's the reference for the philosophy that is supposed to be destroying the world.

I'm not saying Comte's form of altruism is good or even ineffectual, it isn't. It's horrible. But if one is going to fight a giant monster, one better not present a bottom-feeding fish as the father of the monster. That would be a primary identification error.

Michael

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1 hour ago, jts said:

They must make it go away because it is a very bad production. Even the general public would easily see it is fake in all the ways I described and certainly more I missed.

They want practice making things like videos go away. They know what’s coming for them. This little thing — complicity of the media businesses they own in deceiving the public about the nature of all these mass shootings — it is the least of their concerns. Much more crushing revelations are coming and they need practice for it. They have no cards left to play, mass censorship is the most rational approach now.

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On 3/19/2019 at 5:46 PM, Jon Letendre said:

ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent: A full list of blocked websites can be found below: voat, 4chan, 8ch, liveleak, archive, Bitchute, zerohedge, kiwifarms

https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/isps-in-au-and-nz-start-censoring-the-internet-without-legal-precedent-a-full-list-of-blocked-websites-can-be-found-below-voat-4chan-8ch-liveleak-archive-bitchute-zerohedge-kiwifarms/

Jon,

Now they are banning "dangerous" books in NZ.

They sure know how to fight terrorism...

:evil: 

And the whole world is watching them do it.

Or maybe they don't like someone telling them to clean their room. I mean, they really really really don't like it. After all, that's one of the main things Jordan Peterson is known for.

:) 

Sometimes I think they should rename the country New Dorkland...

Michael

 

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NZ is disarming its own citizens. That's insane. The shooter was an Aussie. Will there be a cop in every, church, store, and house in New Zealand? If I were a Kiwi I would fight this and lie before I would give up my means of self defense. 

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15 minutes ago, Peter said:

NZ is disarming its own citizens. That's insane. The shooter was an Aussie. Will there be a cop in every, church, store, and house in New Zealand? If I were a Kiwi I would fight this and lie before I would give up my means of self defense. 

Their safety requires that the populace, who will be finding out a lot of disturbing things about them very soon, be disarmed.

Not insane.

Very wise.

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18 hours ago, jts said:

 

17 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

They must make it go away because it is a very bad production. Even the general public would easily see it is fake in all the ways I described and certainly more I missed.

They want practice making things like videos go away. They know what’s coming for them. This little thing — complicity of the media businesses they own in deceiving the public about the nature of all these mass shootings — it is the least of their concerns. Much more crushing revelations are coming and they need practice for it. They have no cards left to play, mass censorship is the most rational approach now.

I have not commented on this fake video up to now for several reasons.

That doesn't mean I'm not on board.

The idea of taking a country not known for violence, but known for weak elitist-controlled politicians, and staging an attack featuring White Power to prompt a power grab elsewhere is totally plausible in my current state of mind. NZ is passing laws in reaction to the shooting that, magically, are relevant to the takeover. This is currently being used as a precedent to grab power over the Internet elsewhere. 

Everyday in every way, things are getting creepier and creepier.

The good news is that the Internet cannot be squelched by an elite ruling class without destroying the backbone and taking their own goodies down. It's almost like a built-in check and balance.

And, man, are people who are not elitists getting pissed...

Michael

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5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

 

I have not commented on this fake video up to now for several reasons.

That doesn't mean I'm not on board.

The idea of taking a country not known for violence, but known for weak elitist-controlled politicians, and staging an attack featuring White Power to prompt a power grab elsewhere is totally plausible in my current state of mind. NZ is passing laws in reaction to the shooting that, magically, are relevant to the takeover. This is currently being used as a precedent to grab power over the Internet elsewhere. 

Everyday in every way, things are getting creepier and creepier.

The good news is that the Internet cannot be squelched by an elite ruling class without destroying the backbone and taking their own goodies down. It's almost like a built-in check and balance.

And, man, are people who are not elitists getting pissed...

Michael

Then they will sacrifice their goodies. They have no choice — it's necks in nooses if they can't censor the revelations that are on the way. Five Eyes. Complicity in attempted coup against U.S./Trump. Puppet leaders owned by criminals. Same situation for UK, Canada and Australia — FVEY attempted coup complicity, death penalty.

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3 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Then they will sacrifice their goodies. They have no choice...

Jon,

I doubt that. If they compromise the Internet backbones, they disrupt the financial markets all over the world.

Too many rich and powerful people are involved to tolerate that. Many would simply repair the damage, even if they had to band together to do it.

I have no doubt the bad guys will try to impose state control over the Internet, though. But, as the tech giants are learning, that will be like putting a colander under a water faucet and trying to stop the leaking with their fingers. It just can't be done. That, in fact, is one of the main contributors to their current exposure and undoing.

Oddly enough, for as much as I have studied things like MKULTRA and so on, up to now, I knew very little about Five Eyes (although I knew about several of their programs like ECHELON, PRISM, etc., and many of the intelligence agencies involved). I just did the Wikepedia article on it as an introduction (the link goes to there). Very interesting... What could possibly go wrong with that much covert power concentrated into an elite multinational organization whose sole purpose is to cultivate and grow that power?

I wondered why NZ was chosen to start this Internet takeover... Now I know. NZ is a member of Five Eyes and the country is the smallest and most isolated of the five. 

Michael 

 

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Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? All of them violated their domestic anti—spying legislation the moment it started. And they did it for a foreign power. This means they are all subject to treason charges in their own countries. Their little gang still runs those countries, so they are safe for now.

 

They've been building bunkers in NZ for decades. Lots of billionaires have. Big money spent on fortified, multi-year provisioned hideouts. But first, control all information and disarm the nation.

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Assault rifles in open country are grossly inferior to a scoped .30 cal sighted in rifle just as a sidearm is grossly inferior to an assault rifle.

In Vietnam a sniper team aided by dropped illumination over the course of one night wiped out a 200 man NVA unit. Whenever an NVA exposed himself he was killed. This was an inexperienced unit. If they had charged en mass they would have lost only a few.

The big thing about assault rifles is all the ammo they waste. In Vietnam you could empty a 30 Rd mag with one trigger pull. These days it's three Rd bursts. 

--Brant

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On 3/21/2019 at 8:49 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

Has Comte really had a deep influence on the world?

That's a premise worth checking if he's the reference for the philosophy that is supposed to be destroying the world.

I'm not saying Comte's form of altruism is good or even ineffectual, it isn't. It's horrible. But if one is going to fight a giant monster, one better not present a bottom-feeding fish as the father of the monster. That would be a primary identification error.

Michael

I agree it is odd that few people have heard of him, outside of scholars. I'd say Comte observed and approved of the sacrifice sickness always visible in society, and uplifted the concept (and named it). An idea precedes, outlives, and is larger than the thinker. Like philosophers do, he had spin-off influence on others e.g. on Marx (!) and Mill and Spencer. Robert Campbell has a very good essay in OL somewhere, on Comte and altruism, wrt Rand's take on them. He confirms she got it precisely right.

Wiki:

Influenced by the utopian socialist Henri Saint-Simon,[4] Comte developed the positive philosophy in an attempt to remedy the social malaise of the French Revolution, calling for a new social doctrine based on the sciences. Comte was a major influence on 19th-century thought, influencing the work of social thinkers such as Karl Marx, John Stuart Mill, and George Eliot.[6] His concept of sociologie and social evolutionism set the tone for early social theorists andanthropologists such as Harriet Martineau and Herbert Spencer, evolving into modern academic sociology presented byÉmile Durkheim as practical and objective social research.

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On 3/22/2019 at 6:19 AM, Peter said:

NZ is disarming its own citizens. That's insane. The shooter was an Aussie. Will there be a cop in every, church, store, and house in New Zealand? If I were a Kiwi I would fight this and lie before I would give up my means of self defense. 

Peter, My lasting impressions of New Zealanders I've known and been told about (for such a small population, they got around - in the 70's they and Australians were renowned as go-everywhere travellers) has been their blunt, direct honesty, and of a sort of 'sense of life' individualism and goodwill to all (like most of your countrymen). They exhibited, in effect - no one is a threat to me and to our happy, independent way of life, and we pose none to others. Each person's character and competence are what counts. But even there, changes have come, the country has been infected by the same malaise as everywhere - therefore, I'm concerned NZ is going to be a soft target for the new Social Justice sacrificers among them, who will manipulate the absolute disconnect between benevolence and 'forced love'. Isn't this exactly what Leftist altruists have been doing, take advantage of men's virtues and innocence for their purpose, the physical and moral domination over others, shutting down opposing voices?   

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Anthony wrote: Isn't this exactly what Leftist altruists have been doing, take advantage of men's virtues and innocence for their purpose, the physical and moral domination over others, shutting down opposing voices? end quote   

Oh, I know. Benevolence morphs into altruism. A love of the earth becomes ”the planet must be saved,” so we must regulate ourselves to become less prosperous. And from my remembrance of youth, muscle cars become something resembling golf carts. Boo to the solar, expensive, and electrically powered nut case vehicles, though I willing to listen to Elon. New Zealanders are OK and I like their Lord of the Rings mountain range. I hope they don’t disarm their citizenry but it is up to them. Do they have the National Rifle Association down there, and down under? I hope so, and a free press. I do enjoy looking at other countries online newspapers, even those of small island nations.       

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On 3/24/2019 at 12:35 AM, Peter said:

   

 

Oh, I know. Benevolence morphs into altruism.     

 

Yup, the necessary forerunner of mixed economy capitalism morphing into socialism.

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