Incels

[caroljane]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William,

(sigh)

Incels are not the scourge of the earth.

One idiot does not make an army.

Hey! I have an idea! Why don't we make a new law restricting individuals, corporations and the communication industry in general to prohibit Incels from oppressing the undertrodden?

Let's save the world!

 Michael

To some people, women of whom a few happen to be dead, Incels proved to be scourges of their earth , and the Incels  hatred of women the only reason for their death.  

The Polytechnique killer may have been also canonized by these intellectually prosperous types, if their collective memory extended beyond their own appallingly self-limiting lives.

[caroljane]

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William,

(sigh)

Incels are not the scourge of the earth.

One idiot does not make an army.

Hey! I have an idea! Why don't we make a new law restricting individuals, corporations and the communication industry in general to prohibit Incels from oppressing the undertrodden?

Let's save the world!

Michael

Second thought, in fact incels and their umbrella ideology, misogyny, have been and remain a scourge of the earth. Half of the he earth's human population should not be hated and hunted by by idiot armies from the other half. 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, caroljane said:

To some people, women of whom a few happen to be dead, Incels proved to be scourges of their earth , and the Incels  hatred of women the only reason for their death.  

Carol,

I don't wish to make light of those few, nor of the people who feel terrified by knowing about those few.

I do notice that nuclear bombs destroy a lot more human life than a few idiots.

And, I also notice a hell of a lot of people more interested in talking about a porn star than talking about how good life gets when a serious nuclear threat gets neutralized by a President who, to them, is a blockhead and a buffoon. It's not that they don't see the nuclear threat getting neutralized. It's that those few Incels and their victims are so much more important according to the story in the heads that they brush off the aversion of potential nuclear disaster as not worth thinking about and, even, belittling the effort because it was engineered by a person they don't approve of.

I think both are bad, but I would not support turning society upside down because of a few boneheaded Incels who go berzerk. (I would want to figure out how to impede them, though.) I would turn society upside down over nuclear bombs in the hands of a madman.

I would turn society upside down for that so much, I would work diligently to elect a man capable of doing it. In fact, I did.

 

People's souls are reflected by what they focus on.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 minute ago, caroljane said:

Second thought, in fact incels and their umbrella ideology, misogyny, have been and remain a scourge of the earth. Half of the he earth's human population should not be hated and hunted by by idiot armies from the other half. 

Carol,

Bullshit.

All men are not Incels. 

You used to use your mind better than that.

Michael

[caroljane]

22 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Carol,

Bullshit.

All men are not Incels. 

You used to use your mind better than that.

Michael

If my post left the impression that I thought all men were incels, then I did not write it well enough. The "idiot armies from the other half" I should have clarified as  minority , splinter ideological offshoots.

I have written enough here for you to know my views on gender relations. For those who do not wish to slog through my severall million posts, I am anti-misogyny, pro-men, and undecided on Procrastination: good or bad?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

2 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Today the left is reduced to projection, historical revision, lies, distraction, stoking of race, class, and  identity-based hate.

Jon,

I saw a person on TV recently (if I can remember who, I will tell you, but I recall he was high level government) said the main trigger issues we see today is practically torn out of a 1974 book-long manifesto by the Weather Underground called Prairie Fire: The Politics of Revolutionary Anti-Imperialism. You can read the Wikipedia entry on that manifesto here.

Here's a little story for you that I once heard and it makes a great deal of sense to me.

Back during the days of the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society, who were initially mentored by Russian communists left over from Cold War infiltration), they split into a normal bureaucracy and a violent faction (Weather Underground). After the Weather Underground perpetrated its violence and was crushed by the FBI, the entire SDS movement petered out into cultural oblivion (going back to normal life or going into the woo-woo stuff that spawned the New Age movement--peace and love and chill out) except for a group of hardliners.

These hardliners really did want to change the world. So they decided on a different plan: go back to college, get their degrees, penetrate the educational system, indoctrinate a generation of American children, and when the time was right after they grew up, make a move to get power. The indoctrinated folks would support them.

They actually carried out this plan. Once they got their degrees, they applied to colleges and universities. Once accepted, they attended faculty meetings. Normal college professors at the time were ivory tower intellectuals who were not politically motivated and who found faculty meetings a big pain in the ass. Suddenly, these new leftie professors were making impassioned speeches at these meetings, pounding on the table and so on, dragging the meetings on interminably--over what? Over new hires, of course. They only wanted new lefties on staff. The older professors, not sensing any problem other than getting the damn meeting over, said, OK. If it means that much to you, we'll take so-and-so. This happened over and over and the number of leftie professors grew and grew. Thus the left eventually took over the colleges (which is why higher education is in such a mess today).

They even made room for Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn after their trouble with the FBI was resolved. These were two of the authors of Prairie Fire and members of the Weather Underground. They went into education, of course, both at the universities and in administrative positions and had an huge impact on the education system from the inside.

These two were also a foundational part of the backroom folks in Chicago who groomed and launched one Barack Obama into the presidency. With him came the left-wing jargon and left-wing ideas and so on that we see everyday in the culture.

There's a lot more to this story, of course, but this throughline is a main sequence of events and patterns (among others) of how we got to where we are today.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

4 minutes ago, caroljane said:

For those who do not wish to slog through my severall million posts, I am anti-misogyny, pro-men, and undecided on Procrastination: good or bad?

Carol,

I am the same, except I heartily embrace procrastination.

It's soooooooo much more than a necessary evil.

And I mean that in a good sense.

Michael

[anthony]

Huh now it's "incel". Can't keep up with the labels. Let me get it right - a bunch of men who can't find sex partners? Are they deprived victims of a huge female conspiracy? The tribes keep coming (for you to sink down to, or/and superficially slot others into and target). No need to be repeated here, that there's no end to the spin-offs of collectivism, once began, apparently the one 'group' keeps creating the next and go to social war. So the hard Left brings about the alt-Right (and in reverse, I guess). Now, the strident anti-male faction 'causes' the anti-female one.

Any mental contortion will do but to admit to the individualism concept - it's almost a joke. Not to forget, altruism-collectivism is the Left's raison d'etre.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

6 hours ago, anthony said:

Huh now it's "incel".

Tony,

I had to look this up myself.

I had never heard of this label before. I used it here because the press is going apeshit with it and it was used as the title of the thread.

I find it a silly label, but those who want to feel superior to what we used to call "clueless about women" invent this stuff and bash away. It helps them identify a new target to hate in order to make sense of something they don't know how to deal with.

The irony is the people who use this kind of terminology claim to be anti-bigots, but slapping a label on a small group of losers or people with problems and using it to refer to a wider group is the first step in the foundation of bigotry. This is standard operating procedure among the left. The right does this all the time, too, though.

I'm not referring to terms like "snowflake" (which is kinda cute  ) or "social justice warrior" since the characteristics to which they refer are so widespread in individuals on college campuses. The breadth of what the relatively new label refers to fits the size in reality and the emotional load refers to melodramatic behavior based on specific ideas. 

I mean terms like "cuck" or even older ones like "welfare queen." These take characteristics of a tiny number of individuals (men who accept other men sleeping with their wives or women becoming financially well off from welfare scams, respectively) and applies the derogatory part to a wide collective.

"Incel," from what I have seen, fits this format perfectly. We are watching the birth of a bigoted term trying to be jacked up into a meme to make it popular.

6 hours ago, anthony said:

... it's almost a joke...

Not almost...

Michael

[william.scherk]

"All men are not 'incels' ... so stop talking about it, please."

18 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

All men are not Incels. 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by william.scherk
Added Google search results for "what is an incel?" Added NPR interview.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here's a Heavy article on what they call an "Incel movement," which, in my view, is not a movement at all.

What Is the Incel Movement? 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

This article is a perfect example of the following:

47 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

We are watching the birth of a bigoted term trying to be jacked up into a meme to make it popular.

Heavy is doing the propaganda heavy lifting here. (This is one of the times Heavy is doing dark side work.) It even provides a backstory for the so-called movement going back to some obscure Canadian lady called Alana in 1993. 

My favorite part is Heavy saying an "Incel activist" (incredibly, another lady and not a man, this time Rebecca Freeman) wants Incel to be considered as a gender.

btw - Here is a direct quote from Freeman from the Heavy article (which is quoting from Quora). She says Incel is:

Quote

... not a movement; we have never protested or made any request for rights — or anything like that.

Incel as a movement is a totally engineered propaganda thing. But like all propaganda, there has to be some element of truth for it to fly. For instance, anti-Semites like to talk about Jews with big noses. And many Jews actually do have big noses, but that does not make them a big-nose movement.  So the bigots use big noses as a further way to identify and isolate Jews as a group. 

In other words, truth-wise, there are a few (very few) individuals who sincerely formally adhere to the premises of what is now being called Incel. Like with big noses, people can look at these few people and see that they exist. But that is a far cry from a movement. Notice that these few are all the media have to point to (in addition to a few relatively unknown social media threads that got deleted on Facebook, Reddit, etc). But after the media gets going on this, they can point to the articles of each other.

In fact, I bet a lot of future press will come from this Heavy article in a perfect "trading up the chain" propaganda push and actually create the impression that this movement exists. (Trading up the chain means a relatively obscure article becomes a source for overworked journalists in other organizations, and their ensuing articles become the source for overworked journalists in more popular media outlets and so on up the chain until the label or idea becomes mainstream. This is totally engineered, though, not spontaneous, and is now being taught in many places as a marketing and propaganda technique. It's based on a book called Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator by Ryan Holiday.)

The fact that people are calling this Incel thing a movement is what happens when people become so divorced from reality and so enslaved by the story in their heads, they are easily manipulated by friendly propaganda into believing just about anything.

Michael

[william.scherk]

Quoting a topical post on Elliot Rodger, the murderer of six innocents

On 5/24/2014 at 11:00 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

One Sick Wretch

It's all over the news.

This sick wretch, Elliot Rodger, killed at least 6 people and injured 13 more (numbers as of this posting) in a killing spree in Santa Barbara. Here's just one article for reference:

'I will slaughter every single blonde s**t I see': lonely killer posted chilling video warning of 'retribution' because he was still a virgin at age 22

By ASSOCIATED PRESS and ALEX GREIG

24 May 2014

MailOnline

Why did he do this?

Because he could not get a girlfriend!!!!!

Literally.

That sounds trivial, but it's in his own words. He left a confession video on YouTube.

(Watch at your own risk. When you watch this knowing what he did, it gets really creepy.)

[Video deleted at original link. Mirrored video here]

This is a Black Swan event. There is no rational explanation and no way to fit this into anything that makes sense. The dude was just sick and evil qua sick and evil. He did this rampage because he wanted to and thought it was good to do that.

End of story.

That doesn't stop people from speculating, though. The comments all over the Internet are all over the place.

And for as much as I know this is because it is and that's all there is to the why, I also speculate...

I can't help it.

How the hell did this guy go from where he was to where he ended up, leaving a trail of dead and injured bodies in his wake?

On 5/25/2014 at 2:16 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

We can't undo what happened, nor can we participate in the pain of the victims and their families, but we can try to keep the truth about what happened alive enough so the false legends do not take.

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by william.scherk
Added a brief but important note from MSK in the original "Incel"-related thread ... Added video from Inside Edition

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

Instead of trying to attribute causality to an Incel movement, why not attribute it to the celebrity potential provided by the Internet and social media?

If there were neither, if the possibility of posthumous fame did not exist, if the possibility of making a video of beefs and taunts to upload to the Internet did not exist, I speculate this guy would be in his basement room masturbating until today.

Instead, people prefer to come up with this Incel movement garbage, probably to grow government and misdirect attention from real cancers in society caused by government.

Here's a question for you. Why doesn't an individual or other among people who play golf poorly go out and kill people? There are enough poor golfers on the Internet to make a movement in the same propaganda manner this Incel thing is being ginned up.

I have an answer. I think it's because the frustration of being rejected in love cuts deeper in the emotions than the frustration of not being able to play a sport well. But that's still not a movement.

btw - There are plenty of bad golfers who make videos and upload them to YouTube. The comedy value gives them their instant celebrity kick. Losers at love don't find it funny and they don't believe anyone will take them seriously, which is why I believe an individual here and there among the clueless about women goes berserk.

Also, there's this. Why aren't any female Incels mass killing folks? Aren't you being a misogynist by denying them equal status with men?    

A real movement of killers seeking fame is something like ISIS. The Incel movement as a hotbed of killer indoctrination is media propaganda.

Michael

[caroljane]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William,

Instead of trying to attribute causality to an Incel movement, why not attribute it to the celebrity potential provided by the Internet and social media?

If there were neither, if the possibility of posthumous fame did not exist, if the possibility of making a video of beefs and taunts to upload to the Internet did not exist, I speculate this guy would be in his basement room masturbating until today.

Instead, people prefer to come up with this Incel movement garbage, probably to grow government and misdirect attention from real cancers in society caused by government.

Here's a question for you. Why doesn't an individual or other among people who play golf poorly go out and kill people? There are enough poor golfers on the Internet to make a movement in the same propaganda manner this Incel thing is being ginned up.

I have an answer. I think it's because the frustration of being rejected in love cuts deeper in the emotions than the frustration of not being able to play a sport well. But that's still not a movement.

btw - There are plenty of bad golfers who make videos and upload them to YouTube. The comedy value gives them their instant celebrity kick. Losers at love don't find it funny and they don't believe anyone will take them seriously, which is why I believe an individual here and there among the clueless about women goes berserk.

Also, there's this. Why aren't any female Incels mass killing folks? Aren't you being a misogynist by denying them equal status with men?    

A real movement of killers seeking fame is something like ISIS. The Incel movement as a hotbed of killer indoctrination is media propaganda.

Michael

Why does causality have to br either one thing or another?  There are ultimate causes and proximate causes. There are contributory causes. There are ends, good and bad, and there are means which in themswelves are harmless until activated.

This is the "Guns don't kill people " argument  all over again, except you seem to be taking the other side this time. 

[william.scherk]

Context for Carol's question. Quote from and link to Fallacy Files: 'the excluded middle ... '

56 minutes ago, caroljane said:

Why does causality have to be either one thing or another? 

Edited April 29, 2018 by william.scherk
Added header ... h/t to Susan Haack

[caroljane]

Btw,  when I started this topic I just called it Incels because that is what these cesspool-dwellers call themselves. I don't really think of it as a movement or want to give their "ideas" any such legitimacy, however they do exist and apparently believe the things they say they believe. 

Women have been hated for quite a long time for various reasons (stand up, John Knox! a mighty blow has been struck against the Monstrous Regiment of Women in the Colonies!).

The Incel movement idea seems to be annoying so I'd be OK with changing the topic title to Misogyny 2018.

[anthony]

6 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Tony,

I had to look this up myself.

I had never heard of this label before. I used it here because the press is going apeshit with it and it was used as the title of the thread.

I find it a silly label, but those who want to feel superior to what we used to call "clueless about women" invent this stuff and bash away. It helps them identify a new target to hate in order to make sense of something they don't know how to deal with.

The irony is the people who use this kind of terminology claim to be anti-bigots, but slapping a label on a small group of losers or people with problems and using it to refer to a wider group is the first step in the foundation of bigotry. This is standard operating procedure among the left. The right does this all the time, too, though.

I'm not referring to terms like "snowflake" (which is kinda cute  ) or "social justice warrior" since the characteristics to which they refer are so widespread in individuals on college campuses. The breadth of what the relatively new label refers to fits the size in reality and the emotional load refers to melodramatic behavior based on specific ideas. 

I mean terms like "cuck" or even older ones like "welfare queen." These take characteristics of a tiny number of individuals (men who accept other men sleeping with their wives or women becoming financially well off from welfare scams, respectively) and applies the derogatory part to a wide collective.

"Incel," from what I have seen, fits this format perfectly. We are watching the birth of a bigoted term trying to be jacked up into a meme to make it popular.

Not almost...

Michael

Michael, In the pre--Internet days such non-entities like "incels" and their little minds and egos would have simply shriveled up and disappeared. Or found some unfortunate woman who'd marry them. What they and other activists believe they've found now is instant potency (by getting their 19,000 'likes'), so the feeling they are leading A Cause. Collective power to substitute individual power . As well as this downside of social media, I lay the blame on the cultural diminishment of self-responsibility enabled by, mainly, the secular Left. Not to make apologies for the religious and religions, but they have and do characterize a certain amount of self-reliance and personal responsibility, a rough individualism - if not comparable to the Objectivist "a volitional consciousness" and rational selfishness. Many of the social conflicts or attacks seen in latter years would not have happened - nor have been countenanced and excused, socially/psychologically - by Christians. I have joked to another atheist: You'll be sorry when they are gone...

Because I think generally the Westerners are living on a cultural/civilizational fund built up by many generations of (mostly) Christian. Indeed, a lot of harm done by many of them and their religion as well, but the aggregate is a net good. And since decades of the Left has blindly been drawing from that "fund" which they had no part in producing, while adding very little to individualist freedoms (and gone backward, ideologically) the account has been drying up. Presumptuousness, those arrogant assumptions we see made upon others, is an altruist feature, too.

[Wolf DeVoon]

On 4/25/2018 at 7:32 PM, Jon Letendre said:

From what I can see, you are vicious piece of shit. Go fuck yourself.

Heavens! -- a vial of nitro in sawdust. Ahem. I'd like to know what an "incel" is. Zank you.

While waiting to find out, this Drudge link caught my eye: the Tea Sips at UT think masculinity is a mental disorder.

(snicker) Let's ask Chris and Peachy what they think?

 

[william.scherk]

 

Tim Pool's 'Incel Revolution: Was an "Involuntary celibate" behind Toronto Attack? (Culture War Podcast)'

[Wolf DeVoon]

"involuntary celibate" ??  Who needs such a word?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

4 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

"involuntary celibate" ??  Who needs such a word?

Wolf,

Social engineers with hidden agendas. That's who.

New jargon terms, especially for new made-up villains to throw rocks at, are great for propaganda if one can get enough of the press on board. And it looks that that is exactly what is happening. 

This is not a conspiracy theory. It's the way the dark side works.

The popular term is "controlling the narrative," but that's just on the surface. There are some other parts that run deeper.

For example, there is another easily understood aspect that can be expressed in popular terms. It is called "divide and conquer." And the primary emotions they use for dividing and controlling the masses are fear, outrage and a strong sense of belonging. A brand new villain with an aura of lethal fits an "us against them" schema perfectly.

Another example in popular terms: "politics runs downstream from culture." Whoever controls the culture, especially the popular culture, controls the political will of the politicians. Look how much they are pounding this term in the mainstream when just yesterday, nobody ever heard of it.

I could go on and I could use the technical jargon of social engineers (the COBS people and others), but these observations should indicate sufficiently that the push to inject this word into the mainstream is not accidental, nor is it a spontaneous cultural occurrence. It is engineered on purpose by people who like to remain hidden. The motivation is power.

Michael

[caroljane]

10 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

"involuntary celibate" ??  Who needs such a word?

The celibates themselves, apparently , since that is what the name they chose to proclaim their victimhood on their pathetic websites.

It isn't even an honest description. Many of them could have sex with ordinary, not-hot females if they tried, but they only want the perfect 10s.  And of course, they could purchase it any day of the week at a reasonable price.  But their standards are too high for that.  "Sex free or die",  so to speak. 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, caroljane said:

The celibates themselves, apparently , since that is what the name they chose to proclaim their victimhood on their pathetic websites.

It isn't even an honest description. Many of them could have sex with ordinary, not-hot females if they tried...

Carol,

I agree that this is probably where the term originated.

It's not what made the term suddenly mainstream, though.

As to the losers themselves, maybe if they tried upping their game via Strauss or Mystery or something... It's not as if there isn't an entire seduction education industry all over the place...

Michael

 

[william.scherk]

Alex Minassian's Facebook post about the 'Incel Rebellion'
 

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

4 hours ago, caroljane said:

14 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

"involuntary celibate" ??  Who needs such a word?

The celibates themselves, apparently , since that is what the name they chose to proclaim their victimhood on their pathetic websites.

I agree that this is probably where the term originated.

It's not what made the term suddenly mainstream, though.

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by william.scherk

[Wolf DeVoon]

Men are celibate (?) involuntarily (?) because they're lame, or stupid, or fat? Rubbish. I know lots of ugly / stupid / fat men with nice women.

"Incel" hooey reminds me of a graphic that explains much...