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Ayn Rand And The End Of Love

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An interesting (for me) new term: "Eliminativism". Stanford Encyclopedia relates Hume and others (like Quine) to the concept: "Similarly, by denying that there is an ego or persisting subject of experience, Hume was arguably an eliminativist about the self. Reductive materialists can be viewed as eliminativists with respect to an immortal soul".

That false alternative, dualism versus reductive materialism lies at the heart of many philosophies, I believe, sometimes destroying metaphysics, and epistemologically bringing about and bearing upon all the related false dichotomies (analytic/synthetic, etc, etc.). In his praiseworthy efforts to overcome dualism - i.e., soul/body, mind/body, psychology/physicalism, etc. - Hume seems to me, simplistically, to have made the fatal mistake of severing the "soul" and keeping just the physical behind - or, eliminativism of consciousness. As consequence, he despatched the conceptual mind too.

However, not completely eliminating the "self", as his insistence on what can only be called his primacy of emotions, suggests. I surmise there had to be something other, for Hume, which replaces a conceptual mind, and stands in for his skepticism of mind and knowledge, so his "passions" or "sentiments" take reason's place - as an immediate, intrinsicist, 'revealed' means of knowledge, judgment and morality. (Scratch a radical skeptic and, self-contradictedly, some other form of mysticism becomes apparent).

(All of which underscores the glaring contrast between Hume's "reason" and Objectivist reason. Contra Hume, reason begins at the early stage with the senses and percepts, to integration and evaluation. If true, it 'stands to reason' and common sense that before seeing, (hearing, etc,) perceiving, integrating - ie. identifying what some thing *is* - no good/bad judgment about a thing can possibly be made, and a corresponding, instantaneous emotion can't be felt. What might have misled most philosophers is the rapidity with which the identification process occurs. Conclusive proof of the impossibility of placing emotions over reason or prior to reason, I think. But people will try).  

 

 

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 If one perceives someone one knows, or doesn't know, suffer a great loss - or achieve a good goal - or have a minor social embarrassment, how does one know it and perhaps, sympathize and share their experience? By seeing their outward emotion? (Seldom are unknown persons this visible) . By projecting one's personal and subjective take on their situation upon them? (If that happened to me...). By identifying and understanding their situation wrt objective values, and deducing how they could be feeling? It may be any or all three, but one is most constant and objective. I think you relate directly to the person's value-lost or value-gained, itself.

When it's said often that "our emotions are what show us to be human" - or they "bond our common humanity" - there is a figment of truth under that, though it goes unnoticed. But an emotion/passion is only one's internal experience of, or (unreliably)others' external display of-- what it represents -- individual values, therefore, an individual's reasoning. If people were to be accurate and true, they'd instead say our *values and reason* (that back the emotion) are what identify us as rational and human, and bond our human experience. Unsurprisingly, everyone selects the louder, or superficial, or most evident, more intense, painful or joyful, and brief, indicators of values, the emotional system -  but which, after all, only gives us automated signals about reality from the efforts of our value-judgments. I consider emotions one's loyal watchman (identical to and an extension of one's physical 'bodyguard', the physiological nervous system which warns one of pain, disease or discomfort - and providing pleasure) and in itself, dumb. Only musing.

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Hello OL; I'm reading A.S. (as I should have done forty years ago; hey I finally found a round-to-it.) and have a question about what Rand intended the reader to infer about Dagny's mental state depicted in chapter 4 section 1 where Dagny is worn out from work and in her apartment listening to Richard Halley concerto no.4 and becomes disturbed by reading a newspaper story regarding Francisco D'Aconia visiting New York.  Rand ended the scene with a metaphor "The great cords of Halley's music went on, filling the room, piercing the glass of the windows, streaming out over the city,. She was hearing the music. It was her quest, her cry."  Halley's music wasn't described earlier in the story other than indicating it was a catchy tune whistled by the brakeman on a train or that some opera fans really hated it but 19 years later a different lot loved it, but Rand used this metaphor to illustrate Dagny's mental state upon learning of her past boyfriend being back in town, but I don't get it because Rand didn't describe Halley's musical style and how that style related to the "Who is John Galt?" theme of don't ask useless questions.  So what's up with this scene?  

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Edited by Robert_Bumbalough
Bad composition

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Robert,

Welcome to OL.

If you read other works by Rand on music, when she uses descriptions like she used for Halley's music in AS, she was talking mostly about Russian romantics like Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. Music-wise, long tonal heroic-sounding melodies with nervous (in the good sense) and ever-changing elaborate accompaniment is the style I think she imagined. They really butchered this in the AS movies.

In Rand's artistic conception (see The Romantic Manifesto), she tried to portray a perfect man--a model so to speak. Others could then see what such a man would look like and act like (limited by her selectivity as an artist, of course). The purpose of this portrayal is supposed to give people emotional and spiritual fuel (i.e., sense of life fuel to use her jargon) for their own real-life struggles since, through such art, they can see their future visions in concrete forms in the present. Or something really similar. Thus they would know and feel their visions are achievable. And this would give them reassurance, especially when life drags them down.

(Art actually works like this sometimes, but this is too long a subject to get into for this post.)

Rand held that music had a direct channel to the emotions, so, using this proposition as foundation, music such as Halley's is about the emotions people feel if and when they see their future vision realized. That, and maybe a longing for their vision to become real.

Frankly, I don't understand your comment about the pity party. From my reading of AS, self-pity is not only the last emotion Dagny would ever feel, it's not even within her emotional makeup. It's not that she would fight it. It's that it's just not there. Pain and exhaustion are there at times. Longing is there. Nerves frayed to the breaking point are there, like when she had a cathartic cry after she confessed her affair with Rearden on the radio. But self-pity? Nah... :) 

Michael

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3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Robert,

Welcome to OL.

If you read other works by Rand on music, when she uses descriptions like she used for Halley's music in AS, she was talking mostly about Russian romantics like Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. Music-wise, long tonal heroic-sounding melodies with nervous (in the good sense) and ever-changing elaborate accompaniment is the style I think she imagined. They really butchered this in the AS movies.

In Rand's artistic conception (see The Romantic Manifesto), she tried to portray a perfect man--a model so to speak. Others could then see what such a man would look like and act like (limited by her selectivity as an artist, of course). The purpose of this portrayal is supposed to give people emotional and spiritual fuel (i.e., sense of life fuel to use her jargon) for their own real-life struggles since, through such art, they can see their future visions in concrete forms in the present. Or something really similar. Thus they would know and feel their visions are achievable. And this would give them reassurance, especially when life drags them down.

(Art actually works like this sometimes, but this is too long a subject to get into for this post.)

Rand held that music had a direct channel to the emotions, so, using this proposition as foundation, music such as Halley's is about the emotions people feel if and when they see their future vision realized. That, and maybe a longing for their vision to become real.

Frankly, I don't understand your comment about the pity party. From my reading of AS, self-pity is not only the last emotion Dagny would ever feel, it's not even within her emotional makeup. It's not that she would fight it. It's that it's just not there. Pain and exhaustion are there at times. Longing is there. Nerves frayed to the breaking point are there, like when she had a cathartic cry after she confessed her affair with Rearden on the radio. But self-pity? Nah... :) 

Michael

Hi. Thanks for taking time to craft a thoughtful reply. (Please forgive my poor composition. I'll edit the text to remove the badly formed sentence.) I need to get a clue, so I'll move RM up to the top of the read list. :)

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21 hours ago, Robert_Bumbalough said:

When people “get lost in the music” and are so tuned in they are nearly head banging is that un-objective? Looking at a rock concert though a camera or snapshot makes the people enjoying the music look like freaks. “We will, we will, rock you.”

Damn but Rush’s “Tom Sawyer” is great. I like it better than anything by Queen.

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

When people “get lost in the music” and are so tuned in they are nearly head banging is that un-objective? Looking at a rock concert though a camera or snapshot makes the people enjoying the music look like freaks. “We will, we will, rock you.”

Damn but Rush’s “Tom Sawyer” is great. I like it better than anything by Queen.

Hello Peter. I'm fond of Rush and if I had to pick a favorite song, that'd be the one.

In Atlas Shrugged part 1 chapter 5 there's a long flash back sequence where Dagny recalls her childhood sometimes playmate Francisco D'Aconia including a scene setting up contrast and conflict between D'Aconia and James Taggert with the later blathering on about socialism. Francisco tells James to buzz off. This seems like a post event foreshadowing Francisco setting up the socialist government of Mexico and Taggert with the fake copper mine that was nationalized  in chapter 4. This was a nifty literary device, so I can forgive Rand's clumsy dialog she put into the characters. She's been raked over the coals since the first edition, but it's the ideas that matter. She decided to have Francisco blow off James' appeal to socialism because collectivism is so stupid and vulnerable on many fronts.

This passage seems to be about politics, but I think it's somewhat to do with a rational sort of love. The theme between Dagny and Francisco is performance of excellent quality work in serving customers so that they gladly trade their money value for the product (copper) or service (freight hauling) that Rand through her characters identifies as the source of good stuff needed to live the good life.  Thus in Rand Land, loving one's own self means working well to satisfy one's customers.

 

Thanks for the comment. :)

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Edited by Robert_Bumbalough
I forgot to finish my thought.

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I took that awkward phrasing to be because Francisco was Latino. Maybe he should have said, “Stifle it you moron. Gringo, you embarrass yourself.”

Speaking of the billionaire rich, I was watching “on demand” that J. Paul Getty movie that originally starred Kevin the molester, last night. It was riveting and I can’t imagine anyone better playing the elder J. Paul Getty than the guy who did. And speaking of Mexicans . . .    

Trump tweeted: "There is a Revolution going on in California. Soooo many Sanctuary areas want OUT of this ridiculous, crime infested & breeding concept. Jerry Brown is trying to back out of the National Guard at the Border, but the people of the State are not happy. Want Security & Safety NOW!" end quote

I don’t think our President was joking about our National Guard soldiers on the border or in sanctuary cities meeting and marrying those pretty senoritas . . .  like our GI’s did after WWII when they brought home German and Japanese “war brides” (I mean sheesh, when the Romans sacked a city they laid claim to all the babes) . . . And how many times have you been embarrassed for those “of whatever ethnicity or breed” who can’t solve the Wheel of Fortune puzzle when all but one of the consonants is showing? “The _attle of the _ulge.” Ahhh? Pat, is it “The Rattle of the judge?”

I won’t give the questions but here are a few of the answers from The New York Times Sunday Puzzle, “World Capitalism” by Rich Norris: Kiev incline. Accra bats. Beijing beauty. Prague noses. Taipei personality. Minsk stoles. Cairo proctors. Seoul food. Kabul stones.

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

I took that awkward phrasing to be because Francisco was Latino. Maybe he should have said, “Stifle it you moron. Gringo, you embarrass yourself.”

 

 

Speaking of the billionaire rich, I was watching “on demand” that J. Paul Getty movie that originally starred Kevin the molester, last night. It was riveting and I can’t imagine anyone better playing the elder J. Paul Getty than the guy who did. And speaking of Mexicans . . .    

 

 

Trump tweeted: "There is a Revolution going on in California. Soooo many Sanctuary areas want OUT of this ridiculous, crime infested & breeding concept. Jerry Brown is trying to back out of the National Guard at the Border, but the people of the State are not happy. Want Security & Safety NOW!" end quote

 

 

I don’t think our President was joking about our National Guard soldiers on the border or in sanctuary cities meeting and marrying those pretty senoritas . . .  like our GI’s did after WWII when they brought home German and Japanese “war brides” (I mean sheesh, when the Romans sacked a city they laid claim to all the babes) . . . And how many times have you been embarrassed for those “of whatever ethnicity or breed” who can’t solve the Wheel of Fortune puzzle when all but one of the consonants is showing? “The _attle of the _ulge.” Ahhh? Pat, is it “The Rattle of the judge?”

 

 

I won’t give the questions but here are a few of the answers from The New York Times Sunday Puzzle, “World Capitalism” by Rich Norris: Kiev incline. Accra bats. Beijing beauty. Prague noses. Taipei personality. Minsk stoles. Cairo proctors. Seoul food. Kabul stones.

 

 

Good post. I asked Mike to give ya a reputation point. Very nice. ?

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I thought I held the title for "worst Objectivist ever." Thanks.

I clicked on my icon, Sparks the cat, and was directed to my OL page which I hadn't really looked at in a while. You can see who recently visited.  Oh, and speaking of Sparks, someone here once asked if she was a "Turkish Van" which I had to look up. She does look like one so I asked the vet recently and she said Sparks might have some Turkish Van breeding. As a six week old kitten what was she doing in a ditch?
 

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Yeah, #metoo. I wish I could be an O-ist, but I'm too mushy. I'm stuck in everyman status, like Eddie Willers. I wouldn't mind working for a super hot hard charger capitalist engineering babe like Dagny Taggert; the money the money the money, sorry but no honey, but a Hank Rearden or John Galt I'll never be. I'm working on my sales skills. Hey, I'm all ears. Tell about what it is that'll make you come out of this deal smelling like a rose! .... Well what a coincy-dink, it just so happens my offering fits you to a Tee. So would your pals think you're cooler with the sporty macho man package or the super black velvet sexy lady deal? Oh good choice sir, lips-hips-and-fingertips make the world go round. Gotta love the second handers. Their psycho-epistemological motivation to live for other's approval makes them good customers. Plus as an added bonus, there's always brownie points to be earned by giving em opportunity to sacrifice themselves to some faceless feel good warm and fuzzy "charity" (cough-cough-wink-nudge). After which their non-explicit guilt will compel them to go for the $50 buck comish for bringing in another sucker.  They're the gift that keeps on giving.

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On 4/21/2018 at 5:01 PM, Robert_Bumbalough said:

Yeah, #metoo. I wish I could be an O-ist, but I'm too mushy. I'm stuck in everyman status, like Eddie Willers. I wouldn't mind working for a super hot hard charger capitalist engineering babe like Dagny Taggert; the money the money the money, sorry but no honey, but a Hank Rearden or John Galt I'll never be. I'm working on my sales skills. Hey, I'm all ears. Tell about what it is that'll make you come out of this deal smelling like a rose! .... Well what a coincy-dink, it just so happens my offering fits you to a Tee. So would your pals think you're cooler with the sporty macho man package or the super black velvet sexy lady deal? Oh good choice sir, lips-hips-and-fingertips make the world go round. Gotta love the second handers. Their psycho-epistemological motivation to live for other's approval makes them good customers. Plus as an added bonus, there's always brownie points to be earned by giving em opportunity to sacrifice themselves to some faceless feel good warm and fuzzy "charity" (cough-cough-wink-nudge). After which their non-explicit guilt will compel them to go for the $50 buck comish for bringing in another sucker.  They're the gift that keeps on giving.

I finished Part 1 of AS and think the author's depiction of Dagny's interviews with Ivy Sterns, one of those who may have leads on the identity and location of the static electricity motor (John Galt), may be contender for most overt presentation of anti-Marxist collectivism. See Part 1 Chapter 10 page 322 of 35th Anniversary edition or location 7817 of the Kindle version. Dagny listened to the muddle headed Marxist mystic drone on about from each according to ability to each according to his need while she was breaking from burning incense, praying and worshiping Hindu deity figurines; meanwhile Dagny's sub-conscious mind was protesting she should pay attention and remember this "pure evil".  Good stuff. I love that Dagny, at least in part, represents part of Ayn Rand's own character and personality.  Holy Shiva Batman, it'd be cool to date a babe who thinks like Rand did.   

 

AS audio book on GooGtube CD 1 part 93a of 94 whereon Dagny's interview with Ivy Sterns is read: (important ideas in the Give me Liberty or Give me Death vein).

 

 

Edited by Robert_Bumbalough
I think too much.
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On 4/17/2018 at 11:01 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Robert,

Welcome to OL.

If you read other works by Rand on music, when she uses descriptions like she used for Halley's music in AS, she was talking mostly about Russian romantics like Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. Music-wise, long tonal heroic-sounding melodies with nervous (in the good sense) and ever-changing elaborate accompaniment is the style I think she imagined. They really butchered this in the AS movies.

In Rand's artistic conception (see The Romantic Manifesto), she tried to portray a perfect man--a model so to speak. Others could then see what such a man would look like and act like (limited by her selectivity as an artist, of course). The purpose of this portrayal is supposed to give people emotional and spiritual fuel (i.e., sense of life fuel to use her jargon) for their own real-life struggles since, through such art, they can see their future visions in concrete forms in the present. Or something really similar. Thus they would know and feel their visions are achievable. And this would give them reassurance, especially when life drags them down.

(Art actually works like this sometimes, but this is too long a subject to get into for this post.)

Rand held that music had a direct channel to the emotions, so, using this proposition as foundation, music such as Halley's is about the emotions people feel if and when they see their future vision realized. That, and maybe a longing for their vision to become real.

Frankly, I don't understand your comment about the pity party. From my reading of AS, self-pity is not only the last emotion Dagny would ever feel, it's not even within her emotional makeup. It's not that she would fight it. It's that it's just not there. Pain and exhaustion are there at times. Longing is there. Nerves frayed to the breaking point are there, like when she had a cathartic cry after she confessed her affair with Rearden on the radio. But self-pity? Nah... :) 

Michael

Hi Mike. Nice day.  After finishing AS part 1 I watched the Atlas Shrugged Movie part 1. The movie is a pale bare outline of Ayn Rand's master piece although I thought the actors did a okay job. The editing and stage lighting are sub par, and some of the dialog is not found in the book, but it is entertaining. I wish John Aglialoro had chosen to use some method to emulate an all knowing narrator as Rand made herself in the novel. I've no clue how that could be done without resorting to a narrator describing the psychological states and conditions of the characters or presenting the characters thoughts as if the audience were clairvoyant mind readers.  How does a director and producer get the actors to exhibit the emotional and psychological states without seeming to be over acting? That would be hard. What do you think? 

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In Atlas Shrugged part 2 chapter 6 the gang of looters lead by Wesley Mouch and Fred Kinnan discuss the eight points of directive 10-289 that assert draconian control over all business activity and severely limit personal freedoms. Did Ayn Rand's description of those eight points adhere to  the edicts issued by the Leninist Bolshevik rulers after their revolution and civil war victory? Did she fabricate that part of the story or was she writing from memory of her personal experience?

 

Then later in chapter 7 the scene where Rearden is walking to his new apartment after moving out of his house and starting divorce proceedings for Lillian and meets Ragnar who give Rearden a gold bar and explains his mission to eliminate the ideal of Robin Hood from the minds of men gave me pause to think. Ragnar asks Rearden what he looks forward to and for what does he live. Yikes! Slackers like me with little to no purpose in life other than keeping on to merely be keeping on for the sake of keeping on are challenged to find a crusade  and a mission. Well off I go to do something productive. 

Edited by Robert_Bumbalough
Further thoughts.

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Notice the song writers.

Peter

Lyrics from the movie, “Rocky.”

Trying hard now
It's so hard now
Trying hard now

Gettin' strong now
Coming on, now
Gettin' strong now

Gonna fly now
Flyin' high now
Gonna fly, fly, fly

Songwriters: AYN ROBBINS, CAROL CONNORS, BILL CONTI

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"They're all aristocrats, that's true," said [Ellis] Wyatt, "because they know there's no such thing as a lousy job, only lousy men who don't care to do it." ~ 'Atlas Shrugged' Part 3 c.1 p.720

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To be an Objectivist does not depend upon adhering to the Striker's Oath, or does it? If one is not an Objectivist unless they adhere to the Striker's Oath, then no US citizen or legally domiciled person within the legal jurisdiction of the United States can be an Objectivist due to their enslavement via the Federal Reserve System making them and all US citizens and legally domiciled persons within the jurisdiction of the United States surety collateral or guarantors against the debt obligation of the US dollar relative to all such persons. Yikes! Time to bug out to a secret valley, otherwise one is merely helping moochers and looters destroy one's own self, if one wishes to live objectively. I hope this is wrong. Tell me I need gentle overnight relief and that I should be happy that the big box store is having their annual laxative jamboree.

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Hi there and good morning Mr Devoon.  

Good one. Yeah, okay. I'll make it more explicit in honor of Atlas Shrugged.

<Digression> (I finally finished part 2 and then viewed the AS part 2 video. It fails to capture the psychological development of the characters. Although the misplacing of Richard Halley's bug out with Galt was an attempt at flavoring a psycho-epistemological evolution by way of contrast and thus an effort avoiding the omniscient narrator trope.)  </Digression.>

 I was making a literary allusion to one of the themes used by Ayn Rand in her famous novel.  Your incredulity speaks to my motivation in asking for a diagnosis of constipation, but my hobby has no bearing.  Stop evading. Tell me the truth. Are we slaves because we use US Dollars? If so, to where can one escape?  Would that be avoidable if they stopped using USD and switched entirely to crypto?

Cheers :) 

 

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12 hours ago, Robert_Bumbalough said:

Stop evading. Tell me the truth. Are we slaves because we use US Dollars? If so, to where can one escape?

There are three or four existing Gulches that I know of, not counting current and future Seasteading projects or Laissez Faire City disbanded in 2002 after a seven-year global operation involving thousands of participants, real estate and consulate in Costa Rica, encrypted trading in Dubai in multiple currencies including a fractionally gold-backed "rand." As a personal preference I use gold and silver bullion. Comes in handy when traveling, for instance, less conspicuous than a wad of Benjamins. The paper dollars in circulation are a very tiny fraction of US money, which is measured in M1, M2, (M3 no longer reported) and L (total liquidity). Moreover, the world likes and trades US paper of a different sort, principally Treasurys, so-called Tier One capital for banks: 30 year long bond, 10 year, 2 year, and various repo swaps by the Federal Reserve Open Market Committee and the FRNY Plunge Protection Team that has a vault full of gold or tungsten ? in Manhattan. There are 12 so-called prime dealers that directly bid Treasury dutch auctions, which happen on a published schedule. The 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center was aimed at the biggest, Cantor Fitzgerald. America issues a lot of debt, and most of it is widely seen as "good collateral" to be traded, loaned and rehypothecated in a sort of ponzi pyramid involving the world's largest banks, brokerages, and hedge funds. The 2008-09 financial crisis concerned US agency debt. That's mortgage paper issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac guaranteed implicitly but vaguely by the Treasury and credit of the United States. The 50 states and roughly 85,000 municipalities, school districts, and special purpose entities like sewage and water issue bonds collectively known as muni's that are tax free, sold at a discount and pay a higher annual coupon (interest rate) because they're riskier than Treasurys. Some states and localities are better bets, pay a lower rate. S&P and others assess the risk. Treasurys are AAA.

Are you with me so far? -- paper money is almost invisibly small and no one in or out of government pays much attention to it, unless you write or deposit a check for more than $10,000, in which case you trip a DHS bank reporting requirement. It works its way up the food chain to an interagency task force called FINCEN. In Europe, it's called Egmont, a super-duper international regulator, sort of. My best guess is that Total Liquidity of all US "money" is roughly 500 trillion dollars, about two-thirds of the world's "cash" and "near cash."

As I said, I like gold and silver bullion and coins (Kangaroos, Maple Leafs, Eagles). Some people like the platinum metals group, or cargo contracts, casinos, oil wells, bordellos, drug trafficking, NYSE and NASD equity, mutual funds, life insurance policies, etc.

Benjamins and debit cards are handy at the grocery store, major credit cards for car rentals and airfares. Your mileage may vary.

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Orientation neurons and AI

On 1/21/2018 at 3:03 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

When we process events, as we are trying to group the different parts of our brain into a single thing (for lack of a better word), we have to put some pillars in place to be able to find our way around. (There are actually specific orientation neurons that are involved, but that's a long heavy trip.)

AI-orientationNeurons.png

Edited by william.scherk
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