anthony Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, moralist said: The value of a person's mental productivity can be measured by their ability to find a market for their output. One goes hand in hand with the other. Of what good is an intelligent idea without the common sense to implement it? This defines the difference between being educated in a University... and becoming enlightened in the real world. Greg Greg, Methinks success is a quality over a quantity--and only measured by the individual himself, who knows what his standard of success is. Success can't be isolated from happiness, and happiness isn't a necessary consequence of wealth. Believe it or not, wealth isn't the primary motivator for some people, and not many have the marketing skills; the two don't always go hand in hand. Saying which, I'm sure in a laissez-faire economy the better intellectual ideas will be more esteemed, so creating a demand. Not every Capitalist has to be a Capitalist-businessman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: One hell of an over-generalization. --Brant How can you live without money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Arkadi said: No life is failed "but [one's ill] thinking makes it so." If a man can't make a living, that is a failed life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 4 hours ago, anthony said: How much money? Where is the monetary dividing line between success and "a failed life"? If a man can't make enough money for food and housing, that is a failed life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 jts-- "If a man can't make a living, that is a failed life."--NO. Such a person would quite literally die. He would not have either failed or successful life. He would not have anything. For a simple reason that he would not be around any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 18 minutes ago, anthony said: Greg, Methinks success is a quality over a quantity--and only measured by the individual himself, who knows what his standard of success is. Success can't be isolated from happiness, and happiness isn't a necessary consequence of wealth. Believe it or not, wealth isn't the primary motivator for some people, and not many have the marketing skills; the two don't always go hand in hand. Saying which, I'm sure in a laissez-faire economy the better intellectual ideas will be more esteemed, so creating a demand. Not every Capitalist has to be a Capitalist-businessman. Money is a necessary but not sufficient requirement of a good life. Seek ye first not the kingdom of heaven but money. After you have achieved a comfortable amount of money, then you can do other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 For me, Capitalism is the triumph of the moral sovereignty of the individual. Which implies that nobody, except the person himself, has the moral right to judge whether his life was success or failure. Usurping such right is a trait of totalitarian mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, Arkadi said: For me, Capitalism is the triumph of the moral sovereignty of the individual. Which implies that nobody, except the person himself, has the moral right to judge whether his life was success or failure. Usurping such right is a trait of totalitarian mentality. Suppose the man is living at your expense, because he can't live except by charity.Then you would not judge his life to be a failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 JTS--No, I would not. I might consider my life, not his, to be a failure should I have to pay for his sustenance against my will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 5 hours ago, Arkadi said: But then, do not refer to the Bible and its values, Greg. For by your measures, its major hero, Jesus, was a failure. Jesus produced more than He consumed. He provided food for 5,000 people and made wine from water. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 Most slaves also produce more than they consume but they do not benefit from this. Neither did Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Arkadi said: Most slaves also produce more than they consume but they do not benefit from this. Neither did Jesus. Uh, how about do not benefit as much as they should? Uh, what slaves--present tense--are we talking about? Who are the owners? Kinda hard to say what did and did not benefit Jesus. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 Brant--Whatever Jesus was doing, his objective was stated by him explicitly: " “If you continue in My word.., you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” I.e., his goal was influencing others, not material production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 9 hours ago, Arkadi said: Brant--Whatever Jesus was doing, his objective was stated by him explicitly: " “If you continue in My word.., you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” I.e., his goal was influencing others, not material production. So we agree--Jesus was not a materialist, but he did benefit as a result of his labors. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 13 hours ago, Arkadi said: Most slaves also produce more than they consume but they do not benefit from this. Neither did Jesus. Since you mentioned it.... Jesus also freed slaves. In America today, anyone who is a slave only did it to themselves. By the way do you live in America? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 Brant--Yes. He benefited but his benefit was not (nor was intended by him to be) material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/12/2017 at 0:51 AM, Arkadi said: JTS--It's a failure in one particular respect; and it was, perhaps, due to his reading the Bible not attentively enough, as St. Paul advises to not marry. That's actually not the whole truth... "Now as to the matters of which you wrote me. It is well and by that I mean advantageous, expedient, profitable, and wholesome for a man not to touch a woman to cohabit with her, but to remain unmarried. But because of the temptation to impurity and to avoid immorality, let each man have his own wife and let each woman have her own husband." Are you a Christian, Arkadi? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/11/2017 at 1:54 PM, jts said: That may be a correct principle but where in the USA Constitution do you see that? Jerry, why do you keep continually confusing the government with America? Don't you know that a nation isn't the government? The size and nature of the US government today is a precise indicator of how many people are failing to govern themselves. It used to be small because more people were decent enough to govern themselves. More Indecent People = More Unconstitutional Government Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/12/2017 at 8:28 AM, anthony said: How much money? Where is the monetary dividing line between success and "a failed life"? The answer to your question is not scaleable, Tony. Producing more than you consume is the dividing line between success and failure in life. By producing more than they consume a person who knows how to live on little is still successfully solvent and financially independent, because they are working to provide for all of their own needs and wants. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/11/2017 at 9:34 AM, Peter said: The government insisted I work for them. They forced me to work for the little money they provided. They sent me to a foreign country to protect people I did not know (though I got to like them). But then they let me leave a couple of months earlier than the two year contract I had with them which was nice. I still think being drafted was wrong but I don’t look back in anger. I still think about the adventures I had while I was a soldier. Peter Hey, I got an early out from the Army, too! By remaining on duty in Vietnam for an extra couple of months. Experiences like that you just make the best of it so that you can come out of it a better person. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 Greg--Yes, I live in America. Yes, I am Christian but currently do not belong to any church. "In America today, anyone who is a slave only did it to themselves."--Are you ignorant of the genetics' impact on IQ? And of the influence of drugs consumed in childhood, when a person is not yet formed as a person and cannot resist the pressure of their social environment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/11/2017 at 0:44 AM, BaalChatzaf said: Sometimes people "don't make a good buck" for problems they have which they did not bring on themselves. How about high grade morons with a 70 IQ? People like that function at the lowest end of the labor spectrum if they are able to get jobs at all. And it has been established empirically that IQ cannot be raised after a certain age by any known means so it is not like these happy retards are not trying hard enough. Or low functioning autistic some of whom cannot talk well enough to hold down any job. I have a grand nephew Devon who stopped talking just before his 2 nd birthday and there was no outright disease or trauma that caused it. He was finally diagnosed as hard core low functioning autistic. Deven is a sweet cheerful kid. He is 12 o 13 now but he will never be able to function economically. He is not stupid. He has learned how to express himself using a special CGI app we generations pictures, illustrations and diagrams. But it looks like he will never talk. And then there are the poor kids with Tey-Sachs disease. Some of them live into their 20s and 30s. They will never be able to hold down a job. And they are not smart enough to be "immoral". At worst they are amoral. Among the mentally retarded you find people who are happy, cheerful and are glad to do any task you give them that is within their range. But their range is limited. Morally condemning these unfortunates is immoral (I think). That is like cursing the blind because they cannot see or the deaf because they cannot hear. I can just see Our Moralist Greg coming to the conclusion that these unfortunates "got what they deserved". Basic Axiom of existence on this planet ----- shit happens. Also non-shit happens. Bob... that's the mindf**k I've been talking about. You do to your kids exactly what your parents did to you... ... because you failed to learn how to solve your problems that got dumped onto you... so you pass them on to others. This is how unresolved personal garbage gets dumped onto the next generation... over and over and over. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/11/2017 at 6:24 AM, BaalChatzaf said: I, indirectly, worked for government until 1968. Bob... you worked for government contracted companies for all of your life. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 20 hours ago, Arkadi said: p.s. I have to admit, that, personally, I find Greg's criterion ("making more money than you spend") ego-pandering. I'm almost 62 and I never borrowed a single cent in my whole life, nor lived off any inheritance. It looks like I'm admitted to Greg's "good people"'s (a.k.a. American Capitalists) club. You are if you're not sucking off government benefits teat either. The only real criterion is producing more than you consume, not how much you produce. What kind of work do you do to support yourself? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadi Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 Greg--I work for an Ivy League University library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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