empty shelves in Venezuela

[jts]

I've been living in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada since 1979.  I never saw empty shelves in a food store except:

1. They were renovating.

2.  It was a small store and I cleaned them out of some fruits and veggies. But the next time I went to that same store, that shelf was replenished, always.

In a capitalist country, a store manager has a profit motive. An empty shelf is a shelf that is not making money.

 

The Nightmare Of Grocery Shopping In Venezuela

This is one of many web pages. Search < venezuela empty shelves > and you will find a whole shitload of web pages.

Shortages in Venezuela -- wiki

venezuela grocery shelves -- images  I doubt this would be possible in a capitalist or semi-capitalist country.

 

Everything King Midas touched turned into gold. Government has a power like that except with one difference. Everything government touches turns into shit.

 

[BaalChatzaf]

6 hours ago, jts said:

.

 

Everything King Midas touched turned into gold. Government has a power like that except with one difference. Everything government touches turns into shit.

 

Almost, but not quite.  The government stole enough money from taxpayers to fund private companies to build a vessel that carried men to the Moon.  That seemed to work, sort of.  Of course, since the politicians were in charge all that coming and going to the Moon  never amounted to much.

[jts]

5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Almost, but not quite.  The government stole enough money from taxpayers to fund private companies to build a vessel that carried men to the Moon.  That seemed to work, sort of.  Of course, since the politicians were in charge all that coming and going to the Moon  never amounted to much.

A proper scientific experiment requires at least 2 cases, a test case and a control case. Government did well, compared with what?

 

[BaalChatzaf]

2 hours ago, jts said:

A proper scientific experiment requires at least 2 cases, a test case and a control case. Government did well, compared with what?

 

The succeeded in their purpose.  To put a man on the Moon before the Russians did.  To do that they had to develop a complicated program of rocket development,  control to render the vessel man-rated.  It was a difficult project to complete in the technological sense  and they did it.  The government had to steal 24 billion 1960 dollars from the public  but they managed to set up the contracts and the management of the project well enough to succeed. 

No single private company or even a consortium of private companies could have done the job in the ten years time frame that was proposed.  Even now the private companies have just barely begun to design, construct and deploy man rated vehicles capable of reaching orbit.  Some thing the government can do and some they can't.  

The last project prior to Apollo  of that magnitude was the construction of the Panama Canal which was partially government funded and required the U.S. government of  militarily threaten Venezuela  to grant Panama its independence.  The Canal was complete on time, under budget.  In addition to building the canal,  a technological feat that was not matched for 50 years,  Army medical teams had to figure out how to control Yellow Fever which was wrecking the labor corp necessary to build the canal.  The results were beneficial  technically,  economically and medically.   It could not have been done without government backing or assistance.

[Brant Gaede]

Begs the question of whether it should have been built at all.

Things are as they are not what they could have/would have been differently.

Governments in the last century murdered up to 200 million people. "No single private comp[any or even a consortium of . . . ."

--Brant

let's hear it for the govment!

[BaalChatzaf]

2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Begs the question of whether it should have been built at all.

Things are as they are not what they could have/would have been differently.

Governments in the last century murdered up to 200 million people. "No single private comp[any or even a consortium of . . . ."

--Brant

let's hear it for the govment!

One could argue that the Apollo Rocket was not really necessary  but a canal through central America was.  The alternative was sailing around cape horn which is a very long and very dangerous  journey.  A canal through Panama or Nicuragua was absolutely essential for shipping freight from the east cost to the west coat (or vica vers)  at a reasonable cost.  Going around the Horn or the Cape of Good Hope would have quintupled the cost per ton for shipping. 

[Brant Gaede]

23 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

One could argue that the Apollo Rocket was not really necessary  but a canal through central America was.  The alternative was sailing around cape horn which is a very long and very dangerous  journey.  A canal through Panama or Nicuragua was absolutely essential for shipping freight from the east cost to the west coat (or vica vers)  at a reasonable cost.  Going around the Horn or the Cape of Good Hope would have quintupled the cost per ton for shipping. 

So what?

The true justification for the Panama Canal was national defense.

Your best economic case is the Erie Canal. Explicate on it if you want.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I actually dodged a bullet here.

Back in Brazil when I was messing with government bonds (around the turn of the century), I got involved with some projects involving the Banco Central de Venezuela. I even knew some Generales, etc., and the money was going to be thick.

(On a funny note, I mentioned this to Barbara Branden after I came up here to the US, playing for effect like I sometimes do. When she heard the name Hugo Chavez, she had a shit fit. But we worked it out.)

Fortunately for me, those deals fell apart. I was coasting along on them, anyway, not giving very much input, because I didn't feel good about them. And, truth be told, if I were sitting pretty right now with a big fat bank account and knowing that my money came from all those people throughout the entire country who can't eat because there are no groceries in stores, I would be on such a guilt trip, I would probably go back to using drugs. Hell, I would be dead by now.

Instead, I have a good life with a loving family.

And one of the perks is that I get to piss people off online.

 

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

It's not the money--it's the top-down destruction of that economy. Like John Galt told Mr. Thompson: "What would I spend it on?" (Quote approximate.)

--Brant

[jts]

Under capitalism, an empty shelf is a shelf that is not making money.

 

[Jon Letendre]

Coup.

White House Tweet

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1088136422320689152

President @realDonaldTrump
has officially recognized the President of the Venezuelan National Assembly, Juan Guaido, as the Interim President of Venezuela.

11:08 AM · Jan 23, 2019

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jon,

I have no doubt Bolsonaro from Brazil had a hand in this. He wants socialism out of South America, and Latin America for that matter.

Here's a tweet from Styxhexenhammer666 a few minutes ago:

Quote

Liberals are extra salty today because not only did they lose with Covington but they might see a socialist regime collapse in the next few days- one Salon called the model of "real socialism" as recently as 2013. Also Trump might troll them with SOTU.

He included the following 2013 article from Salon by David Sirota.

Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle

Michael

[Jonathan]

15 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Jon,

I have no doubt Bolsonaro from Brazil had a hand in this. He wants socialism out of South America, and Latin America for that matter.

Here's a tweet from Styxhexenhammer666 a few minutes ago:

He included the following 2013 article from Salon by David Sirota.

Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle

Michael

Well, it WAS real socialism, but then it stopped being real at some point. It's actually capitalism's fault that it failed. So, we should try socialism again, because it'll work this time.

J

[Darrell Hougen]

As a friend put it, "They were eating the seed corn."

Consuming the resources that should have been invested makes a person feel rich until next year ... when there is no harvest.

Darrell

 

[Jonathan]

29 minutes ago, Darrell Hougen said:

As a friend put it, "They were eating the seed corn."

Consuming the resources that should have been invested makes a person feel rich until next year ... when there is no harvest.

Darrell

 

But let's keep trying it until it works. After all, it's the moral thing to do. If we care enough, and have good intentions, socialism will work the next time.

J

 

[Darrell Hougen]

9 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

But let's keep trying it until it works. After all, it's the moral thing to do. If we care enough, and have good intentions, socialism will work the next time.

J

 

I think people who want socialism generally have no historical perspective. The Plymouth Colony was a (failed and abandoned) experiment in socialism. The Jamestown colony was another (failed and abandoned) experiment in socialism. The entire state of Georgia was a (failed and abandoned) experiment in socialism. Numerous other communities in the United States and Europe have tried socialism since times predating the Soviet Union by hundreds of years. It's been tried throughout the world in numerous countries and it has always failed. And yet ... And yet ... next time we'll get it right.

How many hundreds of years do we have to wait for people to completely abandon the idea of socialism?

Darrell

[Jonathan]

14 hours ago, Darrell Hougen said:

I think people who want socialism generally have no historical perspective. The Plymouth Colony was a (failed and abandoned) experiment in socialism. The Jamestown colony was another (failed and abandoned) experiment in socialism. The entire state of Georgia was a (failed and abandoned) experiment in socialism. Numerous other communities in the United States and Europe have tried socialism since times predating the Soviet Union by hundreds of years. It's been tried throughout the world in numerous countries and it has always failed. And yet ... And yet ... next time we'll get it right.

How many hundreds of years do we have to wait for people to completely abandon the idea of socialism?

Darrell

Let's try it again. It'll have to work this time. I just know it will.

J

[anthony]

An emaciated lion in a zoo in the Venezuelan state of Zulia. Image by Christian Veron on Twitter.

[Peter]

1 hour ago, anthony said:

An emaciated lion in a zoo in the Venezuelan state of Zulia. Image by Christian Veron on Twitter.

I just had an old tomcat die of feline aids and he looked like that lion. It's not contagious in humans but I carefully buried him and let the cage he was dying in with the door open, stay outside on a picnic table to air out. So long Tigger, Pooh's friend. He must have been 12 or 15 years old if I am not miscounting. I am guessing a raccoon tried to dig him up but quit digging before it got to his body. Ugh. I raked the dirt back onto him.  Perhaps the lion could be used to make Venezuelan socialist gumbo.    

[9thdoctor]

Chomsky says stay out:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/01/24/open-letter-united-states-stop-interfering-venezuelas-internal-politics

There are a lot of Venezuelan refugees where I live.  A real bad situation.  But Noam must know what's best, having had the genius to come up with this line:

[Brant Gaede]

 

46 minutes ago, 9thdoctor said:

Chomsky says stay out:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/01/24/open-letter-united-states-stop-interfering-venezuelas-internal-politics

There are a lot of Venezuelan refugees where I live.  A real bad situation.  But Noam must know what's best, having had the genius to come up with this line:

Doesn't he know Maduro is a Nazi?

--Brant

tell him, please, pretty pls

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I am against all this effort against Maduro.

I see a war for profit coming and I don't like it. And, believe me, I don't like Maduro at all.

Let South America deal with that issue. Venezuela's neighbors like Brazil are the ones getting the bulk of the refugees. The neighbors are not happy and they will act.

But that won't happen. The US will do it for them. There's all the friggin' oil and the elitist powers that be in the US want their cut...

Notice that the military-industrial complex is getting awfully hungry with President Trump constantly shutting down their endless war cash cows...

But they still have enough power to do an Iraq number or a Libya number on Venezuela if they can sell it in the right way to President Trump. (After he sees the mess, I believe he will clean it up, but first there will be the mess and all them thar profits for the bad guys.)

And the worst part of it is... wait for it... here it comes...

After they topple Maduro, the Venezuelans will put another socialist in power. One in a Hugo Chavez mold, but more friendly to the US.

Sad, but true. Just look at Venezuelan history (but not through the lens of the fake news media).

For the elitists, the endless war for profit assholes, this would be the best of all worlds. Why? Because the new guy will be a disaster and make a holy mess of it. That situation will scream the need for gobs of their "humanitarian aid" military goodies, all sold with the collusion of the fake news media. Nobody will talk much about the bombs on civilians and stuff like that, I mean, who cares about details?...

To hell with the elitists.

Bah...

Michael

[Peter]

The web was wondering today, "What will the Venezuelan military do?" I can't see the U.S. Military intervening.  

[Peter]

From the New York Times Jan. 29, 2019. WASHINGTON — The State Department said Tuesday that it had given Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó the right to control assets and property in the United States bank accounts of the government of Venezuela.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo gave the certification to Mr. Guaidó last Friday, two days after Mr. Guaidó declared himself interim president, but the United States government had kept it secret until now. The move is part of a campaign by President Trump and his top foreign policy officials to oust President Nicolás Maduro, an authoritarian leader who is serving a second six-year term after elections last year that many have denounced as illegitimate. “This certification will help Venezuela’s legitimate government safeguard those assets for the benefit of the Venezuelan people,” said Robert Palladino, a State Department spokesman. The department specifically listed accounts of the government of Venezuela or Central Bank of Venezuela that are in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, but the turnover of control applies to similar accounts in any United States insured bank.

Tarek William Saab, Venezuela’s chief prosecutor, announced on Tuesday that his office had started a formal investigation of Mr. Guaidó for his anti-government activities and the “violent acts” of Jan. 23, when protesters answered a call by Mr. Guaidó to take to the streets. Mr. Saab is seeking to stop Mr. Guaidó from leaving the country, and has ordered a freeze of Mr. Guaidó’s assets, but has not ordered his arrest. “These acts are undermining the peace of the nation,” said Mr. Saab of Mr. Guaidó’s effort to establish a transitional government.

[9thdoctor]

On 1/28/2019 at 10:05 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I am against all this effort against Maduro.

I see a war for profit coming and I don't like it. And, believe me, I don't like Maduro at all.

Let South America deal with that issue. Venezuela's neighbors like Brazil are the ones getting the bulk of the refugees. The neighbors are not happy and they will act.

But that won't happen. The US will do it for them. There's all the friggin' oil and the elitist powers that be in the US want their cut...

Hopefully all it will take is waving our paper tiger at them.  The way it's going now, they're trying to keep it "legal", on the grounds that the last election was illegitimate, leaving the office of President vacant.