Fake News

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

10 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

MSK let's these things take care of themselves. It's not working this time. It's insulting the host, et al.

--Brant

Brant,

It's working. It's ugly, but it's working.

People will either find a way to communicate or stop communicating or continue communicating like this.

Let's see what happens.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

15 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

Welcoming hardcore leftists to an Objectivist website is a mistake.

He has explained his reasons to me and while they are coherent, they make sense, I nevertheless disagree with the wisdom of it.

Would Ayn Rand want hardcore leftists or sniveling little retards like Jules at websites dedicated to her ideas? I think she would call that an insult to her, but that’s all beside the point since it is his site.

Jon,

Setting aside your spat with Jules, Kat agrees with you.

She stopped posting on OL years ago because of this.

I still hold to my reasons. (And, yes, Kat and I both love each other like never before.  ) 

From my perspective, we helped elect President Trump. The other way helped elect Bush and Obama (and before)--in our very subcommunity. We had high-level Objectivst people defending Hillary Clinton, for God's sake. Do you think they run venues that Rand would have approved of? 

 

Think about it...

How many minds did those O-Land places change back then when it counted? Hell, they couldn't even get a rational message together. They let style and grandstanding totally consume their substance. 

And if the lefties have a valid point, we need to think about it. So we need to let them make their best case and confront it without demanding they go away.

As to the tone, personally, I want you to tone it down a bit, but I'm not going to insist on it. My reasons have nothing to do with courtesy or good manners or all that. It's about changing the minds of people who are looking for answers. That much heat is counterproductive to that intention and then habituation sets in. Then harsh words don't even carry a punch anymore.

But, I also think people have to be who they are. So, in my view, you will do what is best for Jon, and that will be what is best for OL. I have a very high regard for your character and I know you want the best. I know you are not just trolling. I'm waiting for others to perceive this.

(I would not allow your form of expression with a newbie on OL, though.  They haven't earned it.)

William just tried to do a peer pressure thing about you backstage and I bowed out of the conversation. I didn't even respond. I don't do that. And I mention it because I prefer the sunlight.

I never see you do that. When you contacted me backstage, you asked for an explanation, not made demands. You mulled it over then you made your own decisions.

That's what I would do. Your kind is my kind of people.

 

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Well, as a newbie on OL .   .  .

--anon

[Ellen Stuttle]

16 hours ago, william.scherk said:

I report most of these disturbing posts, but no one seems to be picking up at the other end.

I thought, reading that, "You would [report posts]."  Nanny time.

 

4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William just tried to do a peer pressure thing about you backstage and I bowed out of the conversation. I didn't even respond. I don't do that. And I mention it because I prefer the sunlight.

I never see you do that. When you contacted me backstage, you asked for an explanation, not made demands. You mulled it over then you made your own decisions.

That's what I would do. Your kind is my kind of people.

 

Michael

I'm not surprised that William tried backstage pressure.  Again, he would.

I like Jon quite a bit, though I think the name-calling is becoming overdone.

I'm puzzled about the hostility between Jon and Jules.  How did that get started?

Ellen

PS: Michael, agreed with your remarks about OLand and the absurdity of prominent O'ists supporting Hillary Clinton, and about this site's helping elect Trump - not in any big influence way, your readership isn't large enough, but some help, for which "Bravo!"

[Brant Gaede]

I have stopped reading my newspaper and watching TV news.(In fact I simply don't watch TV.)

Too much crap about climate change and Donald Trump.

45 years ago my stepmother called The New York Times a "traitor newspaper." I didn't realize until recently it's been crap all along (too).

--Brant 

[Peter]

14 hours ago, Jules Troy said:

What’s sad is you actually had to look.

How many people no longer post here because of me.  Zero.

How many no longer post here because of you?  Probably all of them.  Yeah that’s good value.

Click on your name at the top left of OL. Go to the "do not see messages place" and type in his name. He Really is an ab-whorent psycho. something is really wrong there.   

[Peter]

42 minutes ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

I thought, reading that, "You would [report posts]."  Nanny time.

What if . . . you were at a book signing for AR or BB or NB and Jon Le Retard was there and started calling you a cunt, bitch or whore . . . in person? In person would be worse than on a website but I still think doing it "publicly" and thereby coersing everyone to read it, who is following a topic is poor social behavior. It's not a good idea to allow them to moderate their action but continue . . . unless the untouchable is donating to OL that is. But if someone is poisoning the well dot dot dot? How much is that worth. What does Le Retard contribute to objectivism? Does he "bring in" viewers? I doubt it.  

[william.scherk]

Marxist Pedophile Nannies.

56 minutes ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

17 hours ago, william.scherk said:

I report most of these disturbing posts, but no one seems to be picking up at the other end.

I thought, reading that, "You would [report posts]."  Nanny time.

5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William just tried to do a peer pressure thing about you backstage and I bowed out of the conversation. I didn't even respond. I don't do that. And I mention it because I prefer the sunlight.

I never see you do that. When you contacted me backstage, you asked for an explanation, not made demands. You mulled it over then you made your own decisions.

That's what I would do. Your kind is my kind of people.

Sunlight for 'marxist pedophile' accusations:

16 hours ago, william.scherk said:

Michael, can you please deal with the comment I quoted in the title?  I don't think anybody wants this place to be one where we accuse each other of being a pedophile.

I add the others so we can be aware of your decision ... about this kind of defamation on your forum.

Return to the topic of "fake news" ...

Washington White Supremacist Arrested for Threatening Mass Killings of Jews and other Minorities

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I want to tell a story.

Back in 2005, I started writing on a site called SoloHQ. (It later split into Rebirth of Reason and Solo Passion. OL grew out of the split. Incidentally, I use the RoR link below since, barring the title, that is what SoloHQ looked like when I posted there.)

People tended to like my stuff because I poured out my heart in a way that was not common in O-Land. Nobody opened themselves up like that in public--they still don't. However, putting yourself out there like I did was terrifying. But I had to do it. I just had to...

One of the first tell-all articles I wrote was called Letter to Madalena ... An Homage to the Value of Valuing. God knows what came over me to write it, but write it I did. And I had no idea how it would be accepted. Would they hate me? Would they think I was a wuss? Would I be thrown out of the Objectivist movement before I was even accepted into it? What would happen?

My nerves were a mess.

Take a look at the very first reader post.

I cannot describe how this landed inside me. I didn't know Jon from Adam. It was one of the most satisfying reviews I ever received for anything I did (and don't forget, I had been a performing artist and composer in Brazil with a name--not a big name, but a name).

So if anyone thinks I am going to come down on Jon for anything, anything at all, they don't know me.

It's just not going to happen.

Ever.

 

btw - On another point, I wish I had read the following book back then. I was simply writing as it welled up in me. I had no form or template in mind. No discipline to speak of. As the saying goes, I sat at the keyboard, opened my veins and bled.

But, little did I know, this kind of personal narrative with meaning is a formal form and there is instruction for it. The book below, the one I am right now learning from, just came out. There must be other books from the past on this form of writing, but the one below is plenty to learn with. 

Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling by Matthew Dicks.

Matthew is a bigwig in The Moth, one of the world's best storytelling organizations. From what I gather, he only started this form of story creating and storytelling five years ago--and he has already codified the essentials. What a mind and heart...

My article is a little different than the way Matthew does it, but not in the fundamentals. If anyone is interested in learning how to write personal narratives with meaning, I recommend this book as The Best. Number One. Nothing Comes Close.

Had this book existed back in 2005 and had I read it, I would have written a lot more articles and stories in that style. As it was, I always thought my writing at that time was a glorified, jazzed up form of student essay. Amateur stuff. So I abandoned it. Besides, back then I was winging it. I didn't know what the hell I was doing and I didn't know where to grow.

For a different way of saying it, I should have trusted Jon's reaction (and the reactions of others) as the proper feedback on how it was resonating, not my own insecurities. And, in a certain manner I did. His reaction always stayed with me as I studied writing and wrote over the years. The memory helped when the blues came (which it does at times for even the best artists).

Jon gave me something you cannot buy for any price, especially since it came from the most sincere place within him. He has my eternal gratitude.

Anything to the contrary is not negotiable.

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

I have stopped reading my newspaper and watching TV news.(In fact I simply don't watch TV.)

Too much crap about climate change and Donald Trump.

45 years ago my stepmother called The New York Times a "traitor newspaper." I didn't realize until recently it's been crap all along (too).

--Brant 

That put a big smile on my face, Brant. I am really glad to hear that.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

19 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I cannot describe how this landed inside me. I didn't know Jon from Adam.

btw - Jon and I never talked about this. He's seeing it for the first time, just like you are. I don't even know if he remembers writing, "Wow." But I sure remember.

 

Michael

[Jon Letendre]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I want to tell a story.

Back in 2005, I started writing on a site called SoloHQ. (It later split into Rebirth of Reason and Solo Passion. OL grew out of the split. Incidentally, I use the RoR link below since, barring the title, that is what SoloHQ looked like when I posted there.)

People tended to like my stuff because I poured out my heart in a way that was not common in O-Land. Nobody opened themselves up like that in public--they still don't. However, putting yourself out there like I did was terrifying. But I had to do it. I just had to...

One of the first tell-all articles I wrote was called Letter to Madalena ... An Homage to the Value of Valuing. God knows what came over me to write it, but write it I did. And I had no idea how it would be accepted. Would they hate me? Would they think I was a wuss? Would I be thrown out of the Objectivist movement before I was even accepted into it? What would happen?

My nerves were a mess.

Take a look at the very first reader post.

I cannot describe how this landed inside me. It was one of the most satisfying reviews I ever received for anything I did (and don't forget, I had been a performing artist and composer in Brazil with a name--not a big name, but a name).

So if anyone thinks I am going to come down on Jon for anything, anything at all, they don't know me.

It's just not going to happen.

Ever.

 

btw - On another point, I wish I had read the following book back then. I was simply writing as it welled up in me. I had no form or template in mind. No discipline to speak of. As the saying goes, I sat at the keyboard, opened my veins and bled.

But, little did I know, this kind of personal narrative with meaning is a formal form and there is instruction for it. The book below, the one I am right now learning from, just came out. There must be other books from the past on this form of writing, but the one below is plenty to learn with. 

Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling by Matthew Dicks.

Matthew is a bigwig in The Moth, one of the world's best storytelling organizations. From what I gather, he only started this form of story creating and storytelling five years ago--and he has already codified the essentials. What a mind and heart...

My article is a little different than the way Matthew does it, but not in the fundamentals. If anyone is interested in learning how to write personal narratives with meaning, I recommend this book as The Best. Number One. Nothing Comes Close.

Had this book existed back in 2005 and had I read it, I would have written a lot more articles and stories in that style. As it was, I always thought my writing at that time was a glorified, jazzed up form of student essay. Amateur stuff. So I abandoned it. Besides, back then I was winging it. I didn't know what the hell I was doing and I didn't know where to grow.

For a different way of saying it, I should have trusted Jon's reaction (and the reactions of others) as the proper feedback on how it was resonating, not my own insecurities. And, in a certain manner I did. His reaction always stayed with me as I studied writing and wrote over the years. The memory helped when the blues came (which it does at times for even the best artists).

Jon gave me something you cannot buy for any price, especially since it came from the most sincere place within him. He has my eternal gratitude.

Anything to the contrary is not negotiable.

Michael

Wow again. I never would have guessed it meant all that to you.

And we had real problems with each other, you and I. I couldn’t figure you out and didn’t like much of what I thought I was seeing. And there was that time I lobbed a Ted Keer scale bomb on Kat over advice to a young Indian person struggling to decide whether to go with the romantic love of their life or obey their disapproving parents. Our alliance is special for being pretty much impossible.

I can sincerely return the sentiments in your final lines above, Michael.

At some point mid-00’s I decided to respect you. Just decided it, like people talk about forgivenesses - for my own quality of life, in order to move on. I never thought of you as someone who could teach me something. I posted some at OL but not much or consistently.

When Donald J. Trump announced I started reading your work in that thread. I was impressed by how you presented your ideas. You made perfect sense to me and yet almost no one could follow your presentation. I do not mean people disagreed with you. I mean they made quite clear, in their own words, that they did not understand that which you were saying. Selene was a notable exception. Very rarely were you ever asked for clarification, no, they just charged ahead against one straw man or another. Or got uncomfortable and mad. I was deeply fascinated by it all.

Early on it was silly talk anyway, Donald Trump wasn’t going to go anywhere, really. But for me, that was the hook that made me check in on that thread often, namely, you were saying things I had never heard of before, (whether any was true or not is beside my point) and these were coherent assertions, and yet no one could wrap their minds around any of it. They did not understand what you were saying. As someone who did, I could see this plain fact.

You were saying that the world was very different than we all thought it was and I suppose no one wants hear that they have been asleep or duped, or they have been naive. I was horrified that you might be right and decided it should be looked into.

I consciously avoided all of your sources and tried for what I could find on my own to look into your theses.

I soon found you were right about very much and went on to find even more. I would likely still be in the dark but for your jolt.

In 2015 Michael Stuart Kelly woke me up and I will forever be grateful.

[Jon Letendre]

4 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

I thought, reading that, "You would [report posts]."  Nanny time.

 

I'm not surprised that William tried backstage pressure.  Again, he would.

I like Jon quite a bit, though I think the name-calling is becoming overdone.

I'm puzzled about the hostility between Jon and Jules.  How did that get started?

Ellen

PS: Michael, agreed with your remarks about OLand and the absurdity of prominent O'ists supporting Hillary Clinton, and about this site's helping elect Trump - not in any big influence way, your readership isn't large enough, but some help, for which "Bravo!"

Of course he would! He is a leftist. And one of exceptionally low personal character, at that.

I like you also, Ellen. I see that some people despise you and, usually, I think always actually, it’s someone I had already understood to possess again, exceptionally poor personal character. So I deduced you are one of the good ones a long time ago.

And whenever I dig into a substantive disagreement you are having with someone I always find you have it all over them and they are just too hopelessly dense to even grasp that that is the situation. Mostly I like you because you are a rarity around here: you stay on topic and you actually listen to, process, and then address the points your discussant makes.

[Jules Troy]

4 hours ago, Peter said:

What if . . . you were at a book signing for AR or BB or NB and Jon Le Retard was there and started calling you a cunt, bitch or whore . . . in person? In person would be worse than on a website but I still think doing it "publicly" and thereby coersing everyone to read it, who is following a topic is poor social behavior. It's not a good idea to allow them to moderate their action but continue . . . unless the untouchable is donating to OL that is. But if someone is poisoning the well dot dot dot? How much is that worth. What does Le Retard contribute to objectivism? Does he "bring in" viewers? I doubt it.  

Pretty obvious Jon gets to say whatever he wants without repercussion.  Pretty sad how he asked questions about my childhood and me being me just answered knowing fully that he only did so in order to attack me at a later date.      

A small part of me actually was hoping that it was not what he was going to be doing but being the sociopath that he is I knew he couldn’t help himself.

MSK.. that lil flame war would have even made Perigo blush.  Just sayin..

[Jon Letendre]

7 minutes ago, Jules Troy said:

Pretty obvious Jon gets to say whatever he wants without repercussion.  Pretty sad how he asked questions about my childhood and me being me just answered knowing fully that he only did so in order to attack me at a later date.      

A small part of me actually was hoping that it was not what he was going to be doing but being the sociopath that he is I knew he couldn’t help himself.

MSK.. that lil flame war would have even made Perigo blush.  Just sayin..

You lie.

We tried leaving each other alone and you can't do it.

You always come back one week or one month later with a substance-free personal putdown.

I don't give a flying fuck about you, Jules. You are a zero. Zero. Leave me alone and you will find that i never mention you again.

Do you want to try again?

[Jon Letendre]

4 hours ago, Peter said:

Click on your name at the top left of OL. Go to the "do not see messages place" and type in his name. He Really is an ab-whorent psycho. something is really wrong there.   

Where are these messages?

[Jon Letendre]

4 hours ago, Peter said:

What if . . . you were at a book signing for AR or BB or NB and Jon Le Retard was there and started calling you a cunt, bitch or whore . . . in person? In person would be worse than on a website but I still think doing it "publicly" and thereby coersing everyone to read it, who is following a topic is poor social behavior. It's not a good idea to allow them to moderate their action but continue . . . unless the untouchable is donating to OL that is. But if someone is poisoning the well dot dot dot? How much is that worth. What does Le Retard contribute to objectivism? Does he "bring in" viewers? I doubt it.  

Socially dense people like you fascinate me. You really don't see aggression at all do you, if none of the individual words used are naughty ones?

Jonathan alluded to the phenomenon in Aristotle's Wheel Paradox and you are a great example.

 

Jonathan: "I think what's going on here is the WWE/NFL Referee Effect. A player takes a cheap shot, or two or three, the ref happens to not see it, but when the player who got dinged retaliates, the ref is right there on top of it. It's pretty common in O-land."

And: "It's completely about their condescension, their evading questions, immediately rejecting substantive content without even taking the time to absorb it."

 

I don't think you can see the other side for what they do.

Jonathan and I do see it and we correctly understand that condescension, evading, only pretending to listen, etc. are serious violations of the ground rules of rational discussion, and we react accordingly.

I think that for whatever reason you just do not see those violations, and so you jump in when anger or name-calling appears, thinking it started, irrationally, right there.

It is really quite an unattractive a habit, Peter. Hopefully you will consider this, come to see you have this deficiency of social perception and choose to stay out of these situations that didn't even involve you in the first place, anyway.

[caroljane]

25 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

Socially dense people like you fascinate me. You really don't see aggression at all do you, if none of the individual words used are naughty ones?

....

It is really quite an unattractive a habit, Peter. Hopefully you will consider this, come to see you have this deficiency of social perception and choose to stay out of these situations that didn't even involve you in the first place, anyway.

Socially greedy people like you, Jon, I can't say fascinate me, but certainly perplex me.

With every weapon you have in gratuitous insult, obscene and beyond name-calling to the point of psychotic delusion, you have wasted oceans of hate over a few harmless individuals here with the goal of getting us to stop posting on the site, because you disagree with our ideas and can't tolerate any back talk from from non-Trump worshippers. You obviously support a total re-branding of OL into a 24-hour Trump rally, and may well succeed. 

Of course, you have plenty of hate left over for all public figures who are anti-Trump too, so I don't worry about your stamina.  Your input and Jonathan's are obviously paramount to Michael , so your position on this site is pretty supreme. But as mentioned, you are greedy. What is the quote, "It is  not enough to succeed, everyone else must fail"? Dissent must be silenced and banished.

MSK has expressed his gratitude and loyalty to you, and his devotion to his Kat is legendary, so I truly admire him for not acquiescing to your urgings that he get rid of the people who have criticized you.

Must be tough  not being able to throw people off the site on your own authority, eh?

Just put us all on ignore.. you'll sleep better.

 

 

[Jon Letendre]

5 minutes ago, caroljane said:

Socially greedy people like you, Jon, I can't say fascinate me, but certainly perplex me.

With every weapon you have in gratuitous insult, obscene and beyond name-calling to the point of psychotic delusion, you have wasted oceans of hate over a few harmless individuals here with the goal of getting us to stop posting on the site, because you disagree with our ideas and can't tolerate any back talk from from non-Trump worshippers. You obviously support a total re-branding of OL into a 24-hour Trump rally, and may well succeed. 

Of course, you have plenty of hate left over for all public figures who are anti-Trump too, so I don't worry about your stamina.  Your input and Jonathan's are obviously paramount to Michael , so your position on this site is pretty supreme. But as mentioned, you are greedy. What is the quote, "It is  not enough to succeed, everyone else must fail"? Dissent must be silenced and banished.

MSK has expressed his gratitude and loyalty to you, and his devotion to his Kat is legendary, so I truly admire him for not acquiescing to your urgings that he get rid of the people who have criticized you.

Must be tough  not being able to throw people off the site on your own authority, eh?

Just put us all on ignore.. you'll sleep better.

 

 

You lie, lie lie.

Put me on ignore, Carol.

But you can't. You always come back for more substance-free condescension and put-downs.

Leave me alone and you see I never mention you again.

But you can't.

[caroljane]

1 minute ago, Jon Letendre said:

You lie, lie lie.

Put me on ignore, Carol.

But you can't. You always come back for more substance-free condescension and put-downs.

Leave me alone and you see I never mention you again.

But you can't.

You made that win-lose proposition to William and Jules, and they both turned you down, and now you offer it to me--

Not much of a negotiator, are you?

[Jon Letendre]

Juiles or Carol can anytime take me up on my offer to totally leave each other alone.

They're not interested (Billy, Carol) or they try and fail (Jules.)

And I am the problem?

[Jon Letendre]

3 minutes ago, caroljane said:

You made that win-lose proposition to William and Jules, and they both turned you down, and now you offer it to me--

Not much of a negotiator, are you?

This deranged fuckwit thinks of leaving one another alone as I win, they lose.

So, who really is the source of the problem - when only I want to be left alone and to leave them alone while what they want is to continue harassing me?

What sort of moral moron looks at that and concludes I am the problem?

[caroljane]

1 minute ago, Jon Letendre said:

This deranged fuckwit thinks of leaving one another alone as I win, they lose.

So, who really is the source of the problem - when only I want to be left alone and to leave them alone while what they want is to continue harassing me?

What sort of moral moron looks at that and concludes I am the problem?

Well, I guess the moral morons interested in this dreary subject would have to go back and read our exchanges in chronological order and make up their own minds, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[Jon Letendre]

3 minutes ago, caroljane said:

Well, I guess the moral morons interested in this dreary subject would have to go back and read our exchanges in chronological order and make up their own minds, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

No Carol, not the past.

This is about going forward.

Leave me alone and I will do the same.

You can't do it.

(No leftist can, it goes against their deepest personality traits.)

[Brant Gaede]

4 hours ago, Jules Troy said:

Pretty obvious Jon gets to say whatever he wants without repercussion.  Pretty sad how he asked questions about my childhood and me being me just answered knowing fully that he only did so in order to attack me at a later date.      

A small part of me actually was hoping that it was not what he was going to be doing but being the sociopath that he is I knew he couldn’t help himself.

MSK.. that lil flame war would have even made Perigo blush.  Just sayin..

Jules, you and Jon are free to continue as you will. Jon has no more special posting status than you or I. Michael made that clear.

--Brant

Michael's not our paterfamilias