Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, BaalChatzaf said: But I do definitely know some possible explanations. I have no problem with your possible explanations. I have a problem with definitely excluding possible explanations until a definitive explanation can be found. Like you keep doing. It's dogmatic exclusion and there is no reason for it except faith. Once again, I am not talking about mythology. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Peter said: Empirically, we are alone in the Universe. Peter, I don't agree with this. Just because something has not been observed yet, that does not make its nonexistence empirical. Showing the impossibility or extreme unlikelihood of such an existence would be empirical. In fact, science-wise, Stephen Hawking is constantly in the news warning about alien life. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 30 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 12 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Anyway, back to fake news: Yeah, I already posted that. Michael Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Michael wrote: I don't agree with this. Just because something has not been observed yet, that does not make its nonexistence empirical. end quote em·pir·i·cal ADJECTIVE based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic: "they provided considerable empirical evidence to support their argument" synonyms: experiential · practical · heuristic · firsthand · hands-on · observed · evidence-based · seen · demonstrable. Its, (whatever the fantasy may be,) existence is nonexistent if it is not observed. That sounds farfetched and ethnocentric but there would need to be strong evidence to believe in “little green men,” for example. Weird Scientific theories may be postulated but those books sit on the loony bin of the library, like Lamarck-ianism (vs Darwinism,) with no observable proof. Relativity has empirical proof and those tiny little “atoms” have finally been seen. We have never walked on the sun, but we observe the sun, so it is a billions to none proposition that the sun exists. We need data to conjecture empirically. It is emotional to conjecture outside the realm of probability and possibility . . . . though a hell of a lot of fun. Quick! Get behind the force field, President Trump. Peter It's a strange thing, but when you are dreading something, and would give anything to slow down time, it has a disobliging habit of speeding up. ~J.K. Rowling, "The Hungarian Horntail," Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, 2000 It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well. ~J.K. Rowling, "King's Cross," Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, 2007, spoken by the character Albus Dumbledore Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real? ~J.K. Rowling, "King's Cross," Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, 2007, spoken by the character Albus Dumbledore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 Back to fake news, Rush Limbaugh just had an incredible theory today. He thinks the fake news revolution is going to explode on the Democrats in a devastating way. It goes like this. During the campaign, there was one fake poll after another. A ton of them. Every day. Day after day, multiple times a day. And a barrage of fake news stories about both Trump and Clinton. They all guaranteed that Clinton would win, that Trump had no chance in hell. The Democratic base believed this heart and soul. Their media informed them of it and they believed it. But Trump won. So to keep face, the Clinton folks invented a story about the Russians to explain how she had the election stolen from her. And the media has since been pounding this story with so many bogus stories, all based on anonymous sources, but with such certainty that the base believes it once again. The base truly believes this. The intelligent folks. The spaced out folks. The crazies. Even many Bernie folks believe it. However, everybody engaged in the different investigations are saying there is no evidence. Now that there is an independent counsel and, since nobody can even say what crime was committed, it's a pretty safe bet Mueller will not find any evidence, either. So some voices in the Democratic leadership are starting to quietly say maybe this impeachment idea is premature. The problem is, the base doesn't think so. They have been programmed to believe all the bogus stories and to hate the Russians and despise Trump and his supporters. They are lathered up in hatred. They are spoiling for a fight. Rush thinks the Democratic leaders are terrified of the day when they will have to tell their base that there is no evidence, so there will be no impeachment, and there was no collusion. He thinks there are so many unhinged fanatics within the Democratic party, the explosion is going to be ugly. I agree with him and it will be glorious. I love the idea of poetic justice--of the fake news promoters having their asses bit off by their own fake news. The problem is not going to be that this or that fake news story got discredited. It is going to be that their audience believed them. They are going to have to drink the poison they themselves brewed. The Great Dismantling of the Democratic Party is coming (at least as we know it) and President Trump won't even have to lift a finger to help. The furious hordes with the torches and pitchforks will be glad to do all the work. Now... if there were only a way for this to be the dismantling of the establishment crony elites instead of just the Democrats... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 19 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I have no problem with your possible explanations. I have a problem with definitely excluding possible explanations until a definitive explanation can be found. Like you keep doing. It's dogmatic exclusion and there is no reason for it except faith. Once again, I am not talking about mythology. Michael All proposed explanations bear the same burden and standard. A valid empirical attempt must be made to falsify any proposed explanations. The explanations or explanation that survives all the attempted falsifications will enjoy credible status subject to further checks and attempts to falsify. I consider proposed explanations from people that have sufficient scientific competence. I do not waste time with idle speculations not remotely supported by empirical data nor do I accept the argument from ignorance. He who proposes an explanation bears the burden of corroborating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: He who proposes an explanation bears the burden of corroborating it. Bob, Heh. And you have stated above there is no corroboration for your explanations. So far, a lot of hat and no horse or cattle... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 I'm going to probably go through this thread and pick out this dogmatic stuff that has nothing to do with fake news and make a new thread with those posts. Get them off this thread... Fake news is an important current issue that keeps getting sidetracked by Bob telling us in post after post what he accepts and doesn't accept about topics that are irrelevant to fake news along with rapid-fire high-school physics lessons. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Michael's Rush Limbaugh essay was just what I was trying to say on the Trump thread. Rush is a clever thinker, thinkier that I. So, what is next after the Russians, hackers, and fake impeachment? Does Trump have a drunken, younger brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Bob, Heh. And you have stated above there is no corroboration for your explanations. So far, a lot of hat and no horse or cattle... Michael I have not offered a single explanation on how life originated on this planet. But Craig Venter will offer an explanation of how he and his team made a replicating chemical complex out of not replicating parts. see: http://www.jcvi.org/cms/press/press-releases/full-text/article/first-self-replicating-synthetic-bacterial-cell-constructed-by-j-craig-venter-institute-researcher/home/ The first self replicating species. If you like video there is Craig's presentation on TED Think of this as the Reardon Metal of Genetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Peter, I don't agree with this. Just because something has not been observed yet, that does not make its nonexistence empirical. Showing the impossibility or extreme unlikelihood of such an existence would be empirical. In fact, science-wise, Stephen Hawking is constantly in the news warning about alien life. Michael Empirically we are alone in the universe does not imply there are no living things Elsewhere. All it implies is that we have found no other place where there is living stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Back to fake news, Rush Limbaugh just had an incredible theory today. He thinks the fake news revolution is going to explode on the Democrats in a devastating way. It goes like this. During the campaign, there was one fake poll after another. A ton of them. Every day. Day after day, multiple times a day. And a barrage of fake news stories about both Trump and Clinton. They all guaranteed that Clinton would win, that Trump had no chance in hell. The Democratic base believed this heart and soul. Their media informed them of it and they believed it. But Trump won. So to keep face, the Clinton folks invented a story about the Russians to explain how she had the election stolen from her. And the media has since been pounding this story with so many bogus stories, all based on anonymous sources, but with such certainty that the base believes it once again. The base truly believes this. The intelligent folks. The spaced out folks. The crazies. Even many Bernie folks believe it. However, everybody engaged in the different investigations are saying there is no evidence. Now that there is an independent counsel and, since nobody can even say what crime was committed, it's a pretty safe bet Mueller will not find any evidence, either. So some voices in the Democratic leadership are starting to quietly say maybe this impeachment idea is premature. The problem is, the base doesn't think so. They have been programmed to believe all the bogus stories and to hate the Russians and despise Trump and his supporters. They are lathered up in hatred. They are spoiling for a fight. Rush thinks the Democratic leaders are terrified of the day when they will have to tell their base that there is no evidence, so there will be no impeachment, and there was no collusion. He thinks there are so many unhinged fanatics within the Democratic party, the explosion is going to be ugly. I agree with him and it will be glorious. I love the idea of poetic justice--of the fake news promoters having their asses bit off by their own fake news. The problem is not going to be that this or that fake news story got discredited. It is going to be that their audience believed them. They are going to have to drink the poison they themselves brewed. The Great Dismantling of the Democratic Party is coming (at least as we know it) and President Trump won't even have to lift a finger to help. The furious hordes with the torches and pitchforks will be glad to do all the work. Now... if there were only a way for this to be the dismantling of the establishment crony elites instead of just the Democrats... Michael And Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact and the lefties went WTF! bonkers. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 8 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Back to fake news, Rush Limbaugh just had an incredible theory today. He thinks the fake news revolution is going to explode on the Democrats in a devastating way. It goes like this. During the campaign, there was one fake poll after another. A ton of them. Every day. Day after day, multiple times a day. And a barrage of fake news stories about both Trump and Clinton. They all guaranteed that Clinton would win, that Trump had no chance in hell. The Democratic base believed this heart and soul. Their media informed them of it and they believed it. But Trump won. So to keep face, the Clinton folks invented a story about the Russians to explain how she had the election stolen from her. And the media has since been pounding this story with so many bogus stories, all based on anonymous sources, but with such certainty that the base believes it once again. The base truly believes this. The intelligent folks. The spaced out folks. The crazies. Even many Bernie folks believe it. However, everybody engaged in the different investigations are saying there is no evidence. Now that there is an independent counsel and, since nobody can even say what crime was committed, it's a pretty safe bet Mueller will not find any evidence, either. So some voices in the Democratic leadership are starting to quietly say maybe this impeachment idea is premature. The problem is, the base doesn't think so. They have been programmed to believe all the bogus stories and to hate the Russians and despise Trump and his supporters. They are lathered up in hatred. They are spoiling for a fight. Rush thinks the Democratic leaders are terrified of the day when they will have to tell their base that there is no evidence, so there will be no impeachment, and there was no collusion. He thinks there are so many unhinged fanatics within the Democratic party, the explosion is going to be ugly. I agree with him and it will be glorious. I love the idea of poetic justice--of the fake news promoters having their asses bit off by their own fake news. The problem is not going to be that this or that fake news story got discredited. It is going to be that their audience believed them. They are going to have to drink the poison they themselves brewed. The Great Dismantling of the Democratic Party is coming (at least as we know it) and President Trump won't even have to lift a finger to help. The furious hordes with the torches and pitchforks will be glad to do all the work. Now... if there were only a way for this to be the dismantling of the establishment crony elites instead of just the Democrats... Michael With the House firmly in Republican hands there will be no impeachment in this session of Congress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 6 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said: Empirically we are alone in the universe does not imply there are no living things Elsewhere. All it implies is that we have found no other place where there is living stuff. http://www.fortfreedom.org/s21.htm http://www.fortfreedom.org/s20.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Back to fake news, Rush Limbaugh just had an incredible theory today. Here it is from the horse's mouth. Transcript of segment of Rush Limbaugh show earlier today: Democrats Walk Back Impeachment Talk Because They’re Scared to Death of What They’ve Created Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 18 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I have no problem with your possible explanations. I have a problem with definitely excluding possible explanations until a definitive explanation can be found. Like you keep doing. It's dogmatic exclusion and there is no reason for it except faith. Once again, I am not talking about mythology. Michael Since I mentioned possible explanations that others have provided I clearly do not exclude them. I do not accept an explanation as possible unless there is some empirical evidence to support it and I do not accept an explanation as conclusive until there is much evidence to support it and to render other tendered explanations as less likely. The is little evidence to suggest that evolution occurs for an end or a purpose. Why do humans have a vermiform appendix when there is no function in the human body for it? The appendix resembles a vestigial stomach which our ancestors (long ago pre-human) might have had. Humans also have a vestigial tail (the cocyx) at the end of their spine. This is all that remains of tails which are tree dwelling long ago ape-like ancestors had, which did have a purpose (the monkey type tail is a prehensile extra limb), but has no purpose in humans. So its vestigial remnant remains in the human structure even though it no longer has a function that promotes human reproductive fitness. This strongly suggests that purpose has no necessary place in explaining evolution. We have characteristics that are genetically inherited but serve no purpose (or appear to serve no purpose) in promoting our reproductive fitness. Having these vestigial organs does not render us less reproductively fit so they have not been filtered out by natural selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 54 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said: Why do humans have a vermiform appendix when there is no function in the human body for it? The appendix resembles a vestigial stomach which our ancestors (long ago pre-human) might have had. Bacteria. http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/news/20071012/appendix-may-have-purpose#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 33 minutes ago, jts said: Bacteria. http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/news/20071012/appendix-may-have-purpose#1 There are plenty of other places in the digestive tract where bacteria can lodge and multiply. In the meantime the appendix is a site for deadly infection. Fortunately appendix infection is sufficiently rare so as not to be an impediment to reproductive fitness. Most of us get to the age of reproduction without suffering a debilitating or fatal appendix infection. Now that appendix infections are readily treatable with antibiotics or can be removed safely by surgery, having an appendix is unlikely to be eliminated by natural selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 17 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I'm going to probably go through this thread and pick out this dogmatic stuff that has nothing to do with fake news and make a new thread with those posts. Get them off this thread... Fake news is an important current issue that keeps getting sidetracked by Bob telling us in post after post what he accepts and doesn't accept about topics that are irrelevant to fake news along with rapid-fire high-school physics lessons. Michael Go to it. Filtering and classifying has its virtues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said: Go to it. Filtering and classifying has its virtues. Actually, I don't have time to clean up the mess right now. I'll just do like below and hope that readers who are interested in Fake News (which is the title of the thread) instead of high-school physics lessons will simply skip over your posts that do high-school physics lessons as a minor irritation. Just so you know, that's exactly what I am doing. I've stopped reading your posts when I detect the high-school physics lesson. 21 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 21 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: On 5/21/2017 at 11:33 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Anyway, back to fake news: Yeah, I already posted that. Michael Michael Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 On 5/22/2017 at 0:52 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: ... Rush Limbaugh just had an incredible theory today. He thinks the fake news revolution is going to explode on the Democrats in a devastating way. It goes like this. During the campaign, there was one fake poll after another. A ton of them. Every day. Day after day, multiple times a day. And a barrage of fake news stories about both Trump and Clinton. They all guaranteed that Clinton would win, that Trump had no chance in hell. The Democratic base believed this heart and soul. Their media informed them of it and they believed it. But Trump won. So to keep face, the Clinton folks invented a story about the Russians to explain how she had the election stolen from her. And the media has since been pounding this story with so many bogus stories, all based on anonymous sources, but with such certainty that the base believes it once again. The base truly believes this. The intelligent folks. The spaced out folks. The crazies. Even many Bernie folks believe it. However, everybody engaged in the different investigations are saying there is no evidence. Now that there is an independent counsel and, since nobody can even say what crime was committed, it's a pretty safe bet Mueller will not find any evidence, either. So some voices in the Democratic leadership are starting to quietly say maybe this impeachment idea is premature. The problem is, the base doesn't think so. They have been programmed to believe all the bogus stories and to hate the Russians and despise Trump and his supporters. They are lathered up in hatred. They are spoiling for a fight. Rush thinks the Democratic leaders are terrified of the day when they will have to tell their base that there is no evidence, so there will be no impeachment, and there was no collusion. He thinks there are so many unhinged fanatics within the Democratic party, the explosion is going to be ugly. I agree with him and it will be glorious. I love the idea of poetic justice--of the fake news promoters having their asses bit off by their own fake news. The problem is not going to be that this or that fake news story got discredited. It is going to be that their audience believed them. They are going to have to drink the poison they themselves brewed. And... On 5/22/2017 at 11:05 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Here it is from the horse's mouth. Transcript of segment of Rush Limbaugh show earlier today: Democrats Walk Back Impeachment Talk Because They’re Scared to Death of What They’ve Created Today, Rush dug deeper and it's even funnier. Poll: Majority of Democrat Voters Think Russians Hacked Voting Here is the funny stuff: Quote That is the phrase: “Russia hacked the election.” You know what people who are not capable of critical thinking are going to think, knee-jerk reaction when you say that? You’re already a livid Democrat. You’re already ticked off because Hillary lost. You’re already mad at that. You hate Trump on general principles. And then Trump wins, and your friends start talking about collusion with the Russians. And then comes the very, very precise allegation that the Russians “hacked the election.” That’s different than the Russians colluded with Trump during the campaign. “Hacking the election.” A lot of people are gonna think that means that the Russians somehow found a way to tamper with the vote — voting machines, paper ballots. But since they don’t think critically, they’re not gonna take it any further. They’re just gonna accept — because of prejudice and bias — that the Russians hacked the election. . . . ... the results in the YouGov poll (ready for this?): 55% of Democrats think that it is probably or definitely true that Russia hacked vote totals to get Trump elected. Folks, this is not 55% who believe that the Russians colluded with Trump. This is 55% of Democrats who believe that the Russians actually hacked voting machines and that the election was literally stolen! Who has made them believe this? It’s their buddies in the mainstream media, followed by willing accomplices in the Democrat Party. There have been two memes: Russians colluded with Trump. Trump colluded with Russia. Despite the claims that there’s been no evidence found. That gets covered up and dwarfed by a year’s worth of stories featuring countless anonymous sources, former and current high-ranking government officials. Nevertheless, every story — practically every story, if you dug deep in it — would admit that, so far, there’s no evidence. But these Democrats never got that far. So the Democrats are thinking that their voters are far too sophisticated to really know what’s going on here, so it’s a wink and nod and they’ll be in the game. No, no, no. They’re buying this. There are now 55% of Democrat voters think the Russians stole election by hacking voting machines or whatever they think the mechanism was. Now, those people, because they believe that, are convinced that Comey knows it. They were convinced that Sally Yates knows it. They are convinced that Mueller is going to find it! They’re convinced that Eric Holder and Obama and John Brennan know it. So, therefore, they are convinced that it’s going to be made public in an investigation, and they are convinced that Trump may go to jail. They are convinced. They are just waiting for all of it to unfold and happen. Al Franken had to tell ’em it wasn’t gonna happen this month. This is a problem for Democrats, ’cause this isn’t gonna happen, because that didn’t happen. The Russians did not hack the election. The Russians had nothing to do with the outcome of the election! That’s all on Hillary. And one day, these people are gonna have to told. One day these people are gonna figure out there isn’t gonna be an investigation. One day… Well, there isn’t gonna be the revelation, and there isn’t gonna be a conviction, and there isn’t gonna be a frog march in handcuffs of Donald Trump to the nearest jail. There isn’t gonna be Donald Trump lined up before a firing squad. This isn’t gonna happen. And when it doesn’t, when these 55% and growing figure out that there’s nothing here, what are they gonna do? I’m telling you: The Democrats are scared to death of that day. . . . I think this poll is one of the reasons why so many Democrats are now starting to walk back this whole notion of impeachment. And now a couple more have joined the chorus and are saying not only is there not gonna be any impeachment this year, there isn’t gonna be any impeachment, period. They’re tiptoeing with it, they’re whispering it. They have to do this gradually. This is like withdrawing these people off of a very, very addictive drug. They can’t take ’em off this cold turkey or who knows what they’ll do. They’re having to walk this back very, very slowly. In other words, the Clinton folks--with the collusion of the mainstream media--tried to float a wholly made up story to lie to Trump supporters, presumed their own people were sophisticated enough to know what was going on, and their own supporters fell for it. Not only did they fall for it, their bloodlust is growing as are their numbers. And there is no way for the Clinton people or the media to make good on the BS they have been selling. Crowds are not rational once they get riled up. And if they will not be able to get Trump's blood, they will get the blood of someone. In one way or another. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: And... Today, Rush dug deeper and it's even funnier. Poll: Majority of Democrat Voters Think Russians Hacked Voting Here is the funny stuff: In other words, the Clinton folks--with the collusion of the mainstream media--tried to float a wholly made up story to lie to Trump supporters, presumed their own people were sophisticated enough to know what was going on, and their own supporters fell for it. Not only did they fall for it, their bloodlust is growing as are their numbers. And there is no way for the Clinton people or the media to make good on the BS they have been selling. Crowds are not rational once they get riled up. And if they will not be able to get Trump's blood, they will get the blood of someone. In one way or another. Michael Hillary is finished..... I think even the Democrat faithful will eventually realize the cause of Hillary's defeat was Hillary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Impeach away! Good luck with the trial and conviction. The Republicans can say we're going along with it in the House. But won't have anything to do with it in the Senate. --Brant that's the way to blow em up--show em up and let em screw themselves up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said: Hillary is finished..... I think even the Democrat faithful will eventually realize the cause of Hillary's defeat was Hillary. I disagree. Republicans are timid, easily cowed. Democrats are incapable of thought, and she's no ways tired. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-24/trump-collapse-scapegoat-narrative-has-now-been-launched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 8 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said: I disagree. Republicans are timid, easily cowed. Democrats are incapable of thought, and she's no ways tired. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-24/trump-collapse-scapegoat-narrative-has-now-been-launched We shall see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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