Stealing moral if starving?

[Brant Gaede]

Freedom is as freedom does.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Israel keeps getting them U.S. govm't checks. Sure example of failure to live by American Capitalist values!

--Brant

[anthony]

18 hours ago, wolfdevoon said:

(shakes head, flabbergasted) How we became the guarantors of "peace" in the Persian Gulf, Africa, Asia Minor boggles the mind.

I don't want to quarrel with you, Tony. Believe what you will.

 

 

Wolf, I'm hardly quarreling. I only want you and others to just get real. Think like an individual and individualist, first (which I consider all here to be) and less like a person of any specific nationality. All I hear is the litany of "this country did such and such to our country". Therefore - bad. But an individual is not a nation, nor is each of us a politician/bureaucrat/statesman. You've travelled extensively and should find it easy to take a broad world view, as an individual. For what some individuals did and are doing and will always do, the USA too has had its share of idiots and maniacs - like Israel - but it can't be defined by them as being representative of all. Rather, they are the cost a free nation has to pay.

Often in these discussions, context is dropped and perspective lost. Just think for a moment. Israel is hardly a North Korea, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi (etc.)! It is a far, far cry from a Cuba, even, to which your President has reached out. So, why is it being condemned and isolated when others are left alone?

Think of yourself as member of a small race which found itself being collectivised, identified, dispossessed of properties, removed and systematically murdered. Think of the frantic desperation of any young Jewish person in Palestine knowing that ships packed with fleeing Jewish refugees were being turned back, within sight of land, by the British and the Royal Navy, back towards the European ports they'd just escaped from, then to be captured and herded into the concentration camps; think of the small land of pre-Israel as the last lifeboat in dangerous seas, at a time few countries were extending much, or enough sanctuary. Everybody must seem an enemy in that position, equally the British, the Nazis and the local Arab-Palestinians who constantly attacked the newcomers. Maybe even (bless his heart) President Truman, and as self-conflicted as he was about Jews and the new State, I have my doubts he would be targeted for assassination by Irgun. It doesn't make sense. (Anyway, as I say, it only takes one irrational individual).

About 11million Jews remained world-wide after the War, from 16.6 million in 1939. Homes and businesses and generations of lives in Europe were lost forever. Ask yourself, what would you have done then, as a survivor arrived in Palestine, and what would you do today to hold on to Israel? While not relaxing your moral principle in life, you would fight for it.

I am not asking for sympathy for Israel, or for anyone to 'love the Jews'. Hell, individual Jews can annoy me as much as any 'race' (especially some of the self-righteous, Lefty Jews). What I'm saying, Israelis earned, built and fought for what they have, and if nobody's going to appreciate their predominantly rational values, then rather leave Israel be. That's what I find tough to understand. Why the West who, nation by nation, came by their freedom from repression (religious, class, monarchist, racial, etc.) the hard way, would actively wish harm on this country - which emerged largely from repression. Is it transferred, delayed-reaction, post-colonial, white-guilt syndrome, I wonder? ( The "guilt" that nowadays we are all expected to beat ourselves up for).

[Wolf DeVoon]

Tony, I appreciate your thoughtful remarks, above. The notion of divine right to occupy territory escapes me.

[anthony]

Me too. Neither mysticism in land nor "manifest destiny" moves me much (while conceding that mine is a minority and secular view and I can and do understand most people's religious claim, or "right"). I argue only from the rationally-selfish morality for the existence of Israel, not the religious one. Still, not forgetting that Jews in small numbers always inhabited parts of that land, from Roman exile right until the Mandate - and - that they were officially ceded some land by the UN - and - the final and incontrovertible fact - present-day Jews are there now, they built a nation and aren't going anywhere soon.

[moralist]

Here, Wolf... this should give you and Mark something to celebrate...

Horrifying moment a truck driver mows down soldiers in Jerusalem - and REVERSES over them - killing four and injuring 15 before being shot dead at the wheel, as Israeli PM blames attack on ISIS 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4099046/Truck-attacker-shot-dead-killing-three-wounding-15-pedestrians-Jerusalem.html

[moralist]

3 hours ago, anthony said:

Me too. Neither mysticism in land nor "manifest destiny" moves me much (while conceding that mine is a minority and secular view and I can understand the people's religious claim, or "right"). I argue only from a rationally-selfish morality for the existence of Israel, not a religious one. Still, not forgetting that Jews in small numbers always inhabited parts of that land from Roman exile right until the Mandate - and - that they were officially ceded some land by the UN - and - the final and incontrovertible fact - present-day Jews are there now, they built a nation and aren't going anywhere soon.

I totally agree, Tony... and religion is not required to see what's morally right.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

21 minutes ago, moralist said:

Here, Wolf...

Now you've gone over a cliff, doofus. I feel sorry for you.

[moralist]

1 hour ago, wolfdevoon said:

Now you've gone over a cliff, doofus. I feel sorry for you.

No need to, Wolf... you and Mark are the "evil" Zionist conspiracy blamers here... not me.

I'm a Judeophile.

 

Greg