RobinReborn Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 The world's longest lasting dictator is dead. His brother still runs Cuba but this is clearly a step in the direction of freedom for Cuba... And also might lead to the closure of Guantanamo Bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Why close it? --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 16 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said: Why close it? Brant, During the campaign, Trump said we don't need to close the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. We need to fill it up. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backlighting Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 5 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Brant, During the campaign, Trump said we don't need to close the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. We need to fill it up. Michael Great comment from Trump...and bring back "enhanced" interrogation. --J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 37 minutes ago, Backlighting said: Great comment from Trump...and bring back "enhanced" interrogation. --J People who are water-boarded often tell the interrogators just what they want to hear. Torture is not a reliable means of gaining probable or accurate information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backlighting Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said: People who are water-boarded often tell the interrogators just what they want to hear. Torture is not a reliable means of gaining probable or accurate information. Of course waterboarding isn't 100% effective...I get that. But if it's only effective some of the time by preventing additional American lives lost I say go for it. --J P.S. There are other methods one can and have used that might reap the desired results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinReborn Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: Why close it? --Brant Because if the US violates human rights we can't claim the moral high ground and should expect our enemies to do the same, possibly worse. And it's a waste of money, if the prisoners there have been there for a decade or more and haven't been accused of a crime we've got to consider the possibility that they might be completely innocent and just getting free food and shelter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Oh, you mean the prison camp. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Backlighting said: Of course waterboarding isn't 100% effective...I get that. Joe, I'm not so sure. I keep seeing lots of experts in waterboarding all over the Internet and they all keep yelling at each other. And the more they yell, the more they believe they are experts. Hell, I don't even know if waterboarding falls under torture if things like the rack are the standard. I wonder how many of these self-proclaimed experts have actually waterboarded someone or experienced what waterboarding feels like. (Oops... there goes the authority of the experts...) I'm happy with Trump's manner. He consults his own experts--the military personnel he trusts who give the orders and actually do these things. They know what works and doesn't. Morally, I don't think Trump has any issue with mistreating a killer to save an innocent. I know I don't. Also, I think he's not OK with torture to punish someone or to satisfy a sadistic urge (or even mistreatment or punishment qua punishment without a legal judgment). That's how he comes across to me. As to effectiveness, I'm no expert and I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure waterboarding would work on me. I'm no coward, but I do have an asshole that puckers. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinReborn Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 Regardless of the effectiveness of waterboarding, it does cause potential terrorists to fear what will happen to them if they are caught alive. Thus they are more likely to perform more dangerous suicide attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 2 hours ago, RobinReborn said: Thus they are more likely to perform more dangerous suicide attacks. RR, How do you know this? Are you an expert in terrorist mentality? From what little I know about mind control, a trade-off like you said is just not there in fanatics. Obedience is. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinReborn Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 It's a hypothesis, but let's just say I have more experience with terrorists than the average American. I hope you understand why I'm reluctant to share details. Obedience may be important to organized terrorists, but not to lone wolf terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 35 minutes ago, RobinReborn said: It's a hypothesis, but let's just say I have more experience with terrorists than the average American. RR, Sorry, but you don't come across to me like a person who is familiar with real violence. I bet you've watched a lot of TV and movies. I'm not being hostile, but you sound like a kid out of his depth. You sound like a good kid, though. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinReborn Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Sorry, but you don't come across to me like a person who is familiar with real violence. I bet you've watched a lot of TV and movies. Not sure what you mean by real violence... in many ways I am privileged and have not witnessed much violence directly (and I've barely perpetuated it, other than a few childhood fights and sports accidents my only acts of violence have been against a bird's egg and accidentally hitting a deer). That doesn't mean I don't understand it and that I don't know people who have been victims of it. I'm not sure that victims/perpetrators/witnesses of violence have much more insight into violence than observers, I certainly do not have PTSD and do not believe that having PTSD would help my judgement. I have not watched much TV (I have watched what I consider to be the best TV shows of the last few decades, The Wire, Breaking Bad and part of The Sopranos), I haven't seen that many movies either and generally prefer nonviolent movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 hours ago, RobinReborn said: Not sure what you mean by real violence... RR, Exactly my point. Real violence is shooting folks with guns (real bullets), bashing them with blunt and sharp objects that maim their bodies, lots of blood, broken bones. Things like that. Not just talked about. Done. In reality. In fact, this is the stuff real terrorists do. Real violence. 2 hours ago, RobinReborn said: I'm not sure that victims/perpetrators/witnesses of violence have much more insight into violence than observers... Jeez, you make me want to be young again... Where life can be a syllogism and experience an unknown abstraction... (And I'm not old, dammit... ) Like I said, you're a good kid... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinReborn Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 Not to reject a compliment, but at age 32 I'm not sure if the word 'kid' describes me (I could easily have kids of my own, and conceivably have grandkids as well). I do acknowledge that I have a long life ahead of me (especially since I take good care of my health). It's interesting how you define terrorism, I would say most terrorists spend a lot of time planning their attacks, then either die or spend the rest of their life on the run or in prison. Innocent lives are an abstraction for them in the conflict between their ideology (usually a religion) and some hypothetical opposing ideology. If they're just committing pedestrian acts of violence I'd call them rebels, or agents of a tyrannical government or gang members. FWIW my attitude is partly inspired by members of my family who are far older than you. You're never so old that you're trapped in your past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 ""I don't train to be 'fit enough' for the modern world, or to gain the esteem of the average modern man. I train because somewhere in my DNA there's a memory of a more ferocious world, a world where men could become what they are and reach the most terrifyingly magnificent state of their nature. I don't train to impress the majority of modern slobs. I train to be worthy enough to *carry water* for my barbarian fathers, and to be worthy of the company of men most like them alive today..."" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Men as supermen. Great for teenage schoolyard bullies and ganged-up white guys in prison or working, violent, sociopathic criminals. Books not needed. There's no need for more of them (men). --Brant oh, and women are great for dragging around by their hair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 10 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said: Men as supermen. Great for teenage schoolyard bullies and ganged-up white guys in prison or working, violent, sociopathic criminals. Books not needed. There's no need for more of them (men). --Brant women are great for dragging around by their hair False: https://www.blogger.com/profile/07819379929432101127 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 If he was a Navy Seal I'm impressed--by that. I can't evaluate the rest of his c.v. for lack of data. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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