RidleyReport

"NHexit" seizes on Brexit to demonstrate for Granite State independence 

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Glad to see OL has prospered despite all the years of Fedbook.  I haven't posted probably since about 2013, but your survival has brought me back.  Maybe also the high speed at which the world is beginning to turn. What are your thoughts on this: 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/Manchester-NH-Foundation-for-New-Hampshire-Independence-NHexit-secession-3029464
which was sparked by this:
http://NHexit.com
which was sparked by, well, me.  
 

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19 minutes ago, RidleyReport said:

Glad to see OL has prospered despite all the years of Fedbook.  I haven't posted probably since about 2013, but your survival has brought me back.  Maybe also the high speed at which the world is beginning to turn. What are your thoughts on this: 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/Manchester-NH-Foundation-for-New-Hampshire-Independence-NHexit-secession-3029464
which was sparked by this:
http://NHexit.com
which was sparked by, well, me.  
 

It is not going to happen.  Over half the voters in N.H.  are emigrants from Massachusetts who went north to escape Massachusetts income tax.  These people are unlikely to support secession.  And besides there is no practical legal way for any state to secede.  

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Was there a practical legal way for Latvia to secede from the Soviet Union?   Were there a lot of Russian immigrants in Estonia when she escaped?  How did regions like Chechnya fare...when they acted cautiously instead of declaring independence early?   Thanks for the response though Baal.

 

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3 minutes ago, RidleyReport said:

Was there a practical legal way for Latvia to secede from the Soviet Union?   Were there a lot of Russian immigrants in Estonia when she escaped?  How did regions like Chechnya fare...when they acted cautiously instead of declaring independence early?   Thanks for the response though Baal.

 

The Courts have ruled secession is illegal.  It would take an act of Congress to permit a state to secede,  and act similar in form to admitting a new State to the Union.  On practical grounds as well as legal grounds it is virtually impossible for N.H.  to leave the Union.  

Yoda says:  do not your breath hold until secedes New Hampshire does,  else blue turn you will.

Please see:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

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17 hours ago, RidleyReport said:

Was there a practical legal way for Latvia to secede from the Soviet Union

The Latvian government -- along with Estonia and Lithuania -- showed utmost practicality in 1987-1991.  Each responded to and helped build a huge popular movement, each held referendums on independence, and each received thumping majorities in favour.  The legalities were actually preserved in the context of an enfeebled Soviet state and Gorbachev reforms, despite opposition to independence.  

Although some soviet potentates may have held official and military opinions that independence was illegal, the transition was accomplished without great bloodshed. Because of the disintegration of the old order, a military coup was doomed to failure in Latvia, even if it meant to preserve the old relationship of province to Kremlin. In the end, the successor state to the USSR established a new legal regime recognizing the independence of the Baltic states, and removed its armed forces and armaments. A bit messy around the corners**, but hey.

Re New Hampshire separatism, sounds like a fun hobby.   I think Quebec and Alberta will have seceded from Canada long before any American state gets a squeaker majority in an independence referendum. And I think that is a basic modern requirement for successful departures.  The people must 'speak' .... the ayes must have it.

I think Bob is suggesting two realities: public opinion and legal mechanism. The day that 50.03% of NH voters commit to leave the Union is the day the legalities begin to be finessed.  Unless there is a taste for blood.

______________

** ie, Russian-speaking minority citizenship rules, nativism and ethnic exclusion.  Russian-speakers are not tempted to 'return' to Russia from the prosperous enclave that is home, and by their right of residence,  descendents will eventually assimilate.  The Baltics are now harnessed tightly to the West, to the EU and the Euro, to NATO, even as one-in-five are Russophone and of those a majority without citizenship.  To Russia's chagrin.

Comparing former vassals like the Baltics to USA states must make note that there were historical entities overlapping language cultures in those lands.  Latvia was and is perceived as a nation persisting even under tutelage of empire or supreme soviet. This is what the Granite State lacks: persistent native nationality. This is why comparisons are tricky for any kind of -exit analogy in argument. Of all American territory, the ripest for separation is Puerto Rico, and yet ... the dependency and mutual citizenship of the status quo is most compelling to date, survey says. On this evidence, Under the Dome of America is where most US citizens want to remain, by my reckoning.

A more fruitful discussion might be had regarding an '-exit' by America from under other domes, starting with NAFTA. How likely is it that continental integration will continue, in energy, in finance, in investment, in trade, in mobility of labour? Will America 'withdraw' itself under a Smaller Dome?  Against the likelihood that the Granite State will retreat under its own separate dome?

b9f891995142755d3519dbf74714309417464a99

Edited by william.scherk
One more reason for chagrin (euro) ; added cautions on analogy, comparison, mentioned a retreat to the Dome; added image

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The are no force field domes.  There are, however, laws.  Right now it is legally impossible for New Hampshire to secede on its own initiative.  It is against the law.  See White v Texas.  

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15 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

The are no force field domes.

My metaphor stands corrected.  The proper analogy is umbrella.

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23 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

The Courts have ruled secession is illegal.  

They also ruled that black folks were not allowed to ever become citizens and that you have to speak in order to have a recognized right to remain silent.  

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That was a great post William.  Yep it will be harder for us to get independence than it was for Latvia; on the other hand it's already easier to get freedom since we already have more of it than them....maybe even more than Estonia.    Part of the reason it's still worth doing is that an NH independence drive doesn't have to achieve independence...taking even a baby step in that direction or getting publicity triggers self-contained benefits.   The publicity we're getting, for example, should tend to spark more liberty-migration here. 

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38 minutes ago, RidleyReport said:

They also ruled that black folks were not allowed to ever become citizens and that you have to speak in order to have a recognized right to remain silent.  

The was changed by the 14 th and 15 th amendments.  Otherwise Tanney's decision would have stood under stare decisis. 

The court acts according to the Constitution or something approximating that. 

White v Texas still stands.

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22 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

The court acts according to the Constitution or something approximating that. 

 

Well the could have fooled me.  You too, I bet.  Why should either of us or any state have to live under their rule?

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15 hours ago, RidleyReport said:

Why should either of us or any state have to live under their rule?

What you're trying and failing to seek as a collective can already be achieved individually.

In America today it is possible to enjoy personal independence even if no one else does. This is how America was designed to operate for individual Americans by the Founding Fathers. The American form of government was designed to work for the decent... but only for the decent. It won't work for anyone who does not live by American values.

Simple as that. :)

 

Greg

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1 hour ago, moralist said:

What you're trying and failing to seek as a collective can already be achieved individually.

In America today it is possible to enjoy personal independence even if no one else does. This is how America was designed to operate for individual Americans by the Founding Fathers. The American form of government was designed to work for the decent... but only for the decent. It won't work for anyone who does not live by American values.

Simple as that. :)

 

Greg

Slavery was an American value until 1865.....

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2 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Slavery was an American value until 1865.....

Hey stupid... what about

In America Today...

 ...don't you understand! :lol:

Your liberal government education left your head stuck up your past.

 

Greg

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2 hours ago, moralist said:

Hey stupid... what about

 ...don't you understand! :lol:

Your liberal government education left your head stuck up your past.

 

Greg

are there any "American" values in America today?  

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2 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

are there any "American" values in America today?  

Yes... and the fact you would even have to ask says that you don't live by them, Bob.

They are flourishing within the independent Americans who live by them.   :)

Greg

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1 hour ago, moralist said:

Yes... and the fact you would even have to ask says that you don't live by them, Bob.

They are flourishing within the independent Americans who live by them.   :)

Greg

No  doubt.  Full of the vision and patriotism that flourished before 1865.  After reconstruction the original Federal System gave way to centralized national government.  Following Lincoln's administration the U.S. was well on its we to becoming the corporate fascist state it is today.  So if you are talking about great old American values  you are definitely reaching back to pre-Lincoln times. When slavery flourished. 

You might find it useful to study American history sometime. 

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Slavery isn't flourishing today--right here in the USA?

--Brant

not in the formal, legal sense but that's not the only sense

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6 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

No  doubt.  Full of the vision and patriotism that flourished before 1865.  After reconstruction the original Federal System gave way to centralized national government.  Following Lincoln's administration the U.S. was well on its we to becoming the corporate fascist state it is today.  So if you are talking about great old American values  you are definitely reaching back to pre-Lincoln times. When slavery flourished. 

You might find it useful to study American history sometime. 

 

I don't live in the dead past like you do, Bob. That's a curse of liberal government educated intellectuals.

I live in the present where American values are alive and well in the Americans who live by them. You don't see any American values today because you don't live by them. It's the parasitic relationship to your liberal benefits dispensing government which grants it the right to be the tormentor you deserve.

You can define your slavery to the government by your need of it.

Greg

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6 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Slavery isn't flourishing today--right here in the USA?

Almost everyone in America is a slave to their own debts. Self inflicted stupidity.

Greg

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