Hunger: Not Always What it Seems -- Loren Lockman

[jts]

Loren Lockman supervises fasts. It seems from time to time he gets the fasters together and gives them an educational talk. You can get these talks on his youtube channel. Here he talks about what hunger is and what hunger is not.

0:30  Hunger is not felt in the belly.

1:00  He explains what those sensations in the belly mean.

4:20  He says symptoms are almost always evidence that the body is cleansing or healing. [ Be careful about accepting this statement as correct. Loren Lockman is more a risk taker than Alan Goldhamer.  Where Goldhamer would terminate a fast to avoid risk, Lockman might continue the fast to complete the healing.  Where Goldhamer would see a symptom as a real problem, Lockman might see the same symptom as cleansing or healing. ]

4:40  He mentions a poet who wrote something about fasting. "hidden sweetness in the stomach's emptiness" 

6:10  He had a conversation about hunger.

7:15  He describes a scientific study: food vs water.

7:50  He explains the similarity between hunger and thirst.

8:10  He says we are designed to get most of our water from food. [ He eats a lot of fruit. ]

9:30  He started fasting 20 years ago; he fasted 2+ years of his life cumulatively; he ate a raw vegan fruit based diet for 22+ years. He is virtually never hungry. If he goes a day without food, he is still not hungry.

10:33  Back to the former theme that symptoms are not hunger.

11:20  Question from an audience member. Is it true that most people never experienced hunger? [ Dr. Herbert Shelton (who supervised 40,000 fasts) says YES. ] Lockman says 'many' people instead of 'most' people.

11:55  Another question from the audience. About stomach shrinking. Stomach is fist size to begin with. Doesn't need to shrink. Has amazing ability to expand.

12:30  He talks about smoothies. Thumbs down on smoothies.

13:05  Long distance running (needing more calories). That much physical activity probably not good for health. Animals don't exercise that way and do fine without.

 

[william.scherk]

Poor guy looks like he is sick and starving. He looks worse in every video. Somebody should make him a sandwich.

[jts]

This lecture has little or nothing to do with hunger as Loren Lockman counts hunger but it's about the way most people eat, to fill the stomach.

I will save you 1 hr 20 min of listening. The whole lecture is about 2 rules:

Rule 1:  The key number to remember is 550. Why 550? If you eat to fill the stomach (whatever that means, because the stomach starts small and then stretches), then on average you should eat food that averages 550 calories per pound. The number can be adjusted to your activity. If you are physically active, you can increase the number to 600 or 650 or 700 and eat foods of more calorie density. If you are sedentary, you should decrease the number to 500 or 450 or 400 and eat foods of less calorie density.

Rule 2:  Eat foods of lower calorie density first. That way you don't have enough room in your stomach to eat too much foods of high calorie density.

Now you know the main points of the entire 1 hr and 20 min. The rest is details that you can figure out for yourself with a few numbers and a little simple math, and you don't need to bother listening to the video. But here it is anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CdwWliv7Hg

This is what the video is about.

[william.scherk]

-- the man's name is Jeff Novick, and he has a useful website, JeffNovick.com, which includes his CV. It is extremely impressive, compared to ''Starve in the Jungle!" Loren Lockman, whose expertise is in his mind.  The only quacktasticky connection is with Dr McDougall, he of the Starch, Starcher, Starchest! line of food flummery. See, for example, My Escape from Vegan Island ...

Highlights from the Novick CV:

 Florida State Medical Board, Licensed Dietitian/Nutritionist, 1998 – Present

Indiana State University, Terre Haute, Indiana
Masters of Science Degree in Food and Nutrition, August 2000
Bachelor of Science Degree in Dietetics (Minor in Exercise Physiology), May 1995

Territory Manager, (June 1985 - November 1988)
Kraft Foods, Noblesville, Indiana
* Established, penetrated and managed all foodservice related business in central Illinois
* Increased weekly sales volume 75% from ~$20,000 to $35,000.
* Awarded Kraft Most Valuable Territory Manager 1986

Clinical Dietetics Instructor, (August 1995 - December, 1997)
Indiana State University, Terre Haute, Indiana
* Supervised and instructed the senior undergraduate and graduate dietetics
 students during their hospital internship
* Responsible for reviewing and assessing student performance during patient
 assessment, evaluation, and education of hospital patients
Health Educator and Nutrition Counselor, (July 1987 - December, 1995)
Center For Wholism, Bloomington, Indiana & Terre Haute, Indiana
Nutritional Health Research Institute, Urbana, Illinois
* Developed personal nutrition, fitness and stress management programs for a wide variety
of clients
* Authored monthly nutrition column for community newsletter
* Established and facilitated 3 community-based health and nutrition resource groups
* Instructed classes, seminars, and groups in nutrition, fitness, stress- management, menu
planning and cooking

Director of Nutrition, (February 1998 – November 2007)
Pritikin Longevity Center, Aventura, Florida
* Instruct classes, groups, and individuals in the prevention, management and reversal
 of disease through nutrition and lifestyle modification
* Organize and coordinate programming between various educational departments.
* Created and updated all medical and nutrition lectures

Nutritionist/Dietitian (January 2008 - Present)
The McDougall Program, Santa Rosa, California
* Instruct classes, groups, and individuals in the prevention, management and reversal
 of disease through nutrition and lifestyle modification
* Created and updated all nutrition lectures
* Facilitate and moderate an online support group forum
Nutrition Lecturer (March 2010 - Present)
The Engine 2 Program, Santa Rosa, California
* Instruct classes, groups, and individuals in the prevention, management and reversal
 of disease through nutrition and lifestyle modification
* Created and updated all nutrition lectures

Jeffrey S. Novick, MS, RD, LD, LN

Edited March 16, 2017 by william.scherk

[jts]

Jeff Novick is associated with vegsource, which is a snakepit of quacks, as most people would call them. This association disqualifies him according to conventional reasoning. He is associated with "Starve at TrueNorth!" Alan Goldhamer.

I hold to the view that a statement is true or false according to whether it is true or false, not according to whether it is generally accepted or approved by government or approved by authority.

Loren Lockman and Alan Goldhamer have different styles but neither believes in starvation.

Fasting is a subject that most people know little or nothing about but that doesn't stop them from having an opinion about it. Most people in most well fed countries probably never went without food for more than a few hours or a day or 2 and maybe they think they can extrapolate and draw conclusions about 30 or 40 days and they think that is "extreme" or "starvation". The truth is there is a transition time from eating mode to fasting mode of typically 1 to 3 days. Most people never went past this transition time and therefore are likely to draw false conclusions about fasting from their experience.

Fasting is not starving and starving is not fasting. Any doctor who says otherwise is ignorant.

 

[jts]

In the video at the top of this thread, Loren Lockman says hunger is a tickling sensation in the throat. Is that true?

 

[Brant Gaede]

Maybe it's not the stomach but the gut below talking to the mind. In the gut live trillions of bacteria. What do they want to eat?

--Brant

[jts]

Another one from Loren Lockman about hunger.

 

 

[jts]

An older one. Seems he is saying "hunger" (so-called, with quotes) means don't eat.

 

 

[Jules Troy]

Man that guy looks like  holocaust survivor..you actually take his advice seriously?

[jts]

10 minutes ago, Jules Troy said:

Man that guy looks like  holocaust survivor..you actually take his advice seriously?

Practise the Objectivist virtue of intellectual independence. Do not believe what he or anyone else says on authority. Consider his reasoning. Do you disagree with his reasoning?

His slender body is probably what you should expect from:

--  his mostly fruit diet, a salad twice a week, no cooked food, no animal source food, about half the normal calories

--  his ideas about exercise, animals usually don't exercise

But he says he can run faster than any of his students, even tho he is getting a little up in years.

His diet seems similar to the diet of T C Fry who died at 69 (if I remember right) of protein deficiency. Vetrano wrote a book about the death of T C Fry. The autopsy showed that T C Fry died of protein deficiency.

A young woman who followed Fry's diet ideas had health problems. Vetrano diagnosed the case as pure protein deficiency, no other problem, which is rare. Vetrano told her to eat a handful of nuts each day, in addition to the Fry diet. In three weeks all her health problems were gone.

There are other diet "gurus" (or whatever you call them) who have similar ideas about hunger but include more kinds of foods in their diet.

 

[Jules Troy]

I enjoyed that as I ate a slice of pizza.

[jts]

I'm going to question something Loren Lockman said in the videos, maybe even disagree. Not only Loren Lockman but also Joel Fuhrman and Herbert Shelton and all those guys with the theory of what Joel Fuhrman calls 'toxic hunger'. I'm going to assume you listened to the videos. If you didn't, you might want to go back in this thread and listen to them to understand the theory. He explained a 'false hunger' caused by detox. You don't eat for a bit, the body takes the opportunity to step up the rate of detox, then most people take the symptoms of detox as hunger. This is what Joel Fuhrman calls 'toxic hunger'.

There is something confusing about this theory. After 2 - 4 days, or an average of 3 days, hunger (real or false) goes away but the detox continues and even gets more intense. Why does the detox not create this false hunger after a few days? Why does 'toxic hunger' go away even when the detox gets more intense?

Some years ago I posed a question like this on a forum with experts on fasting, but got no answer that I found satisfactory.

Shelton seems to think that the fact that 'hunger' goes away is evidence that it was not hunger. His view seems to have some rationality to it. Why would a need for food go away upon continued not eating?

 At the risk of practising the Objectivist virtue of intellectual independence, I will offer a hypothesis that strongly suggests itself.

There is a transition time from eating mode to fasting mode. For people who are pampered by modern living, this transition takes an average of 3 days. Our ancient ancestors tens of thousands of years ago who were not pampered by modern living probably made the transition from eating mode to fasting mode almost instantly. People who are in practice make the transition quicker. Apparently the body can be trained to fast, so the transition time is almost instant. People who take 3 days are out of practise.

What happens during the transition time from eating mode to fasting mode? You are burning muscle! When you are in full fasting mode, you are burning fat. When you are burning muscle you are hungry The body does not want to have to burn muscle so it calls for food.. When you are burning only fat and no significant amount of muscle, you are not hungry. This is why you get hungry for a bit and then hunger quits. Very simple and very obvious. But if you are in practise, the body is trained to make the transition almost instantly.

Dr. Alex Burton said he does not favor short fasts. A series of short fasts puts much more stress on the body than one long fast. Make the transition once and stay there.

 

[BaalChatzaf]

Healthy hunger, after moderate intake  should not feel like anything.  You should not leave the table feeling weak or dizzy and you should not leave the table feeling stuffed up to your ears.   I am on a low carb diet  and I feel just fine.  No weakness, no dizziness, no pangs  and no overstuffed feeling either.  I have dropped 22 pounds in the last six weeks (mostly water weight) and I am losing about  a half pound a week  by not overeating and going to the gym every day or almost every day.  I exercise about an hour and half  and burn  400 calories by a combination of aerobic  and weight exercise.   I expect to be at my target weight  by next June  and I will have no trouble staying there.   I have said my fond farewell to bread, cookies, cake and bananas.   The only part of the potato I eat is the skin and no more white rice, just a moderate portion of brown rice.  Once at the target I will balance calories in  with calories burned  and no carbohydrates (or very little carbohydrates).

 

[jts]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Healthy hunger, after moderate intake  should not feel like anything.  You should not leave the table feeling weak or dizzy and you should not leave the table feeling stuffed up to your ears.   I am on a low carb diet  and I feel just fine.  No weakness, no dizziness, no pangs  and no overstuffed feeling either.  I have dropped 22 pounds in the last six weeks (mostly water weight) and I am losing about  a half pound a week  by not overeating and going to the gym every day or almost every day.  I exercise about an hour and half  and burn  400 calories by a combination of aerobic  and weight exercise.   I expect to be at my target weight  by next June  and I will have no trouble staying there.   I have said my fond farewell to bread, cookies, cake and bananas.   The only part of the potato I eat is the skin and no more white rice, just a moderate portion of brown rice.  Once at the target I will balance calories in  with calories burned  and no carbohydrates (or very little carbohydrates).

 

I am surprised. I didn't think you of all people would have a weight problem. And how did you get the idea that we were talking about weight control?

A healthy person can go without food for days or weeks without being weak or dizzy. Fasting is a truth revealer that reveals weaknesses that are not normally apparent.

I eat anything I want (some things I don't want) as much as I want any time I want without putting on lard. My diet is high carb. I have no great interest in weight control and I tend to be bored by the subject. My interest in fasting has nothing to do with weight control.

I can understand why you might go for low carb if you have a problem with carbs. But a truly healthy person has no problem with carbs and has no need of such an extreme and abnormal dietary restriction.

 

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, jts said:

I am surprised. I didn't think you of all people would have a weight problem. And how did you get the idea that we were talking about weight control?

A healthy person can go without food for days or weeks without being weak or dizzy. Fasting is a truth revealer that reveals weaknesses that are not normally apparent.

I eat anything I want (some things I don't want) as much as I want any time I want without putting on lard. My diet is high carb. I have no great interest in weight control and I tend to be bored by the subject. My interest in fasting has nothing to do with weight control.

I can understand why you might go for low carb if you have a problem with carbs. But a truly healthy person has no problem with carbs and has no need of such an extreme and abnormal dietary restriction.

 

I am just trimming a bit.  I started a low carb diet. It seems to be working.  Now I can get to my optimal weight.  I am not grossly overweight,  but I am carrying more pounds than I wish to carry.  So far my cardiohealth is good.  I have a resting pulse of 48 bpm  and I can ride 20-40 miles on my bike w.o. stopping to rest.  Not bad for an 82 year old codger.