How to be a prime mover

[SteveWolfer]

6 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

There is no self standing volition apart from some kind of physical substrate.

What gives that statement a kind of religious, dogmatic quality, is not just that one can ask how can you say YOU are thinking, YOU are choosing how to reply to a post, and not your substrate, but it the adamant, unyielding assertion that there is no volition which is like saying, "there is no mouse in the house... prove me wrong!"

[SteveWolfer]

25 minutes ago, anthony said:

What do you make of 'neural-mapping' of neuroscience

I'm not familiar, or up to date on what is going on in neuroscience. 

I see psychology (assuming it gets its act together a bit better) moving towards a better understanding what mediates behavior.  Right now it is often either metaphorical references, like much of Freudian theory, or broad strokes like we see in today's Cognitive descriptions of motivation.  But I think that with attempts at AI in software, they will model psychology in ways that talk about subconscious subroutines... and in doing so dig deeper and deeper.  (Large software programs are made of many smaller routines and they have still smaller subroutines, and so forth).  The AI subroutines ought to be useful models for psychologists (having done both psychology and software, I can appreciate the way each illuminates the other).

And starting at the other end, at the neuroscience end, they will be attempting to understand how this or that pattern of electrochemical activity connects to the lowest levels of cognitive activity described in psychology (the most primitive of the AI subroutines).  Like building a bridge by starting at each side and working towards the middle.  But I think the middle is much farther away then both sides imagine - we still know less than we think we do.

[SteveWolfer]

37 minutes ago, anthony said:

"An act of consciousness", a N. Branden phrasing I believe, a process regularly and instantly performed by dint of will alone and found powerfully effective will definitely endorse self-efficacy and therefore self esteem

 

I agree with what you're saying, but just wanted to point out that the willed consciousness - the act of focusing - does make one more effective (reason being the best way to formulate approaches), and it will also increase self-esteem.  But it is doing those things somewhat separately.  Let's say a person exercises their reason in putting together a plan, but the plan fails.  If that person was diligent in willing their consciousness and focusing, they will get an increase in self-esteem even though chance or circumstances or even an honest error in reasoning did not favor them with success in implementing the plan.  The self-esteem is like an always on duty monitor and score keeper who pays no attention to how things are working out in the external world, and only pays attention to how the consciousness is being used.  "Was that an act of focusing, or avoiding?"  "Was that intention/choice/act in line with values or not? (integrity)"  And so forth.

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said:

Next time your cell phone rings don't answer it.  It's only radio frequencies...

I have a Secret Decoder Ring  built in....

[KorbenDallas]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

I have a Secret Decoder Ring  built in....

My inner Yoda is saying, "Ba'al? A soul, yes, he has." 

 

[SteveWolfer]

2 hours ago, KorbenDallas said:

A soul, yes, he has

But, Yoda-Korben, its a soul made of photons!

[atlashead]

I added another thing: perpetual tapping.  Tap your body perpetually

[BaalChatzaf]

On 7/13/2016 at 1:43 PM, SteveWolfer said:

What gives that statement a kind of religious, dogmatic quality, is not just that one can ask how can you say YOU are thinking, YOU are choosing how to reply to a post, and not your substrate, but it the adamant, unyielding assertion that there is no volition which is like saying, "there is no mouse in the house... prove me wrong!"

All there is is matter and energy existing in space-time.  Every last thing about  the universe is physical.

 

[Peter]

8 hours ago, atlashead said:

I added another thing: perpetual tapping.  Tap your body perpetually

A water wheel is fun to watch for a while.

[BaalChatzaf]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:33 AM, atlashead said:

I added another thing: perpetual tapping.  Tap your body perpetually

For about 80 to 100 years if you are lucky.....

 

[BaalChatzaf]

On 7/13/2016 at 1:43 PM, SteveWolfer said:

What gives that statement a kind of religious, dogmatic quality, is not just that one can ask how can you say YOU are thinking, YOU are choosing how to reply to a post, and not your substrate, but it the adamant, unyielding assertion that there is no volition which is like saying, "there is no mouse in the house... prove me wrong!"

There is no physical evidence to the contrary.  No supernatural entity has ever been found in a human body.  It is all energy and entropy.

 

[BaalChatzaf]

On 5/7/2016 at 10:50 PM, anthony said:

Geez, a post written by chemical processes. What a breakthrough for science. Can I order a framed copy?

you already are a framed copy....

 

[BaalChatzaf]

On 5/8/2016 at 2:05 PM, Mikee said:

My god Bob.  You are obsessed with the world of lifeless physical phenomenon which obey the laws of motion only and ignore the world of the living.  Perhaps because you are too close to a lifeless state yourself?

Christopher Reeves, so long as he was alive, retained the will to live and had the means to direct others to move his limbs on a daily basis in physical therapy, hoping for an eventual cure for his paralysis.  He probably got more exercise in a day than most people do.

Did it ever occur to you to wonder what purpose the original poster of this thread had in starting it?  Do you imagine it was so he could get a lesson in Physics 101 and the impotence of philosophy?

Lifeless????  Life is a physical process,,  every last little bit of it.  You, I and everyone else is an ATP  fueled   organic machine.

[Peter]

6 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

There is no physical evidence to the contrary.  No supernatural entity has ever been found in a human body.  It is all energy and entropy.

 

Remember the Movie with a capital M called "On the Beach"? After nuclear destruction the last remaining humans investigate a signal coming over the air and it turns out to be a coke bottle caught in a window shade, and the wind is moving the bottle which is tapping out a nonsensical message. If we hear something from space how will we know it makes sense?

[BaalChatzaf]

17 hours ago, Peter said:

Remember the Movie with a capital M called "On the Beach"? After nuclear destruction the last remaining humans investigate a signal coming over the air and it turns out to be a coke bottle caught in a window shade, and the wind is moving the bottle which is tapping out a nonsensical message. If we hear something from space how will we know it makes sense?

A long series of prime numbers.  No known natural process can produce this and a long series of primes is very highly improbable as a random sequence.   See the movie  "Contact"  with Jodie Foster.

 

[anthony]

On 5/26/2018 at 4:30 PM, BaalChatzaf said:

you already are a framed copy....

 

Nice one!

[Peter]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:23 AM, BaalChatzaf said:

A long series of prime numbers.  No known natural process can produce this and a long series of primes is very highly improbable as a random sequence.   See the movie  "Contact"  with Jodie Foster.

 

“Contact” is one of my favorites. After the prime numbers establish in the ET” minds, sentience and learning, what information would you send them? I would want to know everything about them. And I would not divulge anything about global wars, politics or philosophy other than to say I abide by the non-initiation of force theory.

Peter

[BaalChatzaf]

3 hours ago, Peter said:

“Contact” is one of my favorites. After the prime numbers establish in the ET” minds, sentience and learning, what information would you send them? I would want to know everything about them. And I would not divulge anything about global wars, politics or philosophy other than to say I abide by the non-initiation of force theory.

 

 

Peter

 

 

These are question of policy, not of existence.  If I received a long string of primes  from no source in the solar system, I would conclude that something intelligent sent them.  How to react to that?  That would be for governments and science organizations to decide.  As to the existence of an intelligent sender, I believe there would be little doubt.

 

[Brant Gaede]

5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

These are question of policy, not of existence.  If I received a long string of primes  from no source in the solar system, I would conclude that something intelligent sent them.  How to react to that?  That would be for governments and science organizations to decide.  As to the existence of an intelligent sender, I believe there would be little doubt.

The State Science Institute?

--Brant

[Peter]

Hollywood on alien life and stuff grown at home.

From “E.T." “E.T. phone home"

From ‘The Terminator.” “I’ll be back.”

From “The Empire Strikes Back.” “Do . . . or do not. There is no try.”

From “Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.” Obi-Wan Kenobi: "In my experience, there is no such thing as luck."

From “Doctor Who.” “Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you’re busy. In which case, always ignore a coincidence.”

From “Star Trek The Next Generation.” Jean Luc Picard: "If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are."

From “Star Trek The Next Generation.” Jean Luc Picard: "Time is a companion that goes with us on a journey. It reminds us to cherish each moment, because it will never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we have lived."

From “Jurassic Park 2015. Claire: We have learnt more in the past year from genetics, than a century of digging up bones! A whole new frontier has opened up! We have our first genetically modified hybrid!   Owen: You just went and made a new dinosaur? Probably not a good idea.

From “Jurassic Park 1993. John Hammond: All major theme parks have had delays. When they opened Disneyland in 1956, nothing worked, nothing.   Ian Malcolm: But, John, if the Pirates of the Caribbean breaks down, the pirates don't eat the tourists.

From “The Hunger Games: Mockingjay - Part 1” (2014) President Alma Coin: Any other demands? Katniss Everdeen: My sister gets to keep her cat.

Theme song from, “You Only Live Twice,” You Only Live Twice or so it seems, One life for yourself and one for your dreams. You drift through the years and life seems tame, Till one dream appears and love is its name. And love is a stranger who'll beckon you on, Don't think of the danger or the stranger is gone. This dream is for you, so pay the price. Make one dream come true, you only live twice. And love is a stranger who'll beckon you on, Don't think of the danger or the stranger is gone. end quote

From “V for Vendetta” (2005) Evey: My father used to tell me that artists use lies to tell the truth while politicians use them to cover the truth up.   V: A man after my own heart.

From “Soylent Green.” "Soylent Green is people!"

Will we be compelled to answer that “hello” from far, far away? Promise me, we won’t send them any of our movies.

Peter  

[Peter]

Robert Tracinski wrote about Star Trek: . . . .  No Media Frenzy. There's no Twitter in the Star Trek universe and no Facebook. People aren't glued to their devices all the time waiting for the latest news updates or celebrity gossip--thank goodness.

It is certainly true that there are whole parts of life Star Trek deliberately omits for dramatic reasons. For example, it's pretty clear that the Federation is not a dictatorship--but we never hear about elections, and the crew never debates politics. We get to see some of the internal political wrangling among the Federation's competitors, and the politics of the Klingon High Council intrude pretty frequently into "The Next Generation." But the Federation's own politics are opaque.

Economics is also pretty much absent from the Star Trek universe. This is sometimes a bit embarrassing, as in the (fortunately infrequent) references to the idea that the Federation no longer uses money, which is definitely science fiction--with an emphasis on the "fiction"--from the standpoint of the science of economics.

Both of those omissions are corrected a bit in the later spinoffs, especially in "Deep Space Nine," where Quark's bar is the thriving commercial hub of the space station, and Commander Sisko and his crew get swept up in Federation galactopolitics. But they're not a defining feature of the Star Trek universe. end quote

 

[Peter]

Some lines from the movie, “The Day the earth Stood Still”

Bit Man: They're here! They're here! They've landed! Over on the mall! They've landed!

American Radar Operator: Holy Mackerel! Call headquarters. Get the lieutenant.

Army physician: I don't know whether to get drunk or quit the practice of medicine.

Later in the movie.

Klaatu: You have faith, Professor Barnhardt?

Barnhardt: It isn't faith that makes good science, Mr. Klaatu, it's curiosity. Sit down, please. There are several thousand questions I'd like to ask you.

Klaatu: Gort: Barenga! Gort! Deglet ovrosco! We have come to visit you in peace and with goodwill.

Klaatu: I am fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason.

Army physician: Their life expectancy is a hundred and thirty. [Army physician offers Medical Corps Major a cigarette]

Medical Corps Major: [Major takes cigarette] How does he explain that?

The character Klaatu’s parting words from “The Day the earth Stood Still”

I am leaving soon, and you will forgive me if I speak bluntly. The universe grows smaller every day, and the threat of aggression by any group, anywhere, can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all, or no one is secure. Now, this does not mean giving up any freedom, except the freedom to act irresponsibly. Your ancestors knew this when they made laws to govern themselves and hired policemen to enforce them. We, of the other planets, have long accepted this principle. We have an organization for the mutual protection of all planets and for the complete elimination of aggression. The test of any such higher authority is, of course, the police force that supports it. For our policemen, we created a race of robots. Their function is to patrol the planets in spaceships like this one and preserve the peace. In matters of aggression, we have given them absolute power over us. This power cannot be revoked. At the first sign of violence, they act automatically against the aggressor. The penalty for provoking their action is too terrible to risk. The result is, we live in peace, without arms or armies, secure in the knowledge that we are free from aggression and war. Free to pursue more... profitable enterprises. Now, we do not pretend to have achieved perfection, but we do have a system, and it works. I came here to give you these facts. It is no concern of ours how you run your own planet, but if you threaten to extend your violence, this Earth of yours will be reduced to a burned-out cinder. Your choice is simple: join us and live in peace, or pursue your present course and face obliteration. We shall be waiting for your answer. The decision rests with you. end quote

[BaalChatzaf]

13 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

The State Science Institute?

--Brant

What  would you recommend?.  At the very least I would recommend trying to find out how and why we received a long string of primes from Way Out There.

 

[Peter]

Ba’al wrote: As to the existence of an intelligent sender, I believe there would be little doubt. end quote

Little doubt about who they are, . . . that they exist . . . or that they exist at all, Ba’al? You want me to believe you know something I don’t know?

"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." --- 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Because ‘til now in 2018 this is a hypothetical or fictional scenario. It would be more exciting to put yourself into the drama. Wing it, Ba’al! And everyone else reading this emergency broadcast consider the following scenario.

We receive (or send) a message from (or to the) beyond, containing a string of numbers. But how would intelligent beings far, far away know any sentient beings who will receive their message would understand?

Backtrack. Scene one. A broadcast is received containing a string of numbers, perhaps tapped out. One. One two. One two three. One two three four. And along with the taps, what would be instantly recognizable to humans? Sentient aliens don’t know us (or we them) though they might have picked up errant radio and TV broadcasts from earth. Or they may have noticed the result of nuclear tests or scientific experiments. Would accompanying MUSIC be a good, added feature of their (or our) message? Would our added human speech cinch the deal with the aliens?

Of course if “they” would just come here a lot more would be revealed as in the movie, “The Day the Earth Stood Still,” which starred Michael Rennie, (fans of Rand favorite) Patricia Neal, Sam Jaffe, and Frances Bavier, who played Aunt Bea on “Mayberry RFD.”

IF we did hear . . . something . . . would it mean panic in the streets? I remember a previous thread suggested we should never advertise our presence or answer any alien enquiries. But wouldn’t you have to?  

Peter 

[BaalChatzaf]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

Ba’al wrote: As to the existence of an intelligent sender, I believe there would be little doubt. end quote

 

 

Little doubt about who they are, . . . that they exist . . . or that they exist at all, Ba’al? You want me to believe you know something I don’t know?

 

 

"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." --- 2001: A Space Odyssey.

 

 

Because ‘til now in 2018 this is a hypothetical or fictional scenario. It would be more exciting to put yourself into the drama. Wing it, Ba’al! And everyone else reading this emergency broadcast consider the following scenario.

 

 

We receive (or send) a message from (or to the) beyond, containing a string of numbers. But how would intelligent beings far, far away know any sentient beings who will receive their message would understand?

 

 

Backtrack. Scene one. A broadcast is received containing a string of numbers, perhaps tapped out. One. One two. One two three. One two three four. And along with the taps, what would be instantly recognizable to humans? Sentient aliens don’t know us (or we them) though they might have picked up errant radio and TV broadcasts from earth. Or they may have noticed the result of nuclear tests or scientific experiments. Would accompanying MUSIC be a good, added feature of their (or our) message? Would our added human speech cinch the deal with the aliens?

 

 

Of course if “they” would just come here a lot more would be revealed as in the movie, “The Day the Earth Stood Still,” which starred Michael Rennie, (fans of Rand favorite) Patricia Neal, Sam Jaffe, and Frances Bavier, who played Aunt Bea on “Mayberry RFD.”

 

 

IF we did hear . . . something . . . would it mean panic in the streets? I remember a previous thread suggested we should never advertise our presence or answer any alien enquiries. But wouldn’t you have to?  

 

 

Peter 

quote me correctly please.  I said if we received a long stream of prime numbers from no place in the Solar System there would be little doubt that it was transmitted by an intelligent source.  No known natural process puts out prime numbers and nothing else.