Interest as Cost of Immediacy

[merjet]

http://merjet46.blogspot.com/2016/04/interest-as-cost-of-immediacy.html

[Guyau]

.

Merlin, delighted to see your blog Correspondence and Coherence.^$

 

 

[merjet]

Thank you, Stephen.

Two more recent entries:

http://merjet46.blogspot.com/2016/04/two-worlds-at-once.html

http://merjet46.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-is-ought-problem.html

[BaalChatzaf]

36 minutes ago, merjet said:

Thank you, Stephen.

Two more recent entries:

http://merjet46.blogspot.com/2016/04/two-worlds-at-once.html

http://merjet46.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-is-ought-problem.html

Is/Ought   I have pointed out in prior postings that morality does not at all flow from physical laws or physical states or physical properties.

Morality is Stuff We Make Up.  The Real reality  is all the matter and energy that flows in the space-time manifold plus the space-time manifold itself.  Time is real, space is real, matter is real and energy and entropy are real.  Everything else is stuff made up by temporary ensembles of matter and energy,  that is to say stuff made up by sentient beings.

[Guyau]

.

Bob, computers and automobiles are made up by human beings, yet that does not make them unreal. We organisms are emergent, and in the emergence and in our daily existence, we are conforming to the principles of physics, but to additional principles of engineering as well. Engineering principles are for success in functions, for avoidance of failures in functions. Things with performance, things with functions and failure modes, are real and their engineering principles are of reality. An ethics that includes prescriptions for the maintenance of life is in that part of the ethics a case of engineering principles for the perfectly real things that are us and our lives.

Give that slumbering Hume a shake. Wake him up to full physical reality.

[Brant Gaede]

54 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Is/Ought   I have pointed out in prior postings that morality does not at all flow from physical laws or physical states or physical properties.

Morality is Stuff We Make Up.  The Real reality  is all the matter and energy that flows in the space-time manifold plus the space-time manifold itself.  Time is real, space is real, matter is real and energy and entropy are real.  Everything else is stuff made up by temporary ensembles of matter and energy,  that is to say stuff made up by sentient beings.

You're just talking about things and abstractions of things and abstractions of abstractions. Without abstractions you couldn't have said anything about anything. If we couldn't abstract we couldn't be human. Instead of celebrating that you dump on it--continually. Not explicitly; you beat around and dance around the bush in some kind of Aspie fervor.

Regardless, morality does flow from physical laws, states or properties because it flows out of the physicality of working brains. All abstractions do. You are merely looking at or experiencing the (real) results and saying they aren't real because if every person on earth were to suddenly drop dead all the abstractions would disappear. But they WERE real. They HAD been real. Take a thought. Here it is. There it was. Write it down. Now it's real in two ways. Etc.

Abstractions are matter changing form then matter changing again.

The only proper and important differentiation is abstractions which correlate with reality and those that do not.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

You're just talking about things and abstractions of things and abstractions of abstractions. Without abstractions you couldn't have said anything about anything. If we couldn't abstract we couldn't be human. Instead of celebrating that you dump on it--continually. Not explicitly; you beat around and dance around the bush in some kind of Aspie fervor.

Regardless, morality does flow from physical laws, states or properties because it flows out of the physicality of working brains. All abstractions do. You are merely looking at or experiencing the (real) results and saying they aren't real because if every person on earth were to suddenly drop dead all the abstractions would disappear. But they WERE real. They HAD been real. Take a thought. Here it is. There it was. Write it down. Now it's real in two ways. Etc.

Abstractions are matter changing form then matter changing again.

The only proper and important differentiation is abstractions which correlate with reality and those that do not.

--Brant

Stand in the hot sunlight for a spell and tell me that energy is not real.  Compare  yourself today to what you looked like when you were 3 years old.  Tell me that time is not real.  Move about and tell me that space is not real.

[Max]

5 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Regardless, morality does flow from physical laws, states or properties because it flows out of the physicality of working brains. All abstractions do.

In that sense every nonsensical statement also follows from physical laws, states or properties. That makes your statement rather meaningless. What Bob means is of course that you can't
 *derive* morality from physical laws, states or properties.

 

[Brant Gaede]

And what I meant was his observation was worth zip. He continually uses abstractions and philosophy to attack and denigrate abstractions and philosophy. This is just part of the same pattern. He pretends it's science or science based, but it's all tautological thinking, chasing its own tail, and I'm going to keep pointing it out.

I think you're right about the nonsensical statement and such. Thus, aside from pure nonsense we can get art, correctable wrong ideas and Einsteinian flights of fancy--not to mention Mad Magazine.

Bob is trying to say we can't get ought from is because is is physicality. All physicality is governed by laws because all is is dynamic. The ought comes from knowing what is going on with is as is with human beings and their nature and considering such ought ought to be (brought into existence). For instance, the creation of an individual rights philosophy put into state law. We oughta have it. We oughta get it. Why? To keep Donald Trump under control.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Stand in the hot sunlight for a spell and tell me that energy is not real.  Compare  yourself today to what you looked like when you were 3 years old.  Tell me that time is not real.  Move about and tell me that space is not real.

Energy is real. Time is a measure of motion. Space is a measure of distance. There is no space to be put into space. There are things. Energy is a thing. Our planet is a thing. There are varying temperatures and densities. Space-time is a pure abstraction. My existence at the age of three is only a thought. My existence right now is corporeal.

A table is a thing. "Table" is an abstraction. A man is a thing. "Man" is an abstraction. I didn't say energy was not real.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

3 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Energy is real. Time is a measure of motion. Space is a measure of distance. There is no space to be put into space. There are things. Energy is a thing. Our planet is a thing. There are varying temperatures and densities. Space-time is a pure abstraction. My existence at the age of three is only a thought. My existence right now is corporeal.

A table is a thing. "Table" is an abstraction. A man is a thing. "Man" is an abstraction. I didn't say energy was not real.

--Brant

In the General Theory of Relativity (which is very well supported by fact and experiment)  the space-time manifold is capable of being distorted by masses. The curvatures so induced in the manifold  constitute  gravitation,  not a force as in the Newtonian theory.  There is more than discrete distance involved, there is the metric tensor  which is defined over a locally compact set of events (points).  The correct functioning of the GPS system is heavy evidence in favor of the Einstein version  of space-time. 

[Brant Gaede]

39 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

In the General Theory of Relativity (which is very well supported by fact and experiment)  the space-time manifold is capable of being distorted by masses. The curvatures so induced in the manifold  constitute  gravitation,  not a force as in the Newtonian theory.  There is more than discrete distance involved, there is the metric tensor  which is defined over a locally compact set of events (points).  The correct functioning of the GPS system is heavy evidence in favor of the Einstein version  of space-time. 

The space-time manifold--it has energy; it has mass? How does what distort--uh, what? It sounds like a conceptual bridge.

I'm not trying to win this argument--at least not now. I may simply lack the necessary education.

It seems practical results may confirm a theory until they also confirm another theory or that theory modified. The practical results will still be there.

Time marches on--through space.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

11 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

The space-time manifold--it has energy; it has mass? How does what distort--uh, what? It sounds like a conceptual bridge.

I'm not trying to win this argument--at least not now. I may simply lack the necessary education.

It seems practical results may confirm a theory until they also confirm another theory or that theory modified. The practical results will still be there.

Time marches on--through space.

--Brant

 

All physical theories be they ever so accurate and ever so beautiful and nifty are subject to revision.  The history of physics tells us it is only a  matter for time before our technology becomes good enough to reveal something our theories do not handle well. You will see in the following  the Dark Energy and Dark Matter (so-called)  our place markers for our ignorance.

Apparent spacetime has energy or something like it.  This is what the physicists are called dark energy which is causing the expansion of our cosmos to happen at an accelerated pace.  Spacetime can expand.  Locally distances are preserved.  So spacetime has something like substantial properties.  It is not merely a bundle of distances.  So called Dark Energy is one of the challenges currently facing physics.   Dark Matter (so-called)  is another.  This is remniscent of the problems facing physics at the end of the 19 th century.   Black Body radiation was giving physicists fits.  Eventually quantum theory was invented to account for it.  Time IS Space or better  space and time are not separate things.  In that old days they said Space is what keeps everything happening in the same place and Time was there to prevent everything happening at once.  

It is pretty clear that our intuitive grasp of Space and our intuitive grasp of Time is not adequate to  discern the exact nature of Spacetime