What is a scientific law?

[BaalChatzaf]

Here is a good definition I found in

http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/intro/int-1.html#SEC3

Recall that a "law", in the context of science, is just a relationship, discovered through experimentation, that is sufficiently well established to be regarded as beyond question for most practical purposes. Because it is the nature of scientists to question the "unquestionable", it occasionally happens that exceptions do arise, in which case the law must undergo appropriate modification.

Several "laws"  have been outlawed.  One is the conservation of heat which Sadi Carnot assumed.  It turns out heat not conserved by energy is. What Carnot was actually talking about was entropy (discovered later on by Clausius and Kelvin)  and entropy is not conserved.  It continues to increase in all real non-reversible processes. 

Another "law" concerning the transmission of light, namely light is the wave vibration of aether and substance that fills all of space.  That was found out by Michelson and Morley   not to exist. 

[RobinReborn]

I would say a scientific law is an abstract principle which no known observations contradict.

[BaalChatzaf]

16 minutes ago, RobinReborn said:

I would say a scientific law is an abstract principle which no known observations contradict.

A good approximation.  A law must be very general and have many kinds of instances and applications.

[Roger Bissell]

And then there are the (proposed) laws making it a crime to disagree with "established science," such as the (bogus) theory of man-made climate change. Those two are "scientific laws," in a manner of speaking, and I find them much more troubling and worthy of concern than the kind being discussed here. But carry on...

REB

[BaalChatzaf]

4 hours ago, Roger Bissell said:

And then there are the (proposed) laws making it a crime to disagree with "established science," such as the (bogus) theory of man-made climate change. Those two are "scientific laws," in a manner of speaking, and I find them much more troubling and worthy of concern than the kind being discussed here. But carry on...

REB

Such a policy would be neo-Lysenkoism.

[Roger Bissell]

3 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

8 hours ago, Roger Bissell said:

And then there are the (proposed) laws making it a crime to disagree with "established science," such as the (bogus) theory of man-made climate change. Those two are "scientific laws," in a manner of speaking, and I find them much more troubling and worthy of concern than the kind being discussed here. But carry on...

REB

 

Such a policy would be neo-Lysenkoism.

 

Let's hope it stays "would be." There are some trying to make it "is."

REB

[Peter]

Truth or dare? In the preface to “How We Know,” Harry Binswanger wrote: Mankind has existed for 400,000 years but 395,000 of those years were consumed by the Stone Age. The factor that freed men from endless toil and early death, the root cause of the elevated level of existence we now take for granted, is one precious value: *knowledge.* The painfully acquired knowledge of how to master nature, how to organize social existence, and how to understand himself is what enabled man to rise from the cave to the skyscraper, from warring clans to a global economy, from an average lifespan of less than 30 years to one approaching 80. end quote

 

Part of reason is contextualism. Even a simply understood mental construct like the periodic table could be altered to factor in new discoveries, man made products, and multiple dimensions - though the elements themselves will not change.    

Peter 

[BaalChatzaf]

6 hours ago, Peter said:

Truth or dare? In the preface to “How We Know,” Harry Binswanger wrote: Mankind has existed for 400,000 years but 395,000 of those years were consumed by the Stone Age. The factor that freed men from endless toil and early death, the root cause of the elevated level of existence we now take for granted, is one precious value: *knowledge.* The painfully acquired knowledge of how to master nature, how to organize social existence, and how to understand himself is what enabled man to rise from the cave to the skyscraper, from warring clans to a global economy, from an average lifespan of less than 30 years to one approaching 80. end quote

 

Part of reason is contextualism. Even a simply understood mental construct like the periodic table could be altered to factor in new discoveries, man made products, and multiple dimensions - though the elements themselves will not change.    

Peter 

Some time between  12,000 years ago and now the human race became "smart".  Part of becoming smart was removing the gods and demons from our perception and understanding of nature.   The removal process was not instantaneous. It took time an proceeded in stages. That removal  was finalized by the Ionian Greeks.   They removed the Gods, Demons and Ghosts  from nature and left only forces and laws and primordial substances (what they called the elements).  That was the beginning of what we now call (physical) science. The brave Ionians said that the Gods have nothing to do with the wind, the rain, the sunlight and the heavens.  They replaced the supernatural factors with forces which still had quaint names like love and strife (a residual anthropomorphizing analogizing forces to  human impulse).  But they took the supernatural persona out of the picture and left only abstract entities and real events. Even in modern times we talk about  sub-atomic particles "feeling" forces.  A quaint way of speaking, and no harm as long as it is not taken literally.  

[Peter]

Ba’al poetically wrote: . . . They removed the Gods, Demons and Ghosts from nature and left only forces and laws and primordial substances (what they called the elements). That was the beginning of what we now call (physical) science . . . . they took the supernatural persona out of the picture and left only abstract entities and real events. end quote

And no matter the catastrophe, we must leave a discoverable record of what we know, for future humans. A smart, past method of keeping knowledge was to write it in stone. And that would still be good insurance.

Human evolution has slowed with increased survivability. Evolution will continue through a slower version of survival of the fittest,  and increases in births in some populations and gene pools. But evolution will dramatically continue though the engineering of our genetic codes. That has started and will continue. It isn’t racism but a form of (Elitism? Species-ism?)

Candidate Trump has been accused of claiming genetic superiority, as did aviator Charles Lindbergh, who fathered several children of selected Nazi women before war was declared. And there are always the chosen people, the Jews, who may be rated higher as a group with higher average IQ, but lower in athletic ability. I think a sense of unearned pride in heritage is normal behavior for humans. Members of MENSA seem to find ways to bring up their sainthood.

Peter        

[RobinReborn]

9 hours ago, Peter said:

Truth or dare? In the preface to “How We Know,” Harry Binswanger wrote: Mankind has existed for 400,000 years but 395,000 of those years were consumed by the Stone Age.

 

I am wondering whether Mr. Binswanger provided a citation for that claim.  To my understanding many experts would use different figures.

[BaalChatzaf]

15 minutes ago, RobinReborn said:

 

I am wondering whether Mr. Binswanger provided a citation for that claim.  To my understanding many experts would use different figures.

Bronze work goes back at least 5500 years.  Once  various societies went to agricultural mode the demand for sturdy and durable implements pushed the development of metallurgy.  Scythes were among the earliest metal tools made.  You made say that man beat his scythes and pruning hooks into swords and spears. 

[Peter]

Why does Ba’al have a minus one by his logo? I would rate him at least as a “pi.”

I think there have been human *start up* super clans and civilizations, living, dying – all leaving few traces for perhaps a million years. Not the Aztecs, Romans and Egyptians of course. They knew how to leave a trace! There certainly could have been non human civilizations before the last extinction level event that killed most of the dino’s. Who knows, when traces can be wiped clean by hydrogen bombs, asteroids, tsunami’s and the lowly vegetable and microbiological life?

I think humans have seeded the planet with a sentient gene pool and now we need to colonize and seed the galaxy.

Peter 

[BaalChatzaf]

4 hours ago, Peter said:

Why does Ba’al have a minus one by his logo? I would rate him at least as a “pi.”

I think there have been human *start up* super clans and civilizations, living, dying – all leaving few traces for perhaps a million years. Not the Aztecs, Romans and Egyptians of course. They knew how to leave a trace! There certainly could have been non human civilizations before the last extinction level event that killed most of the dino’s. Who knows, when traces can be wiped clean by hydrogen bombs, asteroids, tsunami’s and the lowly vegetable and microbiological life?

I think humans have seeded the planet with a sentient gene pool and now we need to colonize and seed the galaxy.

Peter 

Good luck in seeding the galaxy.  The fast vehicle ever launched by humans would require 20,000 years to reach the nearest star (other than our sun).  Alpha Centuri is a mere 4 l.y. distant from us

[RobinReborn]

On 4/15/2016 at 11:44 PM, BaalChatzaf said:

Bronze work goes back at least 5500 years.  Once  various societies went to agricultural mode the demand for sturdy and durable implements pushed the development of metallurgy.  Scythes were among the earliest metal tools made.  You made say that man beat his scythes and pruning hooks into swords and spears. 

 

Yes, and who knows how far back woodworking goes?  Obviously advances in metallurgy allowed for better woodworking tools, but you can make wood tools using stone tools.  Obviously the wood is going to rot eventually, but the knowledge on how to make the tool can be passed between humans.

[BaalChatzaf]

On 4/14/2016 at 4:00 PM, Peter said:

Ba’al poetically wrote: . . . They removed the Gods, Demons and Ghosts from nature and left only forces and laws and primordial substances (what they called the elements). That was the beginning of what we now call (physical) science . . . . they took the supernatural persona out of the picture and left only abstract entities and real events. end quote

And no matter the catastrophe, we must leave a discoverable record of what we know, for future humans. A smart, past method of keeping knowledge was to write it in stone. And that would still be good insurance.

Human evolution has slowed with increased survivability. Evolution will continue through a slower version of survival of the fittest,  and increases in births in some populations and gene pools. But evolution will dramatically continue though the engineering of our genetic codes. That has started and will continue. It isn’t racism but a form of (Elitism? Species-ism?)

Candidate Trump has been accused of claiming genetic superiority, as did aviator Charles Lindbergh, who fathered several children of selected Nazi women before war was declared. And there are always the chosen people, the Jews, who may be rated higher as a group with higher average IQ, but lower in athletic ability. I think a sense of unearned pride in heritage is normal behavior for humans. Members of MENSA seem to find ways to bring up their sainthood.

Peter        

Cultural Evolution has outpaced  biological evolution by natural selection.   When humans actively restructure the human genome natural evolution will be replaced by  deliberate human design.  Which is not necessarily Good News.  See  the motion picture  "Forbidden Planet". 

[Brant Gaede]

On 4/15/2016 at 0:57 PM, BaalChatzaf said:

Good luck in seeding the galaxy.  The fast vehicle ever launched by humans would require 20,000 years to reach the nearest star (other than our sun).  Alpha Centuri is a mere 4 l.y. distant from us

It would take about half a billion years to do the whole galaxy. Worthless endeavor. Some trillionaire might do it someday. If it works nothing really changes. We'll be toast long before if for no reason than this planet will be virtually uninhabitable in 200-300 million years for continental drift and then too hot a sun. It won't work, of course. There may not be one more decent planet for human life in the whole galaxy. There is also not only the time of distance but the tiny slice of time on earth that made room for us. So the perfect planet is reached except you then have to wait half a billion years for it to ripen up and throw open its arms only to find some being down there is waiting--with guns. War of the Worlds. Humans get defeated by bacteria.

--Brant

sin loi

 

[william.scherk]

5 hours ago, Pumpkin Eater said:

Charles Lindbergh, who fathered several children of selected Nazi women before war was declared.

Cite?

Edited June 3, 2016 by william.scherk
Attribution error

[Brant Gaede]

10 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

Cite?

Bob did not say that.

--Brant

[Peter]

37 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

Cite?

By Bojan Pancevski in Munich 12:01AM BST 29 May 2005. The extraordinary tangled love life of the American aviator Charles Lindbergh, the first pilot to fly non-stop across the Atlantic, has been revealed by the three illegitimate children whose existence he kept secret for almost 20 years. They have disclosed intimate details about Lindbergh's affairs in which he fathered children not only by their mother, Brigitte, but also her sister, Marietta, and, allegedly, his private secretary. Dyrk and David Hesshaimer and their sister, Astrid Bouteuil, who are now middle-aged, were born and grew up in Germany without ever being told their father's true identity. They were recognised as Lindbergh's children only in 2003 after DNA tests proved that they were related. In a new book, The Secret Life of Charles A Lindbergh, they reveal how the dashing aviator's 17-year relationship with Brigitte lasted even after he fathered two children with her sister, Marietta.

Although Lindbergh had professed admiration for Nazi Germany in the 1930s and supported ideas about eugenics, his passion for the women outweighed any prejudice: the book reveals that both sisters suffered walking disabilities as a result of childhood illness. I am aware that our actions have tainted the image of an impeccable American hero," said Astrid, 44. "But they also reveal that a man once thought of as emotionless and unattainable was in fact a caring and loving father." Lindbergh was 55 and seemingly happily married to his American wife, Anne Morrow, when he met Brigitte and Marietta at a dinner party in Munich in 1957.

He and Anne had six children, their marriage apparently surviving the tragic death of their son, Charles, who at 20 months old was abducted and killed in 1932. Yet according to Rudolf Schroeck, the book's author, over dinner Lindbergh fell for Brigitte, a 31-year-old hatmaker.

"The sisters were friends of his secretary, Valeska, with whom he was already embroiled in a relationship," said Schroeck, who drew on more than 150 letters and photographs sent to Brigitte by Lindbergh that were discovered years after his death.

Their tempestuous affair ended only with his death in 1974. Although Lindbergh did not live in Germany, he regularly visited Brigitte in Munich and took her to his secret flat in Rome, previously used for trysts with Valeska. When the children were born, he carried on visiting his new family but never told them his real name. "He visited about four times a year for a few days, and made sure they had a wonderful time," Schroeck said. "He took them on trips to the country and told stories of his travels. He never failed to meet his financial duties towards their mother, for whom he built a house.

"They were told their father was an American writer, Careu Kent. She made them promise never to mention him to anyone, even friends or family, saying he would not come back if they did."

In spite of what Schroeck calls this "stigma of silence", David Hesshaimer, 38, said that his mother seemed content - even after Lindbergh's affair with her sister. You could see how happy and excited my mother was when she spoke about him," Mr Hesshaimer said. "I could see how intimate they were." Lindbergh's sons by Marietta - Vago, 45, and Christoph, 39 - have remained silent about their parents, in accordance with their mother's wishes. According to Schroeck, Lindbergh also had two children with Valeska but their identities are unknown. None of the three women married. Mr Schroeck said: "Valeska and Marietta have not taken part in the book as they want to honour the vow of secrecy given to Lindbergh."

Brigitte's children remained faithful to the same vow until their mother died in 2001, when they decided to speak out about the man they always suspected was their father. "The Lindbergh family were understandably shocked at the news and refused to believe it, particularly as both the Hesshaimer sisters were disabled," said Schroeck.

"Lindbergh subscribed to the teachings of eugenics and he believed in breeding healthy children from healthy parents. It was very surprising for his family to learn that he had fathered children to two disabled women who were unable to walk properly."

It was in 1927 that Lindbergh, a 25-year-old college drop-out, flew solo to Paris to become the most celebrated man on earth. Winston Churchill said he was "… all that a man should say, all that a man should do, and all that a man should be".

Within 15 years, however, Lindbergh had become a pariah, cast as an anti-Semite and Nazi sympathiser. In the 1930s, Lindbergh made several visits to Nazi Germany to report on the Luftwaffe for the US military.

Public opinion turned when he accepted a medal from Hermann Goering, saying that to return it would be an "unnecessary insult". Lindberg later recommended that the US negotiate a neutrality pact with Hitler.

In 1941, he accused "the Jewish race" of being behind the drive for America to enter the war. "We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we must look out for ours," he told a rally.

Lindbergh spent his final years on the Hawaiian island of Maui, where he died of cancer in August 1974.

Astrid said: "People may wonder about his treatment of his wife and my mother, but the fact that we exist testifies to the fact that he was simply a man - not a hero."

[william.scherk]

5 hours ago, I make shit up said:

Charles Lindbergh, who fathered several children of selected Nazi women before war was declared.

In other words, the women were not Nazis, and were not "selected" from Nazi ranks -- and the children featured in the story you hastily podge were born after the man met their mother in 1957 -- which, sure enough was before was declared in Angola.

Sloppy, Peter, but in line with your repulsive racialist notions about Neegroyds.

If you get three things so wrong in a single clause of a sentence, and don't fess up to the errors ... can you give us lesson in interpreting such  claims, please? 

Hmmmm.

And another thing: are you forever unable to give a reference to your copy-pasted material?  Why can't you put in practice that one reasonable little trick? FFS.

Edited June 3, 2016 by william.scherk
Added fulmination; added emphasis; removed fulmination. Glad Brant is up.

[Peter]

Ba’al wrote: Cultural Evolution has outpaced biological evolution by natural selection.   When humans actively restructure the human genome natural evolution will be replaced by deliberate human design.  Which is not necessarily Good News.  See the motion picture "Forbidden Planet". end quote

We could design humans to be sounder and more resistant to disease and radiation. And we can build them smarter, and then educate them well, and instill in them a rational sense of ethics. I know China’s one baby policy led to that country having too many males, so stupidity is always around, but I think the process can be refined by a group of futurists, scientists, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers.

Admiral Ba’al. Please report to the Enterprise for the return trip to Star Fleet Academy . . .  . The crew will be throwing a party upon take off to celebrate your 200th birthday.

Peter      

[BaalChatzaf]

10 hours ago, william.scherk said:

Cite?

http://sites.mnhs.org/historic-sites/charles-lindbergh-historic-site/lindberghs-double-life

[JTM]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 11:30 AM, Roger Bissell said:

And then there are the (proposed) laws making it a crime to disagree with "established science," such as the (bogus) theory of man-made climate change. Those two are "scientific laws," in a manner of speaking, and I find them much more troubling and worthy of concern than the kind being discussed here. But carry on...

REB

Not to change the most recent subject matter posted, but my neighbor just earlier today stated that the very idea of human activity causing global warming is something that has been completely fabricated... that it's absurd & unrealistic...

By the tone of his voice, he was quite passionate about it.

I asked him if he thought global warming was even possible?     He said 'not by us'

I then asked him if he knew about the fact that Venus is hotter than Mercury, because of "runaway" global warming

He didn't know about it and did not care to hear that global warming on Venus is very real indeed.

I then told him that Venus was hot enough to melt lead, at night or daytime, whereas Mercury's daytime temperature wasn't even as hot as Venuses night temp - & that Mercury's night temperature was 1000 degrees colder than Venuses -- ALL DUE TO THE REALITY THAT VENUS HAS EXTREME "RUNAWAY" GLOBAL WARMING & CURRENTLY INHOSPITABLE HOT HOUSE CONDITIONS.

As for global human activity making any impact on global temperatures -- just consider the fact that since the very first motor was turned on (at the start of the industrial revolution) -- that in all that time (100+ years) - there has never been a moment that one or the others had not been running, continually, exhausting emissions into Earth's atmosphere.- NON STOP! for over a century!...

Well, that has to have had some kind of impact, considering a single car running inside of a closed garage, can kill us in how short of time?

Plus, Global dimming effects haven't even been considered here. Without this opposite phenomenon occurring alongside global warming -- then temperatures today would be MUCH HOTTER! 

There are much more facts that all together -suggests that human caused global warming is most certainly very REAL.

JTM

 

[Peter]

William? Sorry if the first story I came upon on the web about Lindy’s love for the Nazi’s wasn’t 100 percent factual. Is none of it true? And as to the other thread about what if Roark had descended from Indians in Bombay, no one contradicted the facts, they just *denied* the facts. As my imaginary pal, Jack said, “You can’t handle the truth.”

JTM wrote: There are much more facts that all together -suggests that human caused global warming is most certainly very REAL. end quote

The “heat island effect” caused by buildings, cement and asphalt are very real. Be suspicious of any *fad* that furthers a political agenda, like global warming. I would not mess with the atmosphere but we could duplicate the cooling effects of a volcano within a month. Application of soot every few years what cool the earth for decades or even centuries. Every time a big volcano blasts off, scientists are worried particles will be thrust into the stratosphere where they would not be touched by rain, and so remain up there deflecting sunlight.  

Look up Tracinski’s article, called Climategate. Climatologists who conform their thinking to the global warming theory get the grants from government. Honest scientists are shut off from the money. This scam is called, “Climategate.”

Peter

Robert Tracinski wrote about “Climategate,” in realclearpolitics.com:

For more than a decade, we've been told that there is a scientific "consensus" that humans are causing global warming, that "the debate is over" and all "legitimate" scientists acknowledge the truth of global warming. Now we know what this "consensus" really means. What it means is: the fix is in . . . . This is an enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act. Suborned by billions of taxpayer dollars devoted to climate research, dozens of prominent scientists have established a criminal racket in which they seek government money . . . . This is the scandal of the century. It needs to be thoroughly investigated. end quote

From Wikipedia: The year 1816 is known as the Year Without a Summer (also the Poverty Year, the Summer that Never Was, Year There Was No Summer, and Eighteen Hundred and Froze to Death^[1]), because of severe climate abnormalities that caused average global temperatures to decrease by 0.4–0.7 °C (0.7–1.3 °F).^[2] This resulted in major food shortages across the Northern Hemisphere.^[3]

Evidence suggests that the anomaly was predominantly a volcanic winter event caused by the massive 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora in the Dutch East Indies, the largest eruption in at least 1,300 years after the extreme weather events of 535–536. The Earth had already been in a centuries-long period of global cooling that started in the 14th century. Known today as the Little Ice Age, it had already caused considerable agricultural distress in Europe. The Little Ice Age's existing cooling was aggravated by the eruption of Tambora, which occurred during its concluding decades.^[4] end quote

[william.scherk]

 

12 minutes ago, Peter said:

13 hours ago, william.scherk said:

18 hours ago, I make shit up said:

fathered several children of selected Nazi women before war was declared.

In other words, the women were not Nazis, and were not "selected" from Nazi ranks -- and the children featured in the story you hastily podge were born after the man met their mother in 1957

William? Sorry if the first story I came upon on the web about Lindy’s love for the Nazi’s wasn’t 100 percent factual.

No, Peter. The story was factual. Your line was not.  The  line was a confection, bullschmutz in all aspects. Please make a correction in your head if it you find it  too difficult to admit making shit up.