Tom Paine's Voice Needed Again...December 23, 1776

[Selene]

From The Crisis:

"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER" and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.

Whether the independence of the continent was declared too soon, or delayed too long, I will not now enter into as an argument; my own simple opinion is, that had it been eight months earlier, it would have been much better. We did not make a proper use of last winter, neither could we, while we were in a dependent state. However, the fault, if it were one, was all our own [NOTE]; we have none to blame but ourselves. But no great deal is lost yet. All that Howe has been doing for this month past, is rather a ravage than a conquest, which the spirit of the Jerseys, a year ago, would have quickly repulsed, and which time and a little resolution will soon recover.

I have as little superstition in me as any man living, but my secret opinion has ever been, and still is, that God Almighty will not give up a people to military destruction, or leave them unsupportedly to perish, who have so earnestly and so repeatedly sought to avoid the calamities of war, by every decent method which wisdom could invent. Neither have I so much of the infidel in me, as to suppose that He has relinquished the government of the world, and given us up to the care of devils; and as I do not, I cannot see on what grounds the ______________ can look up to heaven for help against us: a common murderer, a highwayman, or a house-breaker, has as good a pretence as he.

'Tis surprising to see how rapidly a panic will sometimes run through a country. All nations and ages have been subject to them. Britain has trembled like an ague at the report of a French fleet of flat-bottomed boats; and in the fourteenth [fifteenth] century the whole English army, after ravaging the kingdom of France, was driven back like men petrified with fear; and this brave exploit was performed by a few broken forces collected and headed by a woman, Joan of Arc. Would that heaven might inspire some Jersey maid to spirit up her countrymen, and save her fair fellow sufferers from ravage and ravishment! Yet panics, in some cases, have their uses; they produce as much good as hurt. Their duration is always short; the mind soon grows through them, and acquires a firmer habit than before. But their peculiar advantage is, that they are the touchstones of sincerity and hypocrisy, and bring things and men to light, which might otherwise have lain forever undiscovered. In fact, they have the same effect on secret traitors, which an imaginary apparition would have upon a private murderer. They sift out the hidden thoughts of man, and hold them up in public to the world"

Are we not in the same Crisis today?

http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/index.htm

Damn can this man write...

A...

[turkeyfoot]

Those words stir in me a sense of something beyond my grasp and yet are heartfelt. They exalt a greater beings fairness in not allowing a fate to befall themselves.

Taking out all references to god, Paine is a good and motivated leader attempting to rally the troops.

Armageddon has been referenced too often to wake an average person from his slumber.

They had guns to fight foreign invaders.

We fight from within armed only with our wits.

"We" asked for it.

They didnt.

The crisis is bigger than anything that might be achieved by voting for president.

To judge whether we are in crisis would depend on when a person considered the question first.

From my point of view, there is little that can be undone, not on this forum.

Death and taxes, the two guarantees in life.

When was the last time taxes were repealed in real terms?

[Brant Gaede]

He made good use of "God" and he's not improved by the removal.

The same can be be said of The Declaration of Independence.

Atheism is still being ginned up culturally today and not too well. It has no place in rhetorical and propagandistic documents for general public appeal.

--Brant

[Guyau]

.

In The Age of Reason, Paine writes that “the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and now mean, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues . . . .” What are they? and how do we know they are God’s? Was there in Paine’s day or since a universal recognition of what are those true virtues and what truly are The Rights of Man? A growing number of citizens in this country in our own time doubt or definitely deny there is any such thing as the God of Paine. Many an economically minded intellectual today eschews the concept of Rights as itself irrational. I suggest that reliance on the name of God, even when not narrowly sectarian, can head in most any earthly direction and is not today, if ever it was, a stout way of clarifying and preserving individual rights. Moreover, appeals to God commonly carry the assumption of the virtue of self-sacrifice, and that is no way to stand up for individual rights.

To Adam’s thought that Paine’s voice is needed today, I incline to think rather not. That voice is one I adore, but its context in America and in France was the making of revolutions against monarchial rule, such as the rule of “The Brute of England” in the American colonies. The King’s troops were here, and many civilians here were loyal to their traditional crown. A Paine voice today is likely to be one drumming some public problem that is not the chief one facing our nation at this time: the national debt. That is the great danger, and a Paine voice today is likely to be a distraction from it, rather than a call to its danger above all others.

[Brant Gaede]

Paine had balls.

[Selene]

Stephen:

Just substitute the Administrative State for the King and you will be fine.

A...

[turkeyfoot]

.

In The Age of Reason, Paine writes that “the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and now mean, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues . . . .” What are they? and how do we know they are God’s? Was there in Paine’s day or since a universal recognition of what are those true virtues and what truly are The Rights of Man? A growing number of citizens in this country in our own time doubt or definitely deny there is any such thing as the God of Paine. Many an economically minded intellectual today eschews the concept of Rights as itself irrational. I suggest that reliance on the name of God, even when not narrowly sectarian, can head in most any earthly direction and is not today, if ever it was, a stout way of clarifying and preserving individual rights. Moreover, appeals to God commonly carry the assumption of the virtue of self-sacrifice, and that is no way to stand up for individual rights.

To Adam’s thought that Paine’s voice is needed today, I incline to think rather not. That voice is one I adore, but its context in America and in France was the making of revolutions against monarchial rule, such as the rule of “The Brute of England” in the American colonies. The King’s troops were here, and many civilians here were loyal to their traditional crown. A Paine voice today is likely to be one drumming some public problem that is not the chief one facing our nation at this time: the national debt. That is the great danger, and a Paine voice today is likely to be a distraction from it, rather than a call to its danger above all others.

Thats an interesting take Stephen, for me. The notion that some historical figures and proponents dont deserve the feet of clay status that some hunger for in the absence of real heroes or the alternative status when the regard held for some borders on hostility. I especially like hearing about the real deal regarding people who have have been depicted wrongly or inaccurately. I had the idea that he spoke out strongly, did he risk his life and fortune in doing so?

[Selene]

...did he risk his life and fortune in doing so?

He had no fortune to risk.

His publications meant he would have been hung as a traitor by the British.

[Guyau]

With his composition Common Sense, Paine became well known. The tract was very popular among Americans. There is a sense in which Paine sacrificed some fortune for the cause; he would accept no compensation for his revolutionary writings, in order to keep their price low, and this continued his poverty. In July 1776, Paine joined the American army as an aide-de-camp to Gen. Nathan Greene. It was then he composed the series of pamphlets called The Crisis. They were addressed to Washington and his troops, but to all Americans as well. After our revolution, he was an American hero.

His composition The Rights of Man appeared in 1791. It argued the liberal cause to the English. It was a great popular success with them at the time, to the dissatisfaction of those in favor of the established, aristocratic order. George III’s Prime Minister William Pitt was throwing radicals into prison, and in 1791 charges of seditious writings were lodged against Paine. The mood in England was swinging to opposition of revolutionary change, and Paine’s effigy was burned in Essex. Paine had fled England to France in time to avoid the law. He was tried in abstentia of seditious libel and was outlawed from ever returning to Britain. He stayed in France for ten years, during which he got tangled up in their horrible politics of that time, which landed him in prison, where he began writing The Age of Reason. He favored their revolution, but opposed the Terror and the execution of the monarch. He got out of prison after a year, remained involved politically in France a while, then returned to America in 1802. Times had changed. He was no longer celebrated as the author of Common Sense, but reviled as author of the Godless Age of Reason. (Jefferson, at least, renewed his old ties with Paine.)

He died in 1809 and was buried in a pasture, with little public notice. The New York Citizen: "He had lived long, did some good, and much harm." Paine had shaped the world as few have done. An English radical William Cobbett ten years after Paine’s death had the bones dug up and shipped to England with a view to erecting a laudatory memorial. The bones reached Liverpool, and perhaps London, but anyway got lost. Naturally, some of us suspect the King. But Paine lives.

Just after the American Revolution, Paine was given 500 pounds by Pennsylvania and a farm in New Rochelle by New York.

[turkeyfoot]

"Paine’s voice is needed today, I incline to think rather not."

Its remarkable how even a man long since dead, a standard bearer of his time by fighting in deeds and thoughts, is regarded as not living up to an ideal. If as I understand things, he is remarkable for his convictions, in being against taxes which were in essence debt to the colonialists, (representative of national debt) I dont understand the basis for the sleight however small.

"After our revolution, he was an American hero."

Im a simple guy. He was regarded as a hero for a commitment to freedom. That is precisely the kind of voice needed in todays culture even if layered over with a belief in god.

I think the facts speak for themselves.

There are other American dead who are/were misrepresented by history. I was concerned that T Paine was one of them.

[Guyau]

TF,

If there are Paine voices today who devote that voice to achieving a balanced federal budget pronto and steadily reducing the national debt, I'm all for such voices of Paine. But if the voice of Paine is put to causes that defeat that purpose, I'm opposed.

The rhetoric of Paine can be put to many different causes. It can be used to increase all sorts of federal spending. And by the way, Paine himself used his voice with that effect, which was appropriate at the time, but not now, in my understanding of our situation. Indeed Paine wrote in Common Sense: "No nation ought to be without a debt. A national debt is a national bond; and when it bears no interest, is in no case a grievance." He seemed unrealistic about loans; there's going to be interest. Also, I should mention that Paine would favor governmental assistance to the poor. Paine's voice was then and could now be used to favor increases in many such programs.

On Paine's thinking about God and his rhetoric invoking the idea of God, I have the impression he changed between Common Sense and The Age of Reason. Anyway, my favorite passage by him from the earlier tract is: "But where says some is the King of America? I'll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havock of mankind like the Royal Brute of England!"

[Backlighting]

turkeyfoot says "Im a simple guy. He was regarded as a hero for a commitment to freedom. That is precisely the kind of voice needed in todays culture even if layered over with a belief in god"

Understood. There are voices though. Here's one on the floor of the U.S. Senate, quoting from Atlas Shrugged!

[Selene]

He is a good speaker when he does have that "serious" alien look!

"...and nothing less is human."

Nice find Joe

[Backlighting]

I really like much about him...he was influenced, in part, by the thick book.

-J

[Guyau]

.

Yes, good catch, Joe. Whoa, forget need for voice of Paine, there's a another voice today, one more rightly focused for our situation, behind this senator. I gather that Sen. Cruz is now most likely to become their nominee for Pres.

[Guyau]

Looking up for Sen. Cruz. It would be neat to have the general election dialogue and debates be between Sec. Clinton and this fellow. Real substance at issue and almost entirely opposite views.*

[BaalChatzaf]

On 1/5/2016 at 10:58 PM, Backlighting said:

I really like much about him...he was influenced, in part, by the thick book.

-J

He is influenced by another thick book, too.  The Bible.

[Backlighting]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

He is influenced by another thick book, too.  The Bible.

I hear you Baal. That is disappointing.

[Ellen Stuttle]

21 hours ago, Guyau said:

Looking up for Sen. Cruz. It would be neat to have the general election dialogue and debates be between Sec. Clinton and this fellow. Real substance at issue and almost entirely opposite views.*

Intellectually interesting for awhile, maybe.  But the biggest problem as I see it is that then the country would end up with the same 'ol, same 'ol power bloc/blockages running things, and with Ms. Clinton winning the election, and with the Republican cronies relieved at being able to continue raking in financial spoils.

Ellen

[BaalChatzaf]

12 hours ago, Backlighting said:

I hear you Baal. That is disappointing.

Paine was a Deist.  He disliked orthodox Christianity (i.e. the church and the various Protestant sects).  He denied Miracles.  He aligned with what was called in those days,  Natural Religion,  i.e. religion consistent with nature as observed.  Deists and Unitarians did that.  So Paine might have bought an argument from Design  but he would have denied revealed religion.  In a way I mis-stated the matter.  He  deconstructs the Bible as taken literally.  He was on the same wavelength in philosophical matters as Jefferson.  But he did believe in the Deist god,   you know,  The Reasonable God.  

Paine's importance should not be underestimated.  He pushed very hard for Independence and his essay  -The Cause-  was read aloud in the rebel camps.

Paine was one of the people who influence discouraged making a "deal"  with Britain similar to the one the Canadians made.  Ben Franklin was originally more in favor of making a Canadian type  "deal"  but he later changed his mind when he found out just how stubborn Parliament was.

[Selene]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Paine was a Deist.  He disliked orthodox Christianity (i.e. the church and the various Protestant sects).  He denied Miracles.  He aligned with what was called in those days,  Natural Religion,  i.e. religion consistent with nature as observed.  Deists and Unitarians did that.  So Paine might have bought an argument from Design  but he would have denied revealed religion.  In a way I mis-stated the matter.  He  deconstructs the Bible as taken literally.  He was on the same wavelength in philosophical matters as Jefferson.  But he did believe in the Deist god,   you know,  The Reasonable God.  

Paine's importance should not be underestimated.  He pushed very hard for Independence and his essay  -The Cause-  was read aloud in the rebel camps.

Paine was one of the people who influence discouraged making a "deal"  with Britain similar to the one the Canadians made.  Ben Franklin was originally more in favor of making a Canadian type  "deal"  but he later changed his mind when he found out just how stubborn Parliament was.

Thanks Bob.

He is probably in the top five of the most radical and pretty much my favorite.